Its canon , I thought you were the great Canon keeper ?

Sidious made all the plans , made sure all the attacks by Grievous were not complete waste of time .

Grievous was the Face of the Battles , but he was just a commander doing what he was told PERIOD .

 

Before he was a Cyborg he was doing what he did in the movies , make attacks and run when they were losing . He almost died from it or did you forget that ?

 

He was not some Great General and when he was not needed no longer Anakin would have killed him like the rest !

Sidious did not run the day-to-day affairs of the war. I have no idea where you got that from. Sidious twisted certain events for his purpose (because the Clone Wars was his war), but he didn't tell Grievous what planet to attack unless it was absolutely vital to the Plan.

And Grievous was a great general. He may have been a tool, but a useful one. Sidious had faith in Grievous' abilities, that's kinda the reason Sidious had Dooku orchestrate Grievous' 'accident.'

That is a good point, as long as Grievous is churning out battle droids their going to keep supporting him because for them war = money. However I think my argument still stands in that other sepratists supporters e.g former senators will want nothing to do with a war against Mandalorians unless they profit from it, and not all of them do. Nor will many of them want to be led by a cyborg general. However I agree with you that the important part of the Sepratist forces still stands, the droids armies and navies. I was just pointing out that the Sepratists won't have such a great infrastructure. Still more than MtU though.

 

And a very good point about morale, can't see any counter arguments for that.

 

Speaking of counter arguments no one has yet refuted my point about Grievous invading Dxun, curious.

 

P.S. is it just me or do you always side with the droids?

 

By that logic, we can say some Mandalorian clans will not participate in the war against droids because there is no glory in it, seeing as glory is their "profit". We have seen Mandalorian clans defy Mandalore before, and they could very well in this Kaggath. Basically what I'm getting at is that saying allies would suddenly not participate in the war because of who they are fighting doesn't make much sense. Allies will probably remain allies unless converted to the enemy side. Or else we get into this kind of argument, where we guess at who might defect. Reguardless of what I just said, if the CIS loses supporters based on fighting Mandos, the Mandalorians will lose support based on fighting droids.

Why would people not want to follow a cyborg?

The Dxun thing hasn't been refuted because its true. Grievous can invade whatever he wants and win. The Mandos will have to do hit-and-runs. But when Grievous lands his forces somewhere, it's all over.

P.S. Have you seen my signature? Droids are very underestimated in Star Wars, but I feel they're one of the most important and interesting aspects of the Star Wars universe. Just ask R2-D2, he was the real hero of the movies!

You have a point Warren_ Stride, however I do think its an important factor to consider, defections etc have been accepted arguments before so I'm not about to change that. But yes it definitely is a factor affecting both sides, more so the Mandalorians but I suspect both sides will be able to keep their underlings in check.

As for Grievous, the fact is the galaxy is pretty anti-droid like the Empire are to aliens. I don't see many people finding a ruthless, menacing looking cyborg (many would probably mistake him for a droid) hell bent on the singular purpose of ridding the galaxy of Jedi and appealing leader. Especially for peace time.

And Aurbere the way I see it is that while Grievous is a brilliant tactician he is not a charismatic leader like Dooku and does not have Sidious pulling the strings to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic (which he did to prolong the Clone Wars) Now Sidious was by no means commanding the Sepratist war effort, that's all down to Grievous. But he was making moves to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic, which was a significant factor in CIS success during the Clone Wars. This time Grievous doesn't have that advantage, but does he need it?

And Aurbere the way I see it is that while Grievous is a brilliant tactician he is not a charismatic leader like Dooku and does not have Sidious pulling the strings to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic (which he did to prolong the Clone Wars) Now Sidious was by no means commanding the Sepratist war effort, that's all down to Grievous. But he was making moves to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic, which was a significant factor in CIS success during the Clone Wars. This time Grievous doesn't have that advantage, but does he need it?

Didn't I say that? Eh, no problem.

Grievous isn't lacking in the tactics department, but he is lacking the schemes of Sidious and the charisma of Count Dooku. Does he need them? Against the Republic, yes. Against Mandalore, no. If Grievous wants to keep the Seperatist Council in line, he can just employ the Tarkin Doctrine. Obviously not THE Tarkin Doctrine, but something similar to it. He would be using fear to keep them in line. And for those that read Labrynth of Evil, that will work on the Nemoidians and some of the other Alliance members.

As for the schemes. I don't know. I don't see Sidious' schemes as being necessary to take down Mandalore. Grievous handled the huk just fine. I think he can handle the Mandalorians.

You have a point Warren_ Stride, however I do think its an important factor to consider, defections etc have been accepted arguments before so I'm not about to change that. But yes it definitely is a factor affecting both sides, more so the Mandalorians but I suspect both sides will be able to keep their underlings in check.

Oh no, I agree completely. Considering defections is one of my favorite parts of these debates. However, defecting refers to joining the enemy's side. Saying that some allies would just choose to be "neutral" and not participate at all seems to be bad for the debate. I don't know, it just seems like a lame argument to me. But maybe that's because I prefer to stick with "at the height of their power".

Oh no, I agree completely. Considering defections is one of my favorite parts of these debates. However, defecting refers to joining the enemy's side. Saying that some allies would just choose to be "neutral" and not participate at all seems to be bad for the debate. I don't know, it just seems like a lame argument to me. But maybe that's because I prefer to stick with "at the height of their power".

Well, I'm not gonna start changing any rules just yet. It doesn't seem to effect the battle too much - seeing as the civilian population isn't part of Grievous' war machine and anyone/anything combat related is going to stay loyal to him. However in terms of MtU many Mandalorian clans may rebel if they feel the Mandalorian call to arms is unworthy. And so would fall apart and scatter, leaving MtU and Dxun wide open...

I'm not saying to change any rules. If this argument of nuetrality is valid, which I'm not completely sure it is, it's going to harm the Mandos much more than Grievous.

Moral Argument + Glory ("profit") Argument + Nuetrality Option = Very bad for Mandalore

Here's how I see this senario playing out:

I suspect after the first few battles (even more so if the Mandalorians WIN those battles) the warriors will lose interest in fighting the droids, for sure the B1s, who they see as unworthy foes. The lack of guts and gore will lose all the glory in battle, their main motivation. They will then lose moral and fight half-heartedly. Eventually, (again even more so if Mandalore keeps winning) the Mandos will dislike the idea of wading through trillions of droids with no reward of glory or worthy opponents. They will become spiteful of the confrontations and lose interest, maybe even to the point of questioning Mandalore's leadership.

While Mandalore attempts to keep his clans in check with the Reslonare and the "You shall follow Mandalore" clause, he will probably try to maintain their bloodlust. Maybe by a Great Hunt on Dxun? (That IS how the Great Hunt originated.) Or possibly engaging in world invasions to battle real living things. The Great Hunt on Dxun will result in a full out invasion from Grievous which will end in death, probably of the planet and everything on it. The world invasions will end the same way. Mandos just can't beat Grievous on the ground.

These defeats will either result in Mandalore's death on the battlefield, or leave him without the support of much of his powerbase. Then all Grievous and the trillions of droids have to do is clean up what's left of their Mando foes.

There are a lot of Mandalorian fans out there who severely overestimate their army strength.

Mandalorians have always been strong fighters individually, but have lacked the large numbers of many armies of other galactic powers, such as the Hutt Cartel, Empire, Republic, and in this case the CIS. This can also be related to the Spartans, who the Mandalorians clearly drew some inspiration from. Despite being great fighters, numbers did eventually overwhelm them, even if it was a heavy cost for the enemy.

This moves onto my second point, the armies of the Confederation. It was stated the CIS had nearly a quadrillion battle droids (including droidekas, super battle droids, and anything else), a ginormous number. This number is higher than the armies of any Mandalore in history. The sheer number of battledroids could eventually overwhelm the Mandalorians.

If you arn't picturing the magnitude of a quadrillion battle droids, imagine this; even if the Mandalorians destroyed a billion battle droids there'd be 99 billion left. And lets say there where a billion Mandalorians, and each kills 50 battle droids, that's only half the Confederation's army. And, this is assuming that no Mandalorians die and each one gets 50 kills, so this result is still highly inaccurate.

Lastly, I've seen some people in this thread call General Grievious a bad general and that Dooku or Sidious was the real strategist. This is entirely untrue, as Grievious made his own decisions and had entire control of the Confederation's droid armies. It is stated numerous times he was a brilliant general, and that can be clearly seen if you look at the various military victories he achieved.

This is only a small point, and will probably not help at all, but Mandalore could nuke key droid manufactures. He has nuclear weaponry, and has used it before. If the plants are to much, he could simply use them on battlefields or CIS planets/meeting areas.

Yep, this is definitely a small point. But let's see where it goes...

This is only a small point, and will probably not help at all, but Mandalore could nuke key droid manufactures. He has nuclear weaponry, and has used it before. If the plants are to much, he could simply use them on battlefields or CIS planets/meeting areas.

 

Yep, this is definitely a small point. But let's see where it goes...

I'm pretty sure in one of the earlier Kaggath threads it was stated that nukes fell under the "superweapon" category.

I'm pretty sure in one of the earlier Kaggath threads it was stated that nukes fell under the "superweapon" category.

nukes are banned

Around page 7-ish of the Mandalore versus Exar Kun thread. Mandalore can still bombard the planet, but no nukes.

I'd like to make a point concerning the Clone wars:

TCW shows (in the end of season 3 I think) Anakin and Tarkin speaking about how Jedi tactics often hold them back from doing what's necessary. In this since, the CIS was fighting a Republic that was slightly restrained by the Jedi and their code. MtU will not be restrained. It's just a thought.

Anakin and Tarkin speaking about how Jedi tactics often hold them back from doing what's necessary. In this since, the CIS was fighting a Republic that was slightly restrained by the Jedi and their code. MtU will not be restrained. It's just a thought.

Also, in the Republic Commando series several characters point out that the war is only lasting so long because of the way the chancellor is forcing them to spread out their forces. Wouldn't the Republic have hammered the CIS if it wasn't for Sidious meddling? Still, for me it's a victory to Grevious.

Around page 7-ish of the Mandalore versus Exar Kun thread. Mandalore can still bombard the planet, but no nukes.

Alright then. It was a last avenue of attack idea, but whatever.

I think we've debated every angle here, so I'll declare the victor later today.

I'm betting it's Grievous. Can't wait for the next match up.

May I turn your attention to Round 2: Darth Revan vs Skere Kaan of the Kaggath Heats.

Can't say I'm surprised. Gave it my best shot but hey, it was always going to be an uphill battle. Congrats to the Grievous supporters and can't wait to see who he gets pitted against next.

Now, I have to ask- do you have an actual score for this one? I know you posted one on another thread so I was curious.

Can't say I'm surprised. Gave it my best shot but hey, it was always going to be an uphill battle. Congrats to the Grievous supporters and can't wait to see who he gets pitted against next.

 

Now, I have to ask- do you have an actual score for this one? I know you posted one on another thread so I was curious.