So here is my story my main is a marauder max out pvp and rank 90 and Pve

now i waned a alt for fun and the 3 days of exp so i rolled a operative . and it was fun in the beginning

my gear is max out at my level and that is 48 and i have points so i can the full skill tree,

my spec is LETH and i do a lot of damage and are in top . i even hit 1mil damage ,

but i waned to try out Coneca spec.. is this a joke ... i am so easy of a target .... before i had respect for operative in pvp as marauder i was like f00k a operative are on me. i am ok i am going back to LETH spec.. and healer is not for me.

so i really thinking about leveling to 55 i know i am 48 hard part is over. but... how is it at level 55 pvp ?

i took the nerf as chance to try lethality..also that is fun and completely viable for me..obviously it's not the same role you come in pvp with..at 55 is enjoyable too, i didn't thought the first days of 2.7 i'd ever dps'd again on that class but i'm happy with lethality now..btw, taking away the KD destroyed completely concealment for me

What nerf? I don't remember any nerf

What nerf? I don't remember any nerf

call a doctor, this must a be a ptsd case

call a doctor, this must a be a ptsd case

You worded your post poorly and presumably cs thinks you're talking about a nerf to lethality

EDIT: Also that's not what ptsd is.

What nerf? I don't remember any nerf

Think they meant the concealment nerf cs =P

The knockdown nerf.

Oh that was a nerf? Didn't notice.

Let's see, over 2 game update concealment got:

-10% sustained damage increase

-better burst

-better energy management

-better gapcloser

-80% defense/50% resist chance with possible 30% uptime

-better shield probe with less than half cooldown

they lost:

-1.5sec stun

Don't be so obtuse, you know exactly why every single conc op and scrapper scoundrel is ticked right now.

Yes, because they are impossible to please, they want damage, survivability, stealth, stunlock. The only thing they don't want is a fair fight.

2.7 change from a stun to a root is actually a buff since most people panic when they hear an operative behind em and only VERY good players, can maintain the control to properly deal with it.

Also, the removal of a stun no longer fills the resolve bar to full so if need be, you can fb/run (if cloak on cd)

Oh that was a nerf? Didn't notice.

Let's see, over 2 game update concealment got:

-10% sustained damage increase

-better burst

-better energy management

-better gapcloser

-80% defense/50% resist chance with possible 30% uptime

-better shield probe with less than half cooldown

they lost:

-1.5sec stun

 

Yes, because they are impossible to please, they want damage, survivability, stealth, stunlock. The only thing they don't want is a fair fight.

Scoundrel is boring. Dont know what to tell you. Its just boring without the knockdown. . Was K.O.(the knockdown) all that great...no, it wasnt getting me a place on ranked teams. Did it bring joy when I used it....hells yeah it did. It was a cheap stun/interupt, and probably caused more rage and panic than any other ability in the game. Without it....the class is boring.

I could argue how much utility it served, but im sure our opinions will differ, and I cant really muster the will to argue anymore.

If I could summarize my opinion of the class in terms of patches. In 2.5 scoundrels/Opertives got there burst back, in 2.7 they lost there soul. Scrapper/Concealment is just not itself without the knockdown. I and im sure many other scrappers/Concealment pvpers feel the same way.

Oh that was a nerf? Didn't notice.

Let's see, over 2 game update concealment got:

-10% sustained damage increase

-better burst

-better energy management

-better gapcloser

-80% defense/50% resist chance with possible 30% uptime

-better shield probe with less than half cooldown

they lost:

-1.5sec stun

 

Yes, because they are impossible to please, they want damage, survivability, stealth, stunlock. The only thing they don't want is a fair fight.

Considering Shadows have damage, survivability, stealth, and stunlock (in PVP), maybe they have a point. And all of those changes were excellent.....for PVE. For PVP they did nothing to address the problems with the class which WERE survivability. I remember when the damage buffs came through and the general attitude was "uh...thanks for the damage boost, but what we really wanted was survivability".

Like I said, stop being obtuse. If I recall right aren't you still trying to get ammo management for Commando Healers fixed, even though Trauma Probe got such a huge massive boost. Oh that wasn't the change that you thought was needed at all and just served to obscure the real issue? That's kind of what the operatives are saying.

Considering Shadows have damage, survivability, stealth, and stunlock (in PVP), maybe they have a point. And all of those changes were excellent.....for PVE. For PVP they did nothing to address the problems with the class which WERE survivability. I remember when the damage buffs came through and the general attitude was "uh...thanks for the damage boost, but what we really wanted was survivability".

Shadows are kinda OP in regs, that doesn't mean operatives have to be too.

Also you just got survivability in 2.7

Like I said, stop being obtuse. If I recall right aren't you still trying to get ammo management for Commando Healers fixed, even though Trauma Probe got such a huge massive boost. Oh that wasn't the change that you thought was needed at all and just served to obscure the real issue? That's kind of what the operatives are saying.

I never asked for the TP/KS buff, in fact i was opposing it as much as I could. And yes I wouldn't say no to ammo buff for Mando healers, but I'm not crying all around the forums about it, actually I even said that it's not that important as dps issues in the Top3 questions thread.

You guys loved the KD? fine, but it was a huge pain in the *** for every other class (as far as i gathered from the forum, i don't really mind)

 

You guys loved the KD? fine, but it was a huge pain in the *** for every other class (as far as i gathered from the forum, i don't really mind)

i dont know of any stun i like getting hit with in this game.

Shadows are kinda OP in regs, that doesn't mean operatives have to be too.

Also you just got survivability in 2.7

Pretty much any stealth gank class will be considered OP in PVP no matter what you do. Doesn't really make it true.

I never asked for the TP/KS buff, in fact i was opposing it as much as I could. And yes I wouldn't say no to ammo buff for Mando healers, but I'm not crying all around the forums about it, actually I even said that it's not that important as dps issues in the Top3 questions thread.

 

You guys loved the KD? fine, but it was a huge pain in the *** for every other class (as far as i gathered from the forum, i don't really mind)

I brought up the TP/KS buff specifically because I know how you felt about it then. Back when the 2.6 buffs to concealment came in, they were basically saying the same thing you were. "These aren't the buffs we need".

As for other classes not liking it, well as said no one likes getting stunned, and no one likes stealth gank classes unless they're playing them. But the stun was pretty weak as stuns go, and it was always way more fun than it was useful. As a practical ability, in PVP against competent opponents, losing it really has surrendered the initiative on a class that depended on that initiative to be successful and do its job because, again, they really don't have the survivability to last in a stand up fight. The fact that the Shadow knockdown got turned into a stun, and that they already have a spammable melee range root in the tree just adds insult to injury really.

Aesthetically operatives were always going to hate the knockdown nerf, but I still would have said it was a good thing if it had come with the survivability boost the class needed (no Defense Screen/Shield Probe isn't enough of a boost). As it didn't they kinda got the worst of both worlds at the end of the day and that sucks out loud.

2.7 change from a stun to a root is actually a buff since most people panic when they hear an operative behind em and only VERY good players, can maintain the control to properly deal with it.

 

Also, the removal of a stun no longer fills the resolve bar to full so if need be, you can fb/run (if cloak on cd)

i assume either you do not PvP much, or PvP has degraded on your server so badly that people do not know how to counter anything anymore.

Any decent PvPer will not 'run away' when jumped by an OP. The only panic move i've seen is when people blow their anti-cc on the old knock down. I'd estimate that 99.999% of everyone i fought's first thought is to cc, not run away from an OP. Now with this root, everyone with thumbs just stuns the op immediately when they open, and pounds them into the dirt. Yes, its a dangerous class if you hide in a corner and pick off near-death folks running away or jump someone fighting someone else. But it completely lost its identity in design.

Anyone who says these changes are for the better either doesnt play an OP and didnt like to be knocked down and is glad its gone, or they want an easy kill. Most of the veteran players could care less about the knockdown. Its the lost of the hard stun thats the killer

Oh that was a nerf? Didn't notice.

Let's see, over 2 game update concealment got:

-10% sustained damage increase (needed; a glass cannon needs damage, no survivability; call me a purist... )

-better burst

-better energy management (needed)

-better in-combat gapcloser (look down)

-80% defense/50% resist chance with possible 30% uptime (now comparable to the slinger roll. parsecs away from being OP)

-better shield probe with less than half cooldown (don't make a fuzz about something affecting both ACs)

they lost:

-1.5sec stun (it was a knockdown)

-rolling purge (in fact a double nerf, because they introduced uncleansable dots

-out of combat mobility

 

Yes, because they are impossible to please, they want damage, survivability, stealth, stunlock. The only thing they don't want is a fair fight.

You got raped by ops/scoundrels. So you decided to be an a**hole and justify class-breaking nerfs, that's OK. But get your "facts" right, before you start posting.

A removal of a hardstun is just offensive towards a stealth-based class. Rogues with less hard stuns than Powertechs, Tank-Juggs and Sins? Come on...

If they would have nerfed our knockdown to a 1.5 sec stun like they did it with the sins; if they nerfed our flash bang like they did it with snipingers; and if they brought in the other 2.7 changes, too, I would have said "good work, class is perfectly fine".

But 2.7 was so heavy handed, it is not even funny any more.

EDIT: Just found out, cs_zoltan is playing shadow. Lost faith in humanity, stupidity and ignorance of people like him is just too much...

Scoundrel is boring. Dont know what to tell you. Its just boring without the knockdown. . Was K.O.(the knockdown) all that great...no, it wasnt getting me a place on ranked teams. Did it bring joy when I used it....hells yeah it did. It was a cheap stun/interupt, and probably caused more rage and panic than any other ability in the game. Without it....the class is boring.

 

I could argue how much utility it served, but im sure our opinions will differ, and I cant really muster the will to argue anymore.

 

If I could summarize my opinion of the class in terms of patches. In 2.5 scoundrels/Opertives got there burst back, in 2.7 they lost there soul. Scrapper/Concealment is just not itself without the knockdown. I and im sure many other scrappers/Concealment pvpers feel the same way.

Let me correct you. "Without the K.O knockdown, the class became USELESS." I cannot for the life of me, play my operative in PvP without this crucial ability. Hell, i refuse to even log into my operative unless it's crafting related until Bio******* fixes the K.O. Talent to be either a Stun (like Spike is!) or back to a Knockdown. Until then, say hello to my PT Tank Geld'in PvP'ers of The Harbinger, and get ready to be burnt to a crisp.

I have played my operative in pvp almost every day since early release.

Maybe I'm not as good as some of you, but the knockdown thing has not set me back and with all the changes I feel more effective than ever overall. I don't like that it is gone, but how much did anyone RELY on that one thing to win??

I have played my operative in pvp almost every day since early release.

 

Maybe I'm not as good as some of you, but the knockdown thing has not set me back and with all the changes I feel more effective than ever overall. I don't like that it is gone, but how much did anyone RELY on that one thing to win??

I haven't noticed that severe a change from the removal of the knockdown, the main thing I miss is the interrupt from it but that could be easily reintroduced without to much QQ from the unwashed masses.

The main reason people are upset by it is that it's the removal of a class defining animation and it is yet another nerf to go along with our long history or unnecessary nerfs. We still aren't viable in ranked or solo ranked, we're still an easy kill versus a competent player and assassins still do everything we do but better. It's more the thought behind the removal that upset people rather than the practical side.

Now we need to be prepared to be pushed back / stunned as soon as we open. If we're knocked back then a roll should get us back in to melee range and if we're stunned then we need to work out whether than stun is worth breaking / break it and then stun them ourselves. All of this requires far more game awareness than simply "opening up" and will decrease performance in almost all cases because even if you read it right and react correctly you're forced in to using cooldowns you could have saved for a better opportunity.

One thing that's rife in this game is people just looking at the singular change without working out how it influences other areas of the class / game. Actually if you look at all the issues with hybrid builds and FOTM it's pretty clear this issue is prevalent amongst the devs too.