As someone who has stuck with this game since launch I have become slightly concerned with the direction of PvE content going forward. I have come up with the 5 biggest things that I think would vastly improve the operations in this game. To avoid this becoming a wall of text I added the spoiler tags to hide my explanations of each point. Please read these before going to the comments because I believe some of them need context to understand what I am really saying.

1a. Nerf story mode Explosive Conflict down to the levels of story mode EV/KP.

1b. Change story mode Explosive Conflict to drop columi gear.

2. Make sure all story modes going forward follow 1a and 1b.

3. Do not obsolete old operations.

4. Wait two tiers to release nightmare modes.

5. Let F2P characters have access to story mode KP/EV and EC.

So those are my 5 points to preserve and improve PvE content for the future. Let me know what you guys think/

Agree on some, disagree on others.

1. EC SM nerf. Yes it should be accessible by all, but you would be shocked how many people are pugging it these days. However I agree it should be made a bit easier, but not as easy as EV/KP. It should keep the rakata drops otherwise casual raiders will feel no sense of gear progression. The whole idea is that you can do all storymodes without doing any hard or nightmares. It in itself is its own easy mode progression path.

Also regarding the nerf, I would say its fair enough to nerf it a bit after the next Operation is released.

About nightmare mode, 1 tier difference is fine imo. I enjoyed running EV and KP a bit recently after doing EC for so long. But yes having that long break from it makes it sort of fun again, especially since much of the mechanics may be tweaked etc.

Making all storymodes drop columi sure they'll always be accessible but new players will play with old players and the old ops might not be used as much as you think. Whereas as is, they got to climb the ladder. They can speed up the gear ladder using blackhole comms etc, but even still, the fastest way is still to go through the Ops.

And finally about f2p, they said they are still ironing out the details. But it was suggested at Gamescom that maybe EV or something would be given free as a teaser of raiding. Likewise it wouldn't be much of a stretch to give KP free too.

I disagree with EC SM point, but i do have one point i think would make operations better.

Cross faction ops. Imperials and Republic teaming up to take down a larger threat, i know id love it, and so would my guild.

I respectfully disagree on all your points.

What he said.

This would hardly help any PvE player that does Ops for challenge, not only for story. And endgame content is supposed to be heavly resticted for F2P, if they get EV SM they should be happy.

Cross faction ops. Imperials and Republic teaming up to take down a larger threat, i know id love it, and so would my guild.

This is something I would like to see, and would add a bit of new flavor to the ops that are available now.

Sounds like a horrible Idea, mostly changing loot to let F2P players have access to it.

Once I read that you wanted it dummied down and that it should drop columi I just stopped reading your post.

I like that your putting effort into finding a way to improve the game but in this case I just flat out disagree.

It should keep the rakata drops otherwise casual raiders will feel no sense of gear progression.

In my opinion the silent majority of casual raiders are less interested in doing operations for gear progression, they want to see the bosses, see the scenery, get a feel for the story. I am basing this just on what I hear from people around me so I clearly could be wrong, but I think casual raiders like the challenge of learning and seeing something new more than the gear grind. Maybe the story modes could drop gear that is cosmetically similar to the tier from which the operation came so there is something different to get in each one, but I would say it still should be columi level.

In my opinion the silent majority of casual raiders are less interested in doing operations for gear progression, they want to see the bosses, see the scenery, get a feel for the story. I am basing this just on what I hear from people around me so I clearly could be wrong, but I think casual raiders like the challenge of learning and seeing something new more than the gear grind. Maybe the story modes could drop gear that is cosmetically similar to the tier from which the operation came so there is something different to get in each one, but I would say it still should be columi level.

I get what you're saying, and if it were me if I didn't want the challenge of hard modes and just wanted to experience it all, I'd be happy with same loot maybe different looks etc. But I would be happier with my own gear progressing as I go through the raids.

However I also understand that by keeping it the way it is, endgamers have little incentive to visit the older ops apart from with alts. However New players will always have the fun of going through them in order instead of having 6 ops rewarding the same stat gear.

But! A perfect example of where I believe you're wrong regarding the gear is WoWs LFR system. I don't know if you've played it, but in a sense its similar to story mode. It is a system where the raids are made very easy, easier than story mode raids. And the purpose of it was to let all players experience the content.

Now you can go in wow forums and see the everlasting arguments about it. Many believe LFR should drop no loot, or low quality loot. Others (the masses of casuals) say no, they're happy with getting some of the best gear in the game while doing easymode raids.

And blizzard will never change it because in the end that's what's getting people into the raids week in week out.

Bioware are taking the more old fashioned approach where even on story mode some skill is required. However like I said, EC story should be nerfed a bit, AFTER Terror from Beyond comes out.To make it more accessible to the masses. The reason I don't believe they should be dumbed down too much prior to the next set of progression is because it ruins it for the others.

And by the others I don't mean the hardcore, I mean just normal competent players who are getting into raiding. They work hard to clear storymode and they then either keep raiding storymode on the next Op or they try hardmode. If you make storymode too easy (before the next Op is released at least) then the gap between story and hard will be too big. It will be too much of a challenge for the casual raiders or new raiders because of the massive increase in difficulty.

Anyway I'm getting bit off-topic, but Blizzard have been through all that. Players often say they will love to do it for the experience etc, even if it dropped crap loot. But the experience only lasts so long. They need the carrot on the stick (Gear) to keep them coming in week in week out. Honestly and this applies to a lot of stuff in general, sometimes players don't always know what they want. They think they do, but when it actually happens, they realise it doesn't always work out as great as they thought it would be in their heads.

In my opinion the silent majority of casual raiders are less interested in doing operations for gear progression, they want to see the bosses, see the scenery, get a feel for the story. I am basing this just on what I hear from people around me so I clearly could be wrong, but I think casual raiders like the challenge of learning and seeing something new more than the gear grind. Maybe the story modes could drop gear that is cosmetically similar to the tier from which the operation came so there is something different to get in each one, but I would say it still should be columi level.

I get what you're saying, and if it were me if I didn't want the challenge of hard modes and just wanted to experience it all, I'd be happy with same loot maybe different looks etc. But I would be happier with my own gear progressing as I go through the raids.

However I also understand that by keeping it the way it is, endgamers have little incentive to visit the older ops apart from with alts. However New players will always have the fun of going through them in order instead of having 6 ops rewarding the same stat gear.

But! A perfect example of where I believe you're wrong regarding the gear is WoWs LFR system. I don't know if you've played it, but in a sense its similar to story mode. It is a system where the raids are made very easy, easier than story mode raids. And the purpose of it was to let all players experience the content.

Now you can go in wow forums and see the everlasting arguments about it. Many believe LFR should drop no loot, or low quality loot. Others (the masses of casuals) say no, they're happy with getting some of the best gear in the game while doing easymode raids.

And blizzard will never change it because in the end that's what's getting people into the raids week in week out.

Bioware are taking the more old fashioned approach where even on story mode some skill is required. However like I said, EC story should be nerfed a bit, AFTER Terror from Beyond comes out.To make it more accessible to the masses. The reason I don't believe they should be dumbed down too much prior to the next set of progression is because it ruins it for the others.

And by the others I don't mean the hardcore, I mean just normal competent players who are getting into raiding. They work hard to clear storymode and they then either keep raiding storymode on the next Op or they try hardmode. If you make storymode too easy (before the next Op is released at least) then the gap between story and hard will be too big. It will be too much of a challenge for the casual raiders or new raiders because of the massive increase in difficulty.

Anyway I'm getting bit off-topic, but Blizzard have been through all that. Players often say they will love to do it for the experience etc, even if it dropped crap loot. But the experience only lasts so long. They need the carrot on the stick (Gear) to keep them coming in week in week out. Honestly and this applies to a lot of stuff in general, sometimes players don't always know what they want. They think they do, but when it actually happens, they realise it doesn't always work out as great as they thought it would be in their heads.

I

Now you can go in wow forums and see the everlasting arguments about it. Many believe LFR should drop no loot, or low quality loot. Others (the masses of casuals) say no, they're happy with getting some of the best gear in the game while doing easymode raids.

 

And blizzard will never change it because in the end that's what's getting people into the raids week in week out.

This is the main reason why I said silent majority. I think the "casuals" you are referring to, blowing up WoW forums, are actually in the minority and benefit by being really loud. I think this scares a lot of devs into thinking that more people feel this way than actually do. I think most people play the game to play the game and loot is just a nice bonus; a means to an end. I think a great example of this is Blizzard's DIablo III. At launch the game was the best selling ever and everyone was excited to get their loot and get their dungeon crawl on. But people soon realized once you played through the game once or twice you've basically done the whole game. You can spend hours and hours grinding up the best gear, but a ton of people just didn't care too. Active players in Diablo dropped off accordingly. If people had the urge to get shinnies as bad as the WoW forums make it seem I think Diablo would be way more active than it currently is.

I will be honest, I came up with these ideas while hoping that Bioware would not make the same mistakes that drove me out of WoW. The old republic is not wow and it never has to be. WoW had the luxury of being the first of its kind (and no forum trolls I am not saying wow was the first mmo). People have years and years of ties build in to WoW. Doing exactly what WoW does is not the answer. The answer is make this game its own thing and say the hell with what WoW did. Innovation is bred by learning from other's mistakes while not imitating their successes. Developing swtor with the same principles as WoW has not worked as well as people had hoped this far, why keep trying to copy them now.

Yeah I guess there's no way to truly know without carrying out a survey over a big sample of players. But even then I suspect most people lie. They say they will enjoy it, but the type of players these are, they will play the Ops 2-3 times and then they'll want the next one released already (again that's my opinion), so the only way to really find out would beto do it. And well, maybe they should try it, but they'd likely see it as too much of a gamble

And again, its just not fair on the in between raiders. You can't split people into hardcore and casual. There are many many players who're in between. Infact there and probably thousands who don't have time to be crazy hardcore but are very good players. These are the ones that do storymode, and push themselves to try Hardmode for fun and challenge. If the difficulty gap between them is too large, therrs no way to bridge the gap. You would be restricting those players cause if they then wanted to progress onto hardmode, they would have to go back to the start, EV/KP hm and work their way up again.

One thing I do agree on though is not to try and copy WoW inch for inch. There's much great things they've done, but much bad aswell. Half their success was based on the time/era they launched in.

BW are trying to make a more Burning Crusade style MMO while still catering to casuals. It's tricky, but for the record if anything as ridiculous as LFR came to swtor I'd consider leaving it may get a lot of people into raids, but I think its ruined much of WoWs raiding community.

You can't split people into hardcore and casual. There are many many players who're in between. In fact there and probably thousands who don't have time to be crazy hardcore but are very good players.

This is something I will 100% agree with you on. The more difficulty levels the better, but I think this can be achieved by not obsoleting content. EV/KP is a great introductory to hardmodes operations. EC is a step up in difficulty. When Terror from Beyond is released I would be okay if they increased some of the enrage timers a bit in EC just to make the gap between EV/KP and EC a little less drastic. I would hope TB is a little bit more complex than EC and the operation after TB is another step up. This step ladder is it's own difficulty setting in my eyes. People can see all the content they would like in story mode, but have to follow a difficulty progression in order to do "true" raiding content. If you are good enough to do EV/KP HM you can step up to EC HM then TB HM and so on. This is very similar to levels in a more traditional game. Each level builds on the last to be more challenging. Story mode lets you run through every level with little resistance so you can see all the neat stuff, but hard modes will test your abilities on each level before you can pass to the next.

Keep in mind that creating easier access to better gear is in itself a nerf to all raiding content in the game. With the increase to access of black hole comms that BW implemented recently, each piece obtained by a casual player exponentially made story mode EC that much easier to clear.

It doesn't always have to be about nerfing the boss fights themselves to allow easier access to SM raids. Just by making the characters themselves stronger, you make it easier to jump up the latter of progression (EV/KP becomes super easy, EC becomes easy, etc...)

Keep in mind that creating easier access to better gear is in itself a nerf to all raiding content in the game. With the increase to access of black hole comms that BW implemented recently, each piece obtained by a casual player exponentially made story mode EC that much easier to clear.

I don't think the bh system in it of itself is extremely damaging either. I think it's good to have some level of progression is for someone who barely does anything. BH gear is higher item level, but is often times just straight worse than rakata or even columi in some cases. I think the real problem would be if a new higher level currency is created with Terror from Beyond and replaces bh coms for things like dailies, much like how valor points work in WoW when a new teir comes out.

I would actually be very interested in a dev response to that. What is the plan for commendations once Terror from Beyond is released? Will daily heroics drop the next tier of coms or is black hole the highest com that will be obtainable without raiding TB?

KP=Karaga's Palace

EV=Eternity Vault

EC=Explosive Conflict

BH=Black Hole

Any others you're not sure about?

HM = Hard Mode

NiM or NM = Nightmare Mode

SM = Story Mode

1a. Nerf story mode Explosive Conflict down to the levels of story mode EV/KP.

 

1b. Change story mode Explosive Conflict to drop columi gear.

Come Terror From Beyond, Denova SM and HM will most likely be slightly nerfed. However, putting them on the same difficulty as EV/KP isn't that good of an idea. The biggest reason why is that the operation would require mechanics to be cut. The mechanic centric fights are actually why Denova is a lot better experience AND tougher overall than EV and KP. I could see a reasonable nerf being to cut out trash encounters - since it's mostly just filler.

1b. is legitimately crazy, btw, unless Denova was nerfed so hard a group of 8 or 16 fresh 50's could do it with relative ease.

2. Make sure all story modes going forward follow 1a and 1b.

If we use general MMO development progression along with what we've seen in SWTOR, SM operations 2 tiers behind the highest gear tier will be nerfed to the point that bugs will be non-existent and it should allow a pug group to complete it with ease. The gear these operations drop won't change, and in fact, the drop rate of items on the tier the operation was on will be improved to allow people to gear up for HM's 1 tier behind the highest and the current progression Operation.

3. Do not obsolete old operations.

Considering that SWTOR will keep a tight progression path (for now), and that Terror From Beyond SM will be dropping Campaign (maybe), the operations for now won't be obsolete. People will just burn through them faster because they most likely want to make it to the highest gear tier as fast as possible. People still do EV and KP in order to get some Rakata from HM for Denova. People will still do Denova HM to get Campaign for Terror From Beyond. They just won't spend forever on each tier.

Operations become obsolete when a level cap is raised, though. WOW presents a good way for these old operations to stay alive by creating a Heroic mode of them that has the level of all the mobs bumped to the level cap. SWTOR has already demonstrated that it's capable of this through flashpoints.

4. Wait two tiers to release nightmare modes.

There's no reason to postpone finishing an operation that long, especially when the current amount of content in SWTOR is very low.

If the devs live up to their promises (but when have they have recently?!), then Denova NiM will actually subvert common (or, most likely, nearly exploitative and safe) strategies for Denova HM in order to make the new mode a legitimate new tier in progression. And, if people don't like that, then Terror From Beyond should be available at the same time or soon after.

5. Let F2P characters have access to story mode KP/EV and EC.

Honestly, if SWTOR wants the F2P model to work, they either need to provide big incentives for free players to subscribe or pay extra money OR they switch to a completely non-subscription model. Until the non-subscription model comes, Operations need to be severely limited to free players. However, a good way to get money from those players would be to charge a small (like, $0.50 per day or something) to do an Operation while having only Eternity Vault Story Mode available to do as a pug through the LFG tool if they never pay.

Come Terror From Beyond, Denova SM and HM will most likely be slightly nerfed. However, putting them on the same difficulty as EV/KP isn't that good of an idea. The biggest reason why is that the operation would require mechanics to be cut. The mechanic centric fights are actually why Denova is a lot better experience AND tougher overall than EV and KP. I could see a reasonable nerf being to cut out trash encounters - since it's mostly just filler.

 

1b. is legitimately crazy, btw, unless Denova was nerfed so hard a group of 8 or 16 fresh 50's could do it with relative ease.

Reading this makes me think you don't really get the whole concept of what I am saying. Yes, I think a group of fresh 50s (with some hard mode flashpoint gear) should be able to experience every operation that is released. I did not say that mechanics had to be removed or anything like that, mechanics can just be tuned down damage and health wise. In accordance with this scale down the gear rewarded should be scaled down as well.

I honestly think TOR should scrap it's current pve endgame design choices and copy LOTRO's. To elaborate, I'll list exactly what i think they should do:

1) Move from Vertical Gear Progression to Horizontal Gear Progression

Vertical Gear Progression (tiered) is old fashioned and should become obsolete. In the modern day of MMO's, developers should have realised that tiered gear sucks. It segregates the community, it makes lower tier content obsolete too quickly. It removes choice.

Horizontal gear progression is much better. Basically, all endgame gear would have roughly equivalent stats. The actual sets from raids are differentiated by set bonuses, stat distribution and cosmetic appearance. By having unique (and good) set bonuses on all sets, it encourages you to complete all raids. Being able to mix and match gear and set bonuses is much more interesting than what we have now.

There obviously needs to be minor vertical progression, but this is simple: leveling gear -> pre-raid gear -> raid gear. Thats it. Make it easy to get the pre-raid gear too.

2) Random Drops

Add random drops to all bosses. These could be pieces of armour, weapons, implants etc. Whatever. Make them rare, make them good, make them different to set gear. Random drops are both an incentive and a reward for repeating content. Adding earpiece/implant random drops to all flashpoints would instantly make people grind them and make them feel happy when they win!

3) Consistent Difficulty Settings

Combined with horizontal gear progression, you need to make difficulty settings consistant. Here is my opinion on the matter:

a) Story Mode = Equivalent to current EV SM. Easy, beatable by 90% of the population, requires *some* co-ordination but can just be brute-forced if needed. Loot should be pre-raid gear with low probability drop rate on random stuff.

b) Hard Mode = Drops raid level loot. Should be equivalent to KP Hardmode now. Only drops one piece per kill with medium probability of random loot drop.

c) Nightmare Mode (Challenge Mode) = Difficulty should be similar to EC HM but be more challenge / mechanics based. Check out LOTRO's Tier 2 Challenges. These were things like "Complete Wound Wing in 7 Minutes" or "Kill Boss whilst always taking his avoidable damage". Its basically the same content, same difficulty, but with added challenge to prove you are uber. Loot should be double drop + 100% chance of random loot drop.

4) Add More Stats

Ok, so this one is just my personal preference but my god, TOR combat is ridiculously simple! Its like the game was designed for 8 year olds who can't read. As a DPS class, the only thing I ever have to worry about is gearing for maximum DPS. As a tank class, all I have to worry about is gearing for mitigation. Its just too simpe.

In my opinion, you need to add a system to modify stats, i.e. LOTRO's trait system.

In LOTRO, you could switch your traits around (deeds, virtues, class and legendary) to dramatically alter your character. Class deeds are the equivalent of our talent trees here. The other 3 types of traits are unique. Essentially, they are alternative ways to change your characters stats.

Now, where this comes in useful is building your character for certain raids. For example, when you went to the raid Ost Dunhoth to do the Shadow wing, you knew you would be taking a LOT of shadow damage, which in turn is tactical. So, before doing the shadow wing, you would switch your traits around in order to maximise shadow and tactical mitigation. If you weren't going to take much damage, you'd trait for more dps/healing/health.

There was basically a massive meta-game involved in LOTRO with regards to perfecting your character for given circumstances. Some people chose raw health. Others chose mitigation. Others trusted their healers and chose extra damage. That entire meta-game is missing from SW:TOR.

I honestly think TOR should scrap it's current pve endgame design choices and copy LOTRO's. To elaborate, I'll list exactly what i think they should do:

 

1) Move from Vertical Gear Progression to Horizontal Gear Progression

 

Vertical Gear Progression (tiered) is old fashioned and should become obsolete. In the modern day of MMO's, developers should have realised that tiered gear sucks. It segregates the community, it makes lower tier content obsolete too quickly. It removes choice.

 

Horizontal gear progression is much better. Basically, all endgame gear would have roughly equivalent stats. The actual sets from raids are differentiated by set bonuses, stat distribution and cosmetic appearance. By having unique (and good) set bonuses on all sets, it encourages you to complete all raids. Being able to mix and match gear and set bonuses is much more interesting than what we have now.

 

There obviously needs to be minor vertical progression, but this is simple: leveling gear -> pre-raid gear -> raid gear. Thats it. Make it easy to get the pre-raid gear too.

 

2) Random Drops

 

Add random drops to all bosses. These could be pieces of armour, weapons, implants etc. Whatever. Make them rare, make them good, make them different to set gear. Random drops are both an incentive and a reward for repeating content. Adding earpiece/implant random drops to all flashpoints would instantly make people grind them and make them feel happy when they win!

 

3) Consistent Difficulty Settings

 

Combined with horizontal gear progression, you need to make difficulty settings consistant. Here is my opinion on the matter:

 

a) Story Mode = Equivalent to current EV SM. Easy, beatable by 90% of the population, requires *some* co-ordination but can just be brute-forced if needed. Loot should be pre-raid gear with low probability drop rate on random stuff.

 

b) Hard Mode = Drops raid level loot. Should be equivalent to KP Hardmode now. Only drops one piece per kill with medium probability of random loot drop.

 

c) Nightmare Mode (Challenge Mode) = Difficulty should be similar to EC HM but be more challenge / mechanics based. Check out LOTRO's Tier 2 Challenges. These were things like "Complete Wound Wing in 7 Minutes" or "Kill Boss whilst always taking his avoidable damage". Its basically the same content, same difficulty, but with added challenge to prove you are uber. Loot should be double drop + 100% chance of random loot drop.

 

4) Add More Stats

 

Ok, so this one is just my personal preference but my god, TOR combat is ridiculously simple! Its like the game was designed for 8 year olds who can't read. As a DPS class, the only thing I ever have to worry about is gearing for maximum DPS. As a tank class, all I have to worry about is gearing for mitigation. Its just too simpe.

 

In my opinion, you need to add a system to modify stats, i.e. LOTRO's trait system.

 

In LOTRO, you could switch your traits around (deeds, virtues, class and legendary) to dramatically alter your character. Class deeds are the equivalent of our talent trees here. The other 3 types of traits are unique. Essentially, they are alternative ways to change your characters stats.

 

Now, where this comes in useful is building your character for certain raids. For example, when you went to the raid Ost Dunhoth to do the Shadow wing, you knew you would be taking a LOT of shadow damage, which in turn is tactical. So, before doing the shadow wing, you would switch your traits around in order to maximise shadow and tactical mitigation. If you weren't going to take much damage, you'd trait for more dps/healing/health.

 

There was basically a massive meta-game involved in LOTRO with regards to perfecting your character for given circumstances. Some people chose raw health. Others chose mitigation. Others trusted their healers and chose extra damage. That entire meta-game is missing from SW:TOR.

(I'll try to keep this brief because I have never actually played LOTRO so I don't want to make a bunch of baseless claims about it that I don't know, pls call me out if I do end up doing that in some way)

First things first, Uh... why not just play LOTRO? A lot of those features don't appease me in any way so I would much prefer this game to not go in that direction (thus why I play this game).

1. Vertical tier progression has it's perks being that people can run what ever they want. I would much rather enjoy a journey where I must first travel through one zone to move onto the next. It's a preference of play style so to call one out dated over the other is rather insulting.

2. Agree, random drops can create a sense of hope and distaste that can bring emotion to the looting process. But I do recognize some people hate the concept of random in general and can see why it was not implemented.

3. Associates with point 1. If things never got harder then what as already out then the game beings to become stale.

4. As much as I love building adjustable sets to increase my effectiveness on killing specific bosses, I've always viewed resistance based gear as lame. It can be implemented in a way where it makes sense but often times, it feels to much of a grind with no real benefit. The idea of obtaining loot that can not be used immediately until similar loot is obtained as a whole is just frustrating to say the least.

Generally the stats are the way they are for the sole purpose of creating a strong balance between success and failure for the boss encounters. The closer the balance is, the more effective the boss fights can be tuned to require raw skill as the means to down the boss.

Ok, I have no idea what all the abbreviations stand for. I am not new to online multiplayer games but yes this is my first mmo. I can't seem to find anywhere that explains the terminology that everyone is using. I find it hard to post sometimes because I feel retarded. -lol-

EV -> Eternity Vault

KP -> Karragas Palace These four are operations (TFB not used much,

EC -> Explosive conflict. yet to be released yet)

TFB -> Terror from beyond

SM -> Story Mode

HM -> Hard Mode These three are the dificulties of said operations, Nightmare

NiM -> Nightmare Mode only available in EV and KP

TFE -> The false emperor (Shared)

BT -> Black Talon (Imperial)

D7 -> Directive 7 (Shared) The only flashpoints i see abreviated

BP -> Boarding party (Imperial)

MP -> Maelstrom Prison (Republic)