As I said, it goes tank > healer > dps. Always will. Why you so offended by the fact that tank decides is beyond my understanding.

 

Why? Because that purple icon next to your name isn't a pass to Free Douchebaggery, that's why.

 

Your inability to comprehend that is partly why we have this thread.

Why? Because that purple icon next to your name isn't a pass to Free Douchebaggery, that's why.

 

Your inability to comprehend that is partly why we have this thread.

 

You are free to answer my question, who should back down, tank or dps in situations like those. Oh, let me guess, you think dps should choose what to do in fp.

 

Guess what, red icon next to your name isn't a pass to Free Douchebaggery.

 

I play mmorpgs for a long time, tanks lead the way, it is always like that. As I said, if people don't like my intentions in FP (and I say them as soon as i port in - doing all that achievement requires), if majority is against that, I can leave, both side happy. Oh, let me guess, I should stay till the end because they wont get replacement for a while?

 

I will repeat since you tend to ignore questions, who should back down? If I'm tanking and want all, you are dpsing and want only end boss, while other 2 dont care, how will this end? And more important, who will other 2 guys support in the end?

Why? Because that purple icon next to your name isn't a pass to Free Douchebaggery, that's why.

 

Your inability to comprehend that is partly why we have this thread.

 

That doesn't mean tank/healer must tolerate:

- dps who thinks they are tank

- dps who breaks CC constantly

- dps who uses all time between pulls to mock tank/healer

In the end its just a matter of who backs down 1st.

 

I'm a big fan of running flashpoints with at least the achievement bosses included. I hate it from the bottom of my hart that bioware wasn't able to retroactively give us the achievements for those. I want those achievements done and it only takes a few minutes extra.

 

That having said ....... this is my opinion .... I have been in groups where we skipped the bonuses while I would like to do so because of the elements or achievements. I am going to try to persuade the group but in the end I'm not sabotaging or solo pulling stuff (Did that only once with the bonus in Kaon since we only needed 1 more clicky turret).

 

Imho is doesnt matter if you are the tank or not. Being the tank doesn't mean you are the leader. It only means you are the one initiating the combat. Nothing more, nothing less. As a tank you can influence doing achievements or bonuses by just jumping in but thats about it.

I do that quite often when tanking. When you are close to the bonus boss almost none will disagree to kill him since its such a small amount of time.

calm down TheRampage, its only a game.

 

I think the point they are trying to make is you demonstrate yourself as rude/obnoxious "if you dont like how I do it then leave" while claiming to be "nice and polite"

 

On the subject of who's right, who cares? Personally i couldnt care less if the bonus is done or not, its only a game. I have noticed though (mainly end game) people dont share that view, they all take it so seriously.

 

For example I ran korriban incursion with my sniper, at the end loot was some lovely boots that were better than what i had currently, so i pop need, 2 others pop greed, 4th says "can i need for my comp," my response "click what you want" and suddenly im flamed by the 2 others for letting the ninja looter get away with it (its nothing to do with them), in the end the other bloke gets the boots and 1 of those that clicked greed says "welcome to ignore list noob sniper" (meaning me) people really should learn that the whole point of a game is to relax.

Edited May 13, 2014 by BobFredJohn

That doesn't mean tank/healer must tolerate:

- dps who thinks they are tank

- dps who breaks CC constantly

- dps who uses all time between pulls to mock tank/healer

 

When did I say that? Pretty sure I never said that.

 

I'm responding to Rampage's assertion that, as the tank, we can all do what he wants or suck it.

 

So, yeah, that's a Tank being a jerk. What you wrote is a DPS being a jerk. What's in common: people being a jerk.

 

If a tank (or ANYONE) wants to force one or more other people to do what he wants, because he thinks having a purple icon next to his name makes him, and I quote, 'greater than the healer and greater than the DPS,' then that is being a jerk.

 

In simple words, what I am saying is: try the Golden Rule. Play nice. Don't be a jerk.

Edited May 13, 2014 by thewitchdoctor

You are free to answer my question, who should back down, tank or dps in situations like those.

 

I did answer your question. You said 'tanks are greater than healers and greater than DPS,' to insinuate that the other three can bugger off to whatever you want.

 

I don't agree.

 

You finally clarified a bit and said that if you were in the minority you'd leave.

 

So, you answered it for me. The majority should rule.

 

Now, obviously, if two are on the fence, the tank will probably get his way. And THAT was my point: that purple icon is not a free pass for you to act like a jerk and demand your way. Which is what your first posts said you felt free to do.

 

I am tank and I choose what we kill. It works like that, if you have problem with it - leave. My companion will fill roll of you without a problem, hell, they can all leave and I'll solo fp.

 

Is it fair? Probably not. How to change it? Roll tank and choose what you do and how you do it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by thewitchdoctor

when i used to pug FPs, i used also to leave groups i diverged from in opinions about bonus or not( 3v1)..and i have all roles..sometimes i que these days aswell, but it's just for guildies gearing up.. and it's not the tank to decide..it's yourself..i mean who cares about that arkanian or that achievment..i won't stay in a group that: a ) has low dps since i hate long fp fights, b) it has some tank/healer/dps jerk i'm not going to play with...and this while i stay if someone says it's a first timer and needs some advice..

Being the tank doesn't mean you are the leader.

 

Then why people require these from tank:

- better gear than what drops in FP/OP (in most cases two tiers higher)

- they must know the content so well that they could do it blindfolded, solo without companion.

 

When you are close to the bonus boss almost none will disagree to kill him since its such a small amount of time.

 

To be honest I can't remember when I was in group that agreed to kill bonus boss in BT.

Then why people require these from tank:

- better gear than what drops in FP/OP (in most cases two tiers higher)

- they must know the content so well that they could do it blindfolded, solo without companion.

 

I'm pretty sure it is General Order 1 in PUGs that "Thou Must Have Greater Gear Than What Dropeth Here.' But it is true for all roles. Tanks may get the more creative flak, but PUGs are chock-a-block full of weird expectations.

calm down TheRampage, its only a game.

 

I think the point they are trying to make is you demonstrate yourself as rude/obnoxious "if you dont like how I do it then leave" while claiming to be "nice and polite"

 

On the subject of who's right, who cares? Personally i couldnt care less if the bonus is done or not, its only a game. I have noticed though (mainly end game) people dont share that view, they all take it so seriously.

 

For example I ran korriban incursion with my sniper, at the end loot was some lovely boots that were better than what i had currently, so i pop need, 2 others pop greed, 4th says "can i need for my comp," my response "click what you want" and suddenly im flamed by the 2 others for letting the ninja looter get away with it (its nothing to do with them), in the end the other bloke gets the boots and 1 of those that clicked greed says "welcome to ignore list noob sniper" (meaning me) people really should learn that the whole point of a game is to relax.

 

But really - I'm not trying to make that point, seriously, even if my comment was like that. As I said, as soon as I port in "I'm doing all for achievement", if one complains I'll ignore him, if all complain and are against it I'll leave, it seems rather fair. No cursing, ************, hard feelings, anything, I can't and won't force people to do something if they don't want to.

 

My whole idea is that when you have different people wanting different stuff, and in this case we are talking about flashpoint, is that either somebody will back down and do what other guy wants, or one of them will leave because he doesn't want to do that - had that situation while I was leveling my sage dps, healer wanted to do full D7, rest of us didn't. He said gl and he left, no hard feelings.

And in that situations, tanks is the the one who decides and the one who "wins". Is it because tanks get insant pop and without them you are stuck in quee for 1 hour? Yeah, probably it is, is it fair? Probably it isnt...

 

You don't care about bonus, people who are into those things care. To them doing just end boss, while skping 2-3-4 infront which count as well is pointless. In that case, they will either kill all or just leave.

I'm pretty sure it is General Order 1 in PUGs that "Thou Must Have Greater Gear Than What Dropeth Here.' But it is true for all roles. Tanks may get the more creative flak, but PUGs are chock-a-block full of weird expectations.

 

Yes, but why full Black Market requirement for level 50 HMs?

Nevermind, I couldn't tank those anyway because I've never done any HMs apart from BT.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Halinalle

Yes, but why full Black Market requirement for level 50 HMs?

 

I'll be honest: I have never seen that demand made of anyone in my GF FPs. But, as it is a frequent theme in this thread, I'll take it on face value that it happens.

 

Why? I suspect because people know PUGs are not a sure thing and want to minimize risk as much as possible. Although, obviously, if you demand that someone has all the gear that drops ... why would they queue ... making tanks (or healers or even DPS) even rarer.

HM cad on my jugg tank. Healers were quite the issue this night.

 

TLDR: Healer 1 wanted guard, quit when he didn't get it. New team didn't know what they were doing, wipes at Xander and last boss. Beefy merc to save the day.

 

Healer #1

Zone in. DPS hp kinda low, but healer is at 32k so I think we should be fine. He takes forever to zone in and move, but finally we start. Now, when I tank Cad HM, i usually hit one of the groups at the bottom of elevator 1, just in case we don't have enough mobs for the bonus by the time we get to it. That's probably not the norm but oh well, it's what I chose to do.

 

Mobs are spread out, with the gold farther away that moved into combat. As soon as I realize i jump to it, and some of the weaker mobs end up hitting the healer.

 

Afterwards the healer says,

"why are you attacking large groups that you don't have to?

"And not keeping aggro?"

There was obvious condescension behind that question. I felt like saying more, but all i said was, "calm down."

Then we're at the group after the cantina ambush. There's usually a gold droid further in that circulates, and I didn't see it, so I just focused on the 4. Of course, once the droid came into range, healer aggro does its thing and the droid boss shoots like 2 lasers before i taunt it.

 

After, he asks for a guard. This is how the conversation went:

“Can i get a guard?”

Me: “Do you really need the 5% damage reduction?”

“Apparently”

“I could also use the threat reduction “

Me: “you don't need threat reduction”

“Apparently “

Me: “You're not pulling threat from me. You're pulling threat from a mob that nobody's attacking.”

So I explained how if nobody is hitting the mob, healer aggro will pick it up. Didn't even want to attempt to mention DPS kill priority.

"i'm not going to argue with you all night”

So I said, "suits me" and added a, "read about it, please" right before he quit group. His dps friend also left right after. So, we waited, and 5 minutes later we get 2 more. Great, I didn't do a quick hp check, i was just so happy i could actually finish the weekly.

 

Healer #2

Turns out the healer had 20k health. Had trouble keeping me up and apologized for his bad gear, but I usually dont make a fuss over that. Besides, it wasn't even his lack of healing that caused problems, but his skills in general.

 

So, Xander. I made sure to ask if anyone had not done it before. Only 1 spoke up, so I explained it. When the droid started to target, nobody moved behind the circle. The healer got stuck in the box twice, and the others got frozen multiple times. It was a mess usually typical of SM runs but oh well, we finished on the 3rd time.

 

Wiped twice on the way to the Wookie. First was at the bridge where the 4 appear if you go too far. Healer went too far. Next round, The three of them ran off and agrroed the group at the elevator while i was farther behind, wipe.

 

The original DPS said he had to leave and quit (mmhmm). Replaced with a beefy 39k Merc (at this point i'm with an entirely new group). First time he stole threat on wookie, guarded. Smooth sailing until final boss. Merc and I explain the fight, but the first two die in the fire. Merc resses healer but healer doesn't move and dies again. We almost get him down but I get shackled at an inopportune moment and die, Merc tries heroically but dies with boss at 4%. 2nd try, the healer and dps die again in the fire. Merc resses healer again, he stays alive this time, and we down him.

Edited May 13, 2014 by BigBreakfast

...Being the tank doesn't mean you are the leader. It only means you are the one initiating the combat. Nothing more, nothing less...

 

This.

 

Whatever happened to manners? To think that you are anything more than combat coordinator/meat shield is ridiculous. Ask for extras first... if 3 don't want to do it, why inconvenience all of them? Being a tank is not an excuse to be selfish. You are not special; you simply fill a role.

To think that you are anything more than combat coordinator/meat shield is ridiculous.

 

Remove "combat coordinator" from that and it's closer to truth.

That title is now exclusive to Marauder/Sentinel/Sniper.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Halinalle

To think that you are anything more than combat coordinator/meat shield is ridiculous. <snip> You are not special; you simply fill a role.

I do believe that all players should be acting cooperatively in a group, and should not be rude.

 

That said, I firmly believe that a tank IS something special, and more than just a "meat shield". Do you realize that anyone that tanks has decided to give up 2/3rds of the damage they COULD be doing, for the sole purpose of helping the group survive?

 

Any mechanic-heavy content is dependent upon the tank positioning, taunting at the right time, and knowing what to do. The tank has to control the field of battle and help keep the group alive. A good tank is a gem, and IS special.

HM cad on my jugg tank. Healers were quite the issue this night.

 

TLDR: Healer 1 wanted guard, quit when he didn't get it. New team didn't know what they were doing, wipes at Xander and last boss. Beefy merc to save the day.

 

Your luck is almost as bad as mine

 

I had an Assault on Tython as a Sorc with a 30k Assassin with no lightsaber charge, a Sorc healer with 23k HP, and a Mara with 15k HP who spammed Assault at full rage, asked for 'help' several seconds after he was dead, and needed on willpower gear.

 

Harbinger community, working as intended.

I do believe that all players should be acting cooperatively in a group, and should not be rude.

 

That said, I firmly believe that a tank IS something special, and more than just a "meat shield". Do you realize that anyone that tanks has decided to give up 2/3rds of the damage they COULD be doing, for the sole purpose of helping the group survive?

 

Any mechanic-heavy content is dependent upon the tank positioning, taunting at the right time, and knowing what to do. The tank has to control the field of battle and help keep the group alive. A good tank is a gem, and IS special.

 

I probably oversimplified myself, but for the most part I believe it's true.

 

I consider what you described falls under my unofficial term of combat coordinator. Yes, being a tank does come with increased responsibility. Not terribly so in a simple flashpoint, but very much so in an op. As you said, he must know the mechanics and, etc.. But that's still your responsibility and job as a tank.

 

A tank should initiate combat when the group is ready, not just when he is. And giving up damage is not a noble sacrifice, it's a conscious decision made when you spec as a tank.

 

But, you're right. A GOOD tank is special, and will inspire confidence in his teammates. If I see a good tank I will stay beside him, wait for him, and listen to his directions, even if it's doing something extra, because I see that he's putting out extra effort to help the group. That's respect that's earned though, and not automatically awarded simply because he has a shield symbol.

 

But, even if the tank is less than stellar, I still have my manners when part of a group. That's all it really comes down to.

Edited May 13, 2014 by BigBreakfast

That said, I firmly believe that a tank IS something special, and more than just a "meat shield". Do you realize that anyone that tanks has decided to give up 2/3rds of the damage they COULD be doing, for the sole purpose of helping the group survive?

 

Well to be fair, they aren't doing it for the "group to survive" they are doing it for the quick queue.

 

Manners are always important. The few times I tank, I always let the group decide what to do, and if I am ever against something, there is usually a good reason-which I provide. When I heal (quite often), I also let the group decide what they want to do and usually just follow the tank. Even in times when I heal and my friend tanks (instapop 100% of the time, day or night, rain or shine), we still respect everyone and let them decide what they want to do. Even in times when DPS are being douches, we don't leave or kick, we just put up with it and finish it up.

 

That being said, whether anyone likes it or not, in a pug, the tank usually has most of the decision making power since he always has the ability to leave, re-queue and get a quick pop; while the rest of us might end up waiting for quite a while until another shows up. Denying that this exists is just being in denial. Some tanks do take advantage of this scenario we are in and act like douches. Not much we can do except put up with it or leave.

 

But in all my experience, I rarely got tanks that act that way, most of them are respectful, courteous and like me and my friend, usually give a reason why they don't want to do stuff (or why they do). Some of the biggest douches I ever played with were actually dps, and from what my friend tells me, he has had plenty of nightmare healers when he pugged alone.

Remove "combat coordinator" from that and it's closer to truth.

That title is now exclusive to Marauder/Sentinel/Sniper.

 

This... As combat sent... I hate it when tank intiate on a boss when I'm building a centering stack activating zen just to build a second centring to finally activate inspiration... You, yes you the tank, you initiate when I have my second centering stack ready, not 1 second before, not 1 second after.

 

And as any sniper/slinger... I want to use my FB/OS so you let me cast and intiate just before the first tick while I cast Aimed Shot.

But in all my experience, I rarely got tanks that act that way, most of them are respectful, courteous and like me and my friend, usually give a reason why they don't want to do stuff (or why they do). Some of the biggest douches I ever played with were actually dps, and from what my friend tells me, he has had plenty of nightmare healers when he pugged alone.

 

Last I'm going to say on this derail, but, this is mostly my experience too. I have met perhaps one or two jerk tanks. A grouchy, self-important healer or three, but the majority of the jerks I've met are the DPS. Which I find funny because: good DPS can afford to ignore a few tanks and healers as they probably have a guild ... bad DPS is probably reliant on the GF and if they keep getting ignored, well, that queue is just getting longer and longer. My sidetrack, sorry OP, was just due to the blatant attitude of that one poster. On the whole, my experiences in GF, aren't too bad.

I'll start off with a story

 

Was a fair while back, perhaps around 9 months or so when I first started levelling my Guardian Tank which has become my main

FP: Athiss SM

Group: Myself as Tank, 2 Sentinel DPS's and a Sage Healer.

 

This is a story about a Sentinel who we will call Jim (not his real name)

 

All went fairly smoothly up until after the big beast. A bit of sentinel Jim charging in first, but I was new to tanking so just the best I could.

We make it into the old ruins where the sith are and I start the first pull in the room of the stationary sith warrior (where you have a warrior and sorcerer + the roaming warrior pat). The fight starts, I move the warrior back a bit to avoid agroing the other two, however Sentinel Jim thinks one is not enough... he decides he needs to get the sorcerer's attention so I end up taunting the Sorcerer and move close to him while focussing on the warrior.

 

Now the Jedi who was healing is doing a good job of keeping me going with two of them, so Sentinel Jim decides two is not enough..., remember that roaming pat? Yup Jim goes and gets him too!

Unfortunately three was more than enough to handle and we wiped... but we were able to down the first warrior right before death lol

 

For the rest of the run Sentinel Jim also kept pulling more sorcerer's on our way to the last boss lol. To be honest I could do nothing but laugh lol, was just so funny to start fight and see Sentinel Jim wonder off to find another enemy to bring back to the group

 

After we manage to down the last boss, we thanked each other and left on good terms. Was definitely a run that was a challenge but also fun lol. I salute the healer as they would of had to work much harder than normal due to the Sentinel Jim

 

 

Just on the recent Tank discussions in this thread; I do run hit the GF queue weekly sometimes with a Guildie but also solo, not because I need to, but because I enjoy the FP's and also playing with new folks.

I enjoy tanking and always endeavour to come across as kind and relaxed and am more than happy to help those in need. I also always do the bonus boss's unless some say in the group they don't want it.

 

Whether people think it or not; I do believe the Tank role is a leadership role. Sure you start combat, but you also are choosing which mobs to fight and what strategy to employ for boss fights. A good tank is one who does the best he/she can and cares for the group while also not being demanding or dictating, its a fine balance to achieve and unfortunately the Tank role does attract those with big ego's etc...

 

I would also have agree that most of the undesirables I have met in GF are DPS's. I have met the odd Heals and also Tank also, but for some reason the DPS seems to stand out - maybe because there are more of them about

 

Anyway I will conclude in say; whichever role you perform, do your best and if everyone in the group does that; everyone has fun and the FP runs smooth. I have been fortunate to have good groups in GF where everyone just works wonderfully together

 

To all the good and nice players; keep up the good work!

To all the naughty ones, you know who you are, I look forward to meeting you in GF

To all the naughty ones, you know who you are, I look forward to meeting you in GF

 

Yep I like the naughty player too... especially when it becomes steamy /pervet off

KDY SM (sometimes NiM)

Shadow tank, Guardian tank, Vanguard dps and Sentinel dps

 

Some things I noticed during this run:

- Some players just like to stand there and watch while you die, they make it look like they don't know what to do or don't see the enemy even if it's right in front of them.

- Same players also like to run away from Elite Defender while still in combat with said Elite Defender

 

Lieutenant Krupp:

Everyone knows "the standard" strategy for this, right? Apparently not everyone...

Guardian and Sentinel decided to use both consoles and both kolto stations just before the fight. They also ignored the adds.

 

I give this group solid 8/10 in troll scale.

Also would like to say "thank you" for Vanguard for at least trying to be team player. Unfortunately it's not always enough in groups like this.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Halinalle