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Following the server mergers, can we please now have objective-based ranked?


SlightlySychotic

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I've long been a proponent of this. In the past it's seemed to have a lot of support and there's never really been much of an argument against it outside of some fairly weak excuses. One of the better excuses, however, was that the player base on individual servers wasn't large enough to support it. Over the past year, I haven't really been able to disagree with this point. However, now that the servers have been merged I feel that this point no longer bears merit and it's time to revisit the subject.

 

Put simply, I feel like ranked arenas have been nothing short of a failure. The only metrics by which they could be said to have succeeded are metrics that the old 8v8 system was never afforded: primarily, a solo queue. Arenas were also sold on the premise that they would be easier to balance. Four years later, it's become crystal clear that this couldn't be further from the truth: at no point have arenas ever been close to balanced and attempting to do so only creates gross imbalance elsewhere. Simply put, it's time to try something else.

 

What I propose is adding objective 8v8 war zones to the solo queue. I have, in the past, suggested adding them to the 4v4 queue as well but the general consensus is that group players don't want that. If, for reasons I am unclear, that isn't feasible then I still think it would be preferable to remove the solo arena queue and replace it with a solo objective queue.

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I've long been a proponent of this. In the past it's seemed to have a lot of support and there's never really been much of an argument against it outside of some fairly weak excuses. One of the better excuses, however, was that the player base on individual servers wasn't large enough to support it. Over the past year, I haven't really been able to disagree with this point. However, now that the servers have been merged I feel that this point no longer bears merit and it's time to revisit the subject.

 

Put simply, I feel like ranked arenas have been nothing short of a failure. The only metrics by which they could be said to have succeeded are metrics that the old 8v8 system was never afforded: primarily, a solo queue. Arenas were also sold on the premise that they would be easier to balance. Four years later, it's become crystal clear that this couldn't be further from the truth: at no point have arenas ever been close to balanced and attempting to do so only creates gross imbalance elsewhere. Simply put, it's time to try something else.

 

What I propose is adding objective 8v8 war zones to the solo queue. I have, in the past, suggested adding them to the 4v4 queue as well but the general consensus is that group players don't want that. If, for reasons I am unclear, that isn't feasible then I still think it would be preferable to remove the solo arena queue and replace it with a solo objective queue.

 

I am the biggest fan of 8vs8 ranked, I've even opened threads about why adding 8vs8 ranked would be better, BUT.. if you actually sit down and think it over, you will realize that it is a bad idea.

 

Reasons ?

 

1. PVP-ers hate objectives, they want killing and ganking

 

2. The population is still low for it

 

3. The engine is not good, it wouldn't handle it very well

 

4. Imagine what would happen if 2 teams que, match starts and the other side becomes the obvious loser ? Do you think anyone would stay in that match ? People rage quit( in regs) in seconds after other team gained an advantage. How much worse would it be in ranked 8vs8 ?

 

5. How would you rate players ? Based on what ? You couldn't rate them based on win/loss because 8vs8 is a more complex game mode.

 

It wouldn't work.. :(

Edited by DavidAtkinson
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I am the biggest fan of 8vs8 ranked, I've even opened threads about why adding 8vs8 ranked would be better, BUT.. if you actually sit down and think it over, you will realize that it is a bad idea.

 

Reasons ?

 

1. PVP-ers hate objectives, they want killing and ganking

 

2. The population is still low for it

 

3. The engine is not good, it wouldn't handle it very well

 

4. Imagine what would happen if 2 teams que, match starts and the other side becomes the obvious loser ? Do you think anyone would stay in that match ? People rage quit( in regs) in seconds after other team gained an advantage. How much worse would it be in ranked 8vs8 ?

 

5. How would you rate players ? Based on what ? You couldn't rate them based on win/loss because 8vs8 is a more complex game mode.

 

It wouldn't work.. :(

 

Actually it did work.

 

1. Most good Pvpers play objectives over anything else, not sure where you get they don't play objectives.

 

2. Population is no lower than on Jung Ma before 2.4 when we used to have an active 8v8 ranked scene. You might actually get people back who'd rather do objective style ranked again.

 

3. You already run 8v8 warzones, it's no different than that, engine won't suddenly perform worse because you are keeping track of ELO.

 

4. Yes they would stay in that match because losing has less ELO loss than leaving. What usually happens is the top teams are left without matches as no one wants to queue with them in the queue, and once they log everyone starts queuing. Sort of like what happens now with team 4v4s.

 

5. Same way you rate players now since SWTOR doesn't have 1v1s. There's no difference in rating system between 4v4 and 8v8.

 

Of course the whole reason why they won't do it, and why they removed ranked 8v8 in the first place is because most people would rather play ranked 8v8 than arenas. If they left 8v8s in, ranked arenas probably would have been a total flop out of the gate and after spending all that money and time developing it, they needed it to succeed to justify it.

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Objective ranked died for a good reason. It wouldn't work in the current state of the game where the engine can barely keep up as it is. There is also a other huge factors that would make it cancer: health pools huge, dcds are insane and everyone has a leaps/teleports. The game is extremely different from 1.0 and 2.0. It won't work, that ship has sailed, time to move on.

 

If anything you guys should be calling for matchmaking. That could actually be a possibility and have large impacts in the quality of the game.

Edited by kissingaiur
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Why on earth wouldn't the engine be able to handle it? It would be absolutely no different from the current 8v8 unranked as far as taxing the engine. Ranked 8v8 absolutely could work again, the meta would be different from how it was back in the day but that wouldn't somehow make it unplayable.

 

Ranked 8v8 was some of the most fun I've ever had in the game but I'm not sure having both 8v8 ranked and 4v4 ranked would work that well. Solo queues for ranked 8v8 would be interesting but also I could see them being really frustrating. Having a team you knew and being able to communicate on the fly was pretty important.

 

I suppose if nothing else it'd get us actual matchmaking and better rewards for doing 8v8 so I'd probably still enjoy it. I do think it's a bit of a shame 4v4 became ranked instead of 8v8 even though I know why they had to do it. 8v8 was so much more exciting and you could actually fit some non-FOTM classes on your team and still do well.

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I've long been a proponent of this. In the past it's seemed to have a lot of support and there's never really been much of an argument against it outside of some fairly weak excuses. One of the better excuses, however, was that the player base on individual servers wasn't large enough to support it. Over the past year, I haven't really been able to disagree with this point. However, now that the servers have been merged I feel that this point no longer bears merit and it's time to revisit the subject.

 

Put simply, I feel like ranked arenas have been nothing short of a failure. The only metrics by which they could be said to have succeeded are metrics that the old 8v8 system was never afforded: primarily, a solo queue. Arenas were also sold on the premise that they would be easier to balance. Four years later, it's become crystal clear that this couldn't be further from the truth: at no point have arenas ever been close to balanced and attempting to do so only creates gross imbalance elsewhere. Simply put, it's time to try something else.

 

What I propose is adding objective 8v8 war zones to the solo queue. I have, in the past, suggested adding them to the 4v4 queue as well but the general consensus is that group players don't want that. If, for reasons I am unclear, that isn't feasible then I still think it would be preferable to remove the solo arena queue and replace it with a solo objective queue.

 

We have regs for obejctives and ranked for KILLING. End of discussion. What you propose is make everything objective-based but in this case where people will zerg and kill? Esp considering that Open world pvp is dead in this game lol. Besides, swtor's engine is a joke, i always see people Dsync in huttball games while playing operstives/sins with using rolls/speed/close-up[ abilities at the same time. It's far beyond fair,and will cause much flaming if it was ranked

 

1/10 for stupid suggestion.

 

HOWEVER, what i think is that solo ranked needs real changes. Healers are not queueing it so most of the fights are dps vs dps or dps vs tanks which makes some specs like arsenal merc, conc oper, engi sniper much more viable for ranked than other classes which are depending on healers pretty much. They need to do something with it since domination of 2-3 specs is unaccaptable.

Edited by omaan
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Objective ranked died for a good reason. It wouldn't work in the current state of the game where the engine can barely keep up as it is. There is also a other huge factors that would make it cancer: health pools huge, dcds are insane and everyone has a leaps/teleports. The game is extremely different from 1.0 and 2.0. It won't work, that ship has sailed, time to move on.

 

If anything you guys should be calling for matchmaking. That could actually be a possibility and have large impacts in the quality of the game.

 

100% this

Before ANY other PvP changes they need to fix matchmaking in ranked and even in regs. So many issues with this i scarcely even know where to begin, but fair and balanced sad much as possible matches should be the #1 goal. Of course a few select class balance tweaks would also be very nice on obvious cases for both nerf and buff but that would be #2.

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the day pressing "Queue Solo Ranked" means I have to potentially backpack not just up to three but up to seven other players through quesh huttball or odp is the day I never press the button again

 

part of me would enjoy seeing this be implemented so you could see all the same people on this board make all the same complaints about the new solo ranked that they made about the previous iteration plus some new ones after it begins to dawn on them that the trickle of DCD/mobility buffs over the years has fundamentally broken many aspects of objective pvp

 

would that really be worth the satisfaction of feeling like you're helping because you're repeatedly dying on top of a node instead of unceremoniously lying dead on the floor in arenas where the consequences of being outplayed are so much more glaring?

Edited by yellow_
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would that really be worth the satisfaction of feeling like you're helping because you're repeatedly dying on top of a node instead of unceremoniously lying dead on the floor in arenas where the consequences of being outplayed are so much more glaring?

 

Yes. That’s exactly it. Not even being sarcastic.

 

Have you never been in a match where you were outkilled but managed to hold a node or got a clutch score and won?

Edited by ace_boogie
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Yes. That’s exactly it. Not even being sarcastic.

 

Have you never been in a match where you were outkilled but managed to hold a node or got a clutch score and won?

Of course. And, generally speaking, I don't feel like I outplayed anyone or won legitimately. I feel like I cheesed my way to a win in a poorly designed game mode (literally none of the warzones are well matched with the current time-to-kill).

 

To me this just sounds like a thinly-veiled confession about wanting to be able to cheese your way to a win over better players. Props for being honest though.

 

Games where one team dies 10+ times the amount of the other and manage to die tactically enough and win because they've got the right combination of tank/heal spam and stealther stalls when the other is honestly trying to win are an insult to the concept of PVP.

Edited by yellow_
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Of course. And, generally speaking, I don't feel like I outplayed anyone or won legitimately. I feel like I cheesed my way to a win in a poorly designed game mode (literally none of the warzones are well matched with the current time-to-kill).

 

To me this just sounds like a thinly-veiled confession about wanting to be able to cheese your way to a win over better players. Props for being honest though.

 

Games where one team dies 10+ times the amount of the other and manage to die tactically enough and win because they've got the right combination of tank/heal spam and stealther stalls when the other is honestly trying to win are an insult to the concept of PVP.

 

Sounds like that to you because you’re projecting. It has nothing to do with “cheese”. Maybe that’s how you play.

 

Sometimes the other team just has more/better healing than you do. Or maybe a tank with a clue. Or maybe it’s a circumstance of fortunate respawns or just flat out playing huttball correctly while the other team deathmatches that helps you win in objective pvp whilst being outkilled. There are a number of factors that go into being outkilled in a win.

 

The real insult to pvp is you dorks who think you are pvp gods when you win and some nefarious ******** happened when you lose.

Edited by ace_boogie
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Dcds are too strong you can already feel it in 4v4, 8v8 would be a **** show with the expection of huttball perhaps

 

This ^

 

I would take the word of people who thoroughly enjoyed and competed at the top level when 8s were around- it worked wonderfully when level cap was 50, but even at level cap of 55 there started to be serious issues as TTK got too long and classes became more mobile.

 

In games with even teams, civil wars were about whose combat sentinel popped transcendence fastest to cap the offnode in a 30 minute slugfest at mid. Voidstar became one of the first arenas essentially, the first door was never capped and it was about who had more kills. AH often ended because a hidden time limit was reached.

 

Novare partially worked because at the time, you could use seismic grenade mez rotations to cap the node. With the bastion debuff, that is no longer possible.

 

Vanilla huttball would still be fun, but unless it was a huttball-only queue, 8s would not be fun.

 

The tl:dr is the proliferation of defensive and mobility cooldowns outgrew the vanilla maps starting at level 55, and now at 70, 8s are not a viable form of competitive pvp. Arenas are what we have, and at this point, what I prefer.

Edited by EnzoForMe
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Sometimes the other team just has more/better healing than you do. Or maybe a tank with a clue.
oh no the other team has better players and it's causing them to win! better throw a poorly balanced objective into the mix to make sure the worse players still have a shot!
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unceremoniously lying dead on the floor in arenas where the consequences of being outplayed are so much more glaring?

 

Half the time you're not even being outplayed. Its just a glaring balance issue of one class dominating the other in a setup that is predominately 4dps vs 4dps 98% of the time. 8v8 aint perfect, but classes can actually function a heck of alot better in 8v8 than in the joke called 4v4.

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This ^

 

I would take the word of people who thoroughly enjoyed and competed at the top level when 8s were around- it worked wonderfully when level cap was 50, but even at level cap of 55 there started to be serious issues as TTK got too long and classes became more mobile.

 

In games with even teams, civil wars were about whose combat sentinel popped transcendence fastest to cap the offnode in a 30 minute slugfest at mid. Voidstar became one of the first arenas essentially, the first door was never capped and it was about who had more kills. AH often ended because a hidden time limit was reached.

 

Novare partially worked because at the time, you could use seismic grenade mez rotations to cap the node. With the bastion debuff, that is no longer possible.

 

Vanilla huttball would still be fun, but unless it was a huttball-only queue, 8s would not be fun.

 

The tl:dr is the proliferation of defensive and mobility cooldowns outgrew the vanilla maps starting at level 55, and now at 70, 8s are not a viable form of competitive pvp. Arenas are what we have, and at this point, what I prefer.

 

Balance changes will need to be made, there's no denying that. However, it's important to remember that this . . . I'm going to call it a "tanky meta" . . . only came about to facilitate arenas so that squishier "glass cannon" classes could be viable. Moving on to a game mode where dying isn't the end of the world, you can afford to increase damage values and pare down some of those invincibility buttons. It won't happen over night but . . . well, let me put it this way: do you think arenas are a patch or two away from being balanced? How about two or three? Six or seven? And, if you said "Yes" to any of these, would you have said the same about a year ago? Or two years?

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We tried 8v8 again on Jarkai Sword (Server was dead)

We queued with 2 Rep premades and 2 Imp Premades.

It worked but there are issues of course:

 

- 2 good healers and a tank = too strong in combination even for 4-5 good dps.

 

Solution 1: matchmaking

We have so many DCDS nowadays.

So limit the queue for just 1 tank and 1 heal for each Team --> People will die again.

Solution 2: reduce healing in general or take away DCDS (which affects PVE)

 

I think 8vs8 would be possible with proper matchmaking.

I would celebrate so hard if they would bring it back because it was the Best time in SW:Tor even with a high TTK and too many DCDs it is still better than Arena.

Arena is fun for several matches but a wohle evening every day for weeks - this is literally no fun at all.

You guys say pvp is about killing - You are correct but Arena is more about mezzes / ccs, guard switch and to use defs wisely...

Some classes have more usefull ccs and utilities than other classes BW said they want to Balance Arena. Well look at the balance.... game was better balanced in 2.x.

 

An other reason: if you play an arena (Solo) and there is a Player in your team who has no Clue about his Defs and his class (we all know that Situation :rolleyes:) --> getting globaled. It is very Frustrating. Because you can do nothing about it.

Im 8vs8 you can compensate for such a player in a better way. The Player himself is able to do more, too.

In arena = stunlock --> globaled --> useless

In 8v8 = stunlock --> globaled --> respawn --> runs to a node and maybe prevent from tap 1 time before He dies again.

 

And at last:

Why i should play streetball (arena) on one basket when iam able to play NBA style Basketball (obj based pvp)?

Edited by Tharianus
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An other reason: if you play an arena (Solo) and there is a Player in your team who has no Clue about his Defs and his class (we all know that Situation :rolleyes:) --> getting globaled. It is very Frustrating. Because you can do nothing about it.

Im 8vs8 you can compensate for such a player in a better way. The Player himself is able to do more, too.

In arena = stunlock --> globaled --> useless

In 8v8 = stunlock --> globaled --> respawn --> runs to a node and maybe prevent from tap 1 time before He dies again.

The possibility that awful players might be slightly less useless in objective pvp does not make the game anymore carryable for the best players because said useless players are spread around randomly. How carryable each game is is about the format.

 

The ability for strong players to carry games and climb rating would be decidedly less in a solo 8v8 queue for two reasons. First and foremost, deathmatch and playing as close to optimally as possible in it is vastly more difficult and complicated than it is for objectives. The gap between the best, the really good, and the just pretty good is actually quite distinct in arenas but would be noticeably blurrier in objectives. I think this is what people mean when they talk about a game's skill cap. Arenas have a much higher skill cap than warzones do, full stop. The second reason is really simple. Instead of making up a fourth of a 4 man team you make up an eighth of an 8 man team. That change alone cuts your impact in half relative to arenas before any other variables have a chance.

Edited by yellow_
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You're not supposed to carry. Its a team game. The concept of carry is a flaw in the fact that people want to solo queue and want their ratings to reflect their own performance. This same crap happens in overwatch competitive. No one wants to form teams, so you have the masses solo queuing then crying that they have to carry. Well stop soloing.
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