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What some don't understand about Neutrality.


Latorn

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If you have any idea how the conversation system in SWTOR works, you'll realize there is no "grey" or neutral option that gives you "grey" or neutral points. GOOD, I AGREE, THIS WOULD BE STUPID.

 

 

This is not the problem with the current alignment system and restriction of relics & other gear.

 

The problem ISN'T a player making a neutral choice in one instance, but IS a player deciding to make a dark choice, and then in another quest make a light choice. The player has picked a side, made a decision, yet these two decisions counter each other out and leave a player in the "grey" neutral zone. In case it isn't apparent, this system currently punishes players for making their own choices in different quests. The system encourages players to not make their own choices, but rather make the same light side decision over and over, or the same dark side decision, so that the player is not gimped (alignment restricts access to relics and other gear <edit: and for those of you who say its not true, take a look at these 90 relics for example>).

 

 

Bioware, please fix the most unique feature your MMO has. I honestly believe this should priority #1, ahead of new flashpoints and operations. Either neutral relics need to be implemented, and alignment restrictions stripped from other gear. Or all alignment gear needs to be swapped with gear that is purely cosmetic. Without these fixes decision making will remain broken, and quests will turn into every other MMO quest (albeit with voice acting).

 

 

 

Edit #2: It seems like all neutral related threads are being moved from the general forums and being hidden in the story and lore forums... >.< Disappointing.

Edited by Latorn
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Yeah, their light/dark system is really problematic and not very well thought-out.

 

Either you pick light or dark and you stick with it. But then what's the point of creating the character you want and making the choices you want to make? They're taken away from you in favour of getting enough dark/light points for their respective vendors, while the people who are 'neutral' or tend to pick light and dark equally are completely screwed.

 

For example on my Jedi Guardian, I don't really have a problem with all the light choices because it just fits my character.

 

On the other hand, my Powertech is a bit of a b*tch but she has morals, and so often I'm choosing dark OR light depending on the outcome and how I think she would respond in that situation. This has left me with around 850 dark points and 500 light points, putting me just at 350 dark, at level 17. If I continue on this path, there won't be anything for me end game at the light/dark vendors. And if there is, it's likely that only the first tiers will be available, and of course, these are not as good as the tier 5 items.

Edited by Esaru
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I agree there needs to be Neutral gear. I don't understand why there isn't, considering a lot of people like to play a morally gray character. At least this would be a pretty easy fix, I just hope they decide to do it.

 

If they don't:

 

A lot of people not getting relics = gimped characters = people quitting game or rerolling and choosing light or dark choice every time = loss of subscription + loss of games unique feature.

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Sigh, the mods always move light/dark side threads to the 'story and lore' section of the forum :rolleyes:

 

probably so no one ends up reading this, they know their system they've got set up here is crap, lol

 

:\

Edited by Esaru
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Easy fix, continously run Flashpoints and choose light side or dark side in group communications.

 

It's really not that hard >.> I got Dark II from just running Black Talon multiple times.

 

It's really cosmetic but at the same time these things should also be important; that's why they're implemented.

 

When it comes to being level 50, I'm sure that by that time you should be some awesome Dark Sith Lord (because really, how many caring Sith are there) or some Jedi who follows the light. While I agree that I'm not a maniac that simply chooses Dark or Light all the time, understand that it's there as a gate. Those who choose will simply have a longer time obtaining alignment gear and vice versa.

 

There shouldn't be any straight shots to gear (as there should be many paths and personally this is another path) and I like it like that. Plus it makes you pay attention to your actions so I think Bioware's doing fine.

 

Really, don't complain about this, it's fine.

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In case it isn't apparent, this system currently punishes players for making their own choices in different quests. The system encourages players to not make their own choices, but rather make the same light side decision over and over, or the same dark side decision, so that the player is not gimped.[/u]

 

False argument.

 

You want to go 'gray' (which is a ridiculous notion given the framework of the system) and you are still constrained by the game.

 

You do not have a choice because you have to play the numbers. Even if you act like you are free as a bird to do what you want, when you get to 990 light or dark points, then next decision or three are made for you. You have to go the other way.

 

If you have been too light, then the next three people you have to kill, or lie to, or extort, or mistreat in whatever other way in order to not become light or dark 1.

 

That's not freedom. Further, it creates a system where characters act irrationally. They are enslaved by an imperfect system.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

You are not in any way forced to make the same decision over and over and over.

 

My character is free. My character makes the decision that seems right at the time. Maybe it means making a dark choice now and then, but my character is basically a light character.

 

So what? Those few hundred dark points I have built up are what makes my character who they are rather than some charicature.

 

This game and this system are built for characters like that. Characters that are heroes or villains, that are light or dark.

 

It does not, however, require that a character be only light or only dark.

 

Anyone trying to stay in the middle and pretenr that they are neutral are delusional, though.

 

They are bipolar, and a bigger slave to the system than any light or dark character that I play will ever be.

 

When all you think about are the numbers, then you lose any claim on freedom. Turn off the show alignment on mouseover options, take your finger off the Esc key, and just play the game.

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False argument.

 

You want to go 'gray' (which is a ridiculous notion given the framework of the system) and you are still constrained by the game.

 

You do not have a choice because you have to play the numbers. Even if you act like you are free as a bird to do what you want, when you get to 990 light or dark points, then next decision or three are made for you. You have to go the other way.

 

If you have been too light, then the next three people you have to kill, or lie to, or extort, or mistreat in whatever other way in order to not become light or dark 1.

 

That's not freedom. Further, it creates a system where characters act irrationally. They are enslaved by an imperfect system.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

You are not in any way forced to make the same decision over and over and over.

 

My character is free. My character makes the decision that seems right at the time. Maybe it means making a dark choice now and then, but my character is basically a light character.

 

So what? Those few hundred dark points I have built up are what makes my character who they are rather than some charicature.

 

This game and this system are built for characters like that. Characters that are heroes or villains, that are light or dark.

 

It does not, however, require that a character be only light or only dark.

 

Anyone trying to stay in the middle and pretenr that they are neutral are delusional, though.

 

They are bipolar, and a bigger slave to the system than any light or dark character that I play will ever be.

 

When all you think about are the numbers, then you lose any claim on freedom. Turn off the show alignment on mouseover options, take your finger off the Esc key, and just play the game.

 

I don't think you understand my argument. I'm not trying to go "grey" or neutral, I've ended up sliding between Light I, Dark I and neutral based on the decisions I've made.

 

Please read the very start of my post, because unless I've misunderstood you you've missed the entire purpose of this thread.

 

 

 

Oh and it's not about numbers, it's about access to gear (example). However, when I play I don't think about gear or numbers, I play the game how I want and that's how I've arrived at this point.

Edited by Latorn
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False argument.

 

You want to go 'gray' (which is a ridiculous notion given the framework of the system) and you are still constrained by the game.

 

You do not have a choice because you have to play the numbers. Even if you act like you are free as a bird to do what you want, when you get to 990 light or dark points, then next decision or three are made for you. You have to go the other way.

 

If you have been too light, then the next three people you have to kill, or lie to, or extort, or mistreat in whatever other way in order to not become light or dark 1.

 

That's not freedom. Further, it creates a system where characters act irrationally. They are enslaved by an imperfect system.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

You are not in any way forced to make the same decision over and over and over.

 

My character is free. My character makes the decision that seems right at the time. Maybe it means making a dark choice now and then, but my character is basically a light character.

 

So what? Those few hundred dark points I have built up are what makes my character who they are rather than some charicature.

 

This game and this system are built for characters like that. Characters that are heroes or villains, that are light or dark.

 

It does not, however, require that a character be only light or only dark.

 

Anyone trying to stay in the middle and pretenr that they are neutral are delusional, though.

 

They are bipolar, and a bigger slave to the system than any light or dark character that I play will ever be.

 

When all you think about are the numbers, then you lose any claim on freedom. Turn off the show alignment on mouseover options, take your finger off the Esc key, and just play the game.

 

Revanites are delusional....

 

The Grey path is about deliberately making choices, that to an outsider, might seem insane, because by choosing to maintain an internal balance between the 2, and working to balance the 2 against each other in the world so that you can harness both for greater personal power.

 

Grey is ultimately darksided, since the only reason to do it is to maintain access to both the light and the dark side.

 

Why can't I do this? If I choose to follow the teachings of Darth Revan(a choice that you have to actually make as a sith inquisitor) why am I punished by not being able to fill 2 entire gear slots?

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Edit #2: It seems like all neutral related threads are being moved from the general forums and being hidden in the story and lore forums... >.< Disappointing.

 

That IS disappointing. :eek:

 

I love the alignment system for the options it currently offers, as MMOs dont usually do this kind of stuff. And I have been able to act appallingly evil by the dark side choices so far, pretty unique in terms of games in general.

 

But the system shoehorning people to either light or dark is not a good thing.

Thats less immersive, not more. There needs to be more options than just the two imo, even though Im perfectly fine that this wouldn't apply to all situations. Life's full of tough choices, after all. There can be some. But not every conversation is about life and death.

 

While the devs may introduce more neutral alignment gear, I suspect we wont see them add more dialog options ot the current content, Im afraid. That would have to go through all the trouble that is involved for them to get voiceacted and all.

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That IS disappointing. :eek:

 

I love the alignment system for the options it currently offers, as MMOs dont usually do this kind of stuff. And I have been able to act appallingly evil by the dark side choices so far, pretty unique in terms of games in general.

 

But the system shoehorning people to either light or dark is not a good thing.

Thats less immersive, not more. There needs to be more options than just the two imo, even though Im perfectly fine that this wouldn't apply to all situations. Life's full of tough choices, after all. There can be some. But not every conversation is about life and death.

 

While the devs may introduce more neutral alignment gear, I suspect we wont see them add more dialog options ot the current content, Im afraid. That would have to go through all the trouble that is involved for them to get voiceacted and all.

 

I gotta say, there are plenty of unaligned options. Sometimes you come to a place where you can only choose light or dark, but thats in those life or death situations(ordered ti save evil pirates life, you get a chance to kill him, ordered to kill witnesses you get a chance to spare them) so I don't think its an issue of the actual conversation choices. Its an issue of gear.

 

I WANT A RELIC! :mad:

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I gotta say, there are plenty of unaligned options. Sometimes you come to a place where you can only choose light or dark, but thats in those life or death situations(ordered ti save evil pirates life, you get a chance to kill him, ordered to kill witnesses you get a chance to spare them) so I don't think its an issue of the actual conversation choices. Its an issue of gear.

 

Yea, I guess so. I think I wasn't paying that much attention from the beginning since I knew I was going to be eeevil from the start. :) And boy has Bioware delivered so far :cool:

 

Now next thing is for bioware to deliver enough costume options so we can look the part

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I agree with the context of this thread as a whole. I'm not saying, yeah let's make "Gray" stuff cause on the one side of the argument, I agree. That's just kinda dumb in many ways, but I respect the "Revanite" philosophy but when I do things on my Bounty Hunter for example I'm not really "Grey" I go where I want my character to go...where the credits are. I A lot of times, if I feel I'm not being paid to do something enough I won't do it and it will yield LS points or if I was paid to bring a boy back and murder his father because it was what I was -paid- to do that will yield DS points. In the black talon, for example, Kilran heavily inferred the imperial treasury would be grateful to do what was requested and he wanted the captain dead (DS points) and would prefer the General returned (LS points) which is what I tend to do even though I gave kilran a hard time because my bounty hunter doesn't really care for authority or the empire as a whole, just money. (doing those two options makes me walk out even dark/light) I've already RPed that if the republic had a bounty board I'd be working for them too. So, it becomes difficult later on to use restricted items for this reason. So while' I'm not exactly in "neutral" since I have like 750 LS points and around 600 DS points because decisions I would make as a character -myself-.

 

I'm also having a similar problem on my inquisitor, I'm doing selfish things or what I like to think as "planting" seeds of dissent for later to confuse other Sith so I can rise to power and I've already yielded quite a bit of LS from it. I'm about 800 LS and 700 DS, because I'm doing it for -me- and if I feel I'm ever questioned(even though that wouldnt happen but I like to immerse in my character) I could simply pin it on the person who assigned me the mission with enough cunning. It's not for some self righteous point of view I do this. I'm not trying to be "unique" in rolling a LS Sith because I know people want to do that like they are somehow "breaking the mold", far from it. I'm trying to RP a "Machiavelli/Sun Tzu" type character by balancing subjugation of being Feared and Loved and if you cannot have both then it is probably better to be Feared.

 

This is the issue of this thread, there has to be someway to make it work. Instead of maybe saying Dark 1 alignment maybe it could be Dark 1 alignment -or- 2000 alignment points total...or something. I'm sure there is other ways of approaching it where they can reward people who stay on one path and ways to appeal to people who like to make decisions based on how they want to play their characters.

Edited by Robidius
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I've been pretty sad about the lack of neutral choices and to an extent gear for it. As a bounty hunter I've always went for credits choices and if there are no credits I kill them if they tried to kill me. Sadly there are a lot of Light or Dark only choices and many of those are not choices I would make, but I'm kinda forced to...
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Not looking for neutral choices because that's a matter of perspective the outcomes you pick must lead somewhere, not nowhere. I'm more on the side of the original point in this thread about how it pertains to gear and how it kind of unfortunately seems to force people to meta game instead of making the choices they want to make. It would be nice if it scaled or something like I suggested earlier...perhaps
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They've already said they plan to add some comparable "neutral" gear for those who want to play a neutral alignment. Moot point until we see what they come up with.

 

I wouldn't mind the lack of options like the light/darksiders have, but having those 2 open slots bugs me, and leaves me gimped. Not asking for special perks, just basic coverage.

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The reason 'being neutral' is something you have to work for is that the morality scale in TOR is a lot of light, a sliver of neutral, and a lot of dark:

 

 

|--------------------light side-----------------|-neutral-|---------------------dark side-----------------|

 

Basically, you must make decisions to stay neutral at all times. The real problem is that it is too easy to flop between light and dark over a few levels and gear depends on this choice.

 

A true logical solution would be to either widen the neutral zone or not make light/dark matter until level II or III. That gives a chance for leaning towards one side instead of all or nothing.

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