Honestly, 'have fun' groups are the worst ones. 99% of the time they're better off replacing a 'fun guy' with a PUG and they'll live longer. The guys who 'have fun' are the DPS breaking my CC, or the healer that gets one shot by 5 strong mobs. Even if you can heal for infinite amount of healing on the tank himself, the hardest pulls involve multiple Strong mobs coming from different directions, which is impossible for a tank to aggro them all, so the tank takes 25K damage, you heal 25K damage, and then the Strong mobs coming from the direction the tank can't cover one shots the healer.

 

The 5 droid pull has all 5 droids doing charged burst at the same time for 5K each. Then they also do their normal attack after that, so you're taking 25K damage + 5 direct attacks at the same time. It's likely some of it is going to miss/shielded so you'll usually live but this is an amount where survival is definitely not guaranteed. Same with the 5 dog pulls. If the tank survived without a CD it's not because the healer is good. It's because the tank was lucky some of those hits didn't connect. These HMs aren't that hard but if you don't take them seriously you will most definitely die. Now if you can ensure you're the only person dying I don't actually care very much, but there isn't exactly a lot of margin of error to ensure you're the only one paying a repair bill.

And you missed the whole point . I know the tanks I run with they want me to push the limits .. I did say we use CC as needed .. the fun I'm talking about you don't seems see what I mean .

I generally object to CC'ing either of those droids, at least as a healer. Because 1 of 2 things usually results from a tank that insists on CCing them:

 

A. My CC lands before the tank pulls, giving me agro on everything, and I die.

B. The tank pulls before I start casting my CC, and doesn't think to use a defensive, so by the time my CC lands and I get the tank targeted they are already at 30% health and dropping quickly, and die before my first real heal can land.

 

IMO, much better to just let the tank pull so he can already be setup with a bubble, hot, and I can be pre-casting. If the tank thinks to use a defensive, the pull is super easy (saber reflect FTW!). But even if they don't, as long as they can get agro on more than one thing, it is survivable.

I have definitely encountered what you speak of

Sometimes when I mezz pull, if I don't have full faith in the tank, I will start the cast and break it before it finishes over and over until I see force charge/jet charge animation. Then I simply let the cast go through and start healing. Biggest thing to watch for on that pull is line of sight on the tank.

Generally speaking the strong mobs are responsible for the most significant amount of damage so in a pure damage prevention model you might want to mez the strong first.

 

In light of the fact the strong mobs have signficantly less HP than an elite, it usually makes more sense to mez the elite first and burn down the strong instead.

 

Weak and standards are pretty much non factors because the tank can keep them stunned for a very long time with any attack that stuns weak/normal mobs and there's a lot of them.

I agree entirely with your last two bullets. What exactly is a damage prevention model though? Do strongs actually hit harder than elites? I get the feeling that during soloing they don't, but obviously that isn't what we are talking about here. I know a lot of elites have cast time or channeled abilities that can be interrupted, is this what would reduce their damage below the strongs?

Sorry if any of my questions are dumb, just trying to get a better grasp on what is doing the most damage, and what this model is you speak of.

So I am just going to come out with it: healing these revamped flash points for level 55 is HORRIBLE. Why is it that Bioware thought that the best way to make level 55 FPs "challenging" was to give the healers an even more difficult time when they ALREADY had the hardest job in a group.

 

Before 55 lvl FPs, a well geared healer could help keep up an ok geared Tank. Now the tank has to be ridiculously almost over geared for the two to stand a chance. I am referring to the DOTs that need to be cleansed in fight like the first boss in Hammer Station, the last boss in Athiss and the last boss in Mandalorian Raiders.

 

I have been in far too many FPs where even healers in full 69's quit because of far too many wipes. I foresee a great deal of less people wanting to bear the burden of being blame for wipes (because they already were) and even less people will choose to be healers. This role is already by FAR the least played and less desirable role. It was ALREADY difficult to come across great healers let alone good ones.

 

Help me out guys, am I just having bad luck with the 55 FPs?

I would suggest reevaluating your ability rotation. As far as great healers go, my experience is that the Imps tend to have better healers than the Reps.

I agree entirely with your last two bullets. What exactly is a damage prevention model though? Do strongs actually hit harder than elites? I get the feeling that during soloing they don't, but obviously that isn't what we are talking about here. I know a lot of elites have cast time or channeled abilities that can be interrupted, is this what would reduce their damage below the strongs?

 

Sorry if any of my questions are dumb, just trying to get a better grasp on what is doing the most damage, and what this model is you speak of.

What he means by damage prevention model is tailoring your kill order and CCs in such a way to minimize the damage done to the group, especially the tank, thereby increasing group survivability, etc.

And as for the rest and how it all works, elites do more damage than strongs, it's just that the ratio or mob damage to mob HPs make it the smart move generally to kill weakest to strongest. I don't remember the numbers but I think it's something like a strong mob does 25% less damage than an elite, but the elite has twice as many HPs. So just to use some completely made up numbers to illustrate the point...

Say you have 1 strong and 1 elite in the group, takes 10 seconds to kill the strong and 20 to kill the elite, 30 seconds total fight time no matter what order. Elite does 400 dps, so at 25% less the stong will do 300 dps.

If you kill the elite first that's 400 dps for 20 seconds - 8000 damage taken, then the strong dies so that's another 300 dps for 30 seconds - 9000 damage taken for a total of 17000 damage in 30 seconds.

Conversely if you kill the strong first that's 300 dps for 10 second - 3000 dps, then the elite dies so that's another 400 dps for 30 seconds - 12000 damage taken for a total of 15000 damage in 30 seconds.

So by killing the strong first you prevent 2000 damage from being taken by the tank. And that in a nutshell is the damage prevention model. CC the strongest when possible and kill the weak first to minimize incoming damage and reduce the likelihood of deaths and wipes.

What he means by damage prevention model is tailoring your kill order and CCs in such a way to minimize the damage done to the group, especially the tank, thereby increasing group survivability, etc.

 

And as for the rest and how it all works, elites do more damage than strongs, it's just that the ratio or mob damage to mob HPs make it the smart move generally to kill weakest to strongest. I don't remember the numbers but I think it's something like a strong mob does 25% less damage than an elite, but the elite has twice as many HPs. So just to use some completely made up numbers to illustrate the point...

 

Say you have 1 strong and 1 elite in the group, takes 10 seconds to kill the strong and 20 to kill the elite, 30 seconds total fight time no matter what order. Elite does 400 dps, so at 25% less the stong will do 300 dps.

 

If you kill the elite first that's 400 dps for 20 seconds - 8000 damage taken, then the strong dies so that's another 300 dps for 30 seconds - 9000 damage taken for a total of 17000 damage in 30 seconds.

 

Conversely if you kill the strong first that's 300 dps for 10 second - 3000 dps, then the elite dies so that's another 400 dps for 30 seconds - 12000 damage taken for a total of 15000 damage in 30 seconds.

 

So by killing the strong first you prevent 2000 damage from being taken by the tank. And that in a nutshell is the damage prevention model. CC the strongest when possible and kill the weak first to minimize incoming damage and reduce the likelihood of deaths and wipes.

Sounds legit and makes way more sense then the guy saying to CC strongs over elites

I agree entirely with your last two bullets. What exactly is a damage prevention model though? Do strongs actually hit harder than elites? I get the feeling that during soloing they don't, but obviously that isn't what we are talking about here. I know a lot of elites have cast time or channeled abilities that can be interrupted, is this what would reduce their damage below the strongs?

 

Sorry if any of my questions are dumb, just trying to get a better grasp on what is doing the most damage, and what this model is you speak of.

Yes, in general elites hit harder after factoring their special moves, but special moves can be interrupted. On the other hand most Strong mobs simply hit that hard the whole time. So in a pure DPS concern, you can often negate a significant portion of an Elite mob's DPS by interrupting its moves, but you rarely have this option against Strongs who simply hit that hard the whole time. Of course, a Strong mob only has about 40% the HP of an Elite, so generally it's better to burn down the Strong first anyway. Of course there are always exceptions. For example any dual wielding Jedi/Sith Elite type are pretty much 100% DPS all the time and have no moves to interrupt. Burning down Strong mobs work about 99% of the time, but you need to remember the true damage dealers are usually the Strongs, not the Elites.

Elite mobs don't necessarily even do more damge than a Strong. Strong mobs are nearly 100% DPS all the time. The most representative example would be the dogs in Mandolorian Raiders. If you ever aggro one of those and you're not the tank you know even one of those can chew you up before you realize what's going on. There's no damage prevention short of hard stuns or killing them. All they do is attack and attack some more.

Take the same instance and you get the Elite droids. They will open the fight spending 1.0s casting Concussion Pulse, a KB that is unlikely to have any impact on your survivality (unless your healer is for some reason in melee range). They'll then spend 3.0s casting Cannon Storm, which may or may not do a lot of damage but should be interrupted 100% of the time. And only then they'll go back to actually attacking someone, and if you're on top of your interrupting game they'll quickly try to recast Cannon Storm and Concussion Pulse once the lockout on ability is over, which should do no damage to you if your guys are good at interrupting. If you want to be clever you can even say use Force Charge to interrupt the first Cannon Storm, which has no lockout period so it will immediately try to cast Cannon Storm again and waste even more time doing no DPS.

Now of course most groups you get are the "Wat interrupt?" type and if the Elite does finish casting Cannon Storm he'll probably beat the DPS of a single dog, but he won't even beat two dogs and having a succesful Cannon Storm ought to be a relatively rare event. There's also the overriding factor of Strongs having about 40% the HP of an Elite.

Sounds legit and makes way more sense then the guy saying to CC strongs over elites

one thing you're not factoring in is that all this time is that either one at any time will probably be taking some sort of aoe damage as well. i've found times as a shadow tank using, slow time and force breach, force wave (as a soft interupt) if i'm doing damage to the elite often times the strong will be almost dead just from that damage.

also i've noticed that the strongs in the FP's seem to be tuned as "glass cannons" hit hard but die easily

So I am just going to come out with it: healing these revamped flash points for level 55 is HORRIBLE. Why is it that Bioware thought that the best way to make level 55 FPs "challenging" was to give the healers an even more difficult time when they ALREADY had the hardest job in a group.

 

Before 55 lvl FPs, a well geared healer could help keep up an ok geared Tank. Now the tank has to be ridiculously almost over geared for the two to stand a chance. I am referring to the DOTs that need to be cleansed in fight like the first boss in Hammer Station, the last boss in Athiss and the last boss in Mandalorian Raiders.

 

I have been in far too many FPs where even healers in full 69's quit because of far too many wipes. I foresee a great deal of less people wanting to bear the burden of being blame for wipes (because they already were) and even less people will choose to be healers. This role is already by FAR the least played and less desirable role. It was ALREADY difficult to come across great healers let alone good ones.

 

Help me out guys, am I just having bad luck with the 55 FPs?

I play a healer and I am mostly in 69 gear. I rarely run into problems if the tank knows what he/she are doing. if they do not, I can still manage, but mandalorian raiders can be get really difficult if dps gets attacked by the hounds or turrets. Also its final boss is much harder than the other fps and its difficult for the tank to maintain threat on the turrets. Also, competent dps can help a lot (and these are rare).

The problem with the new PvE content is the damage became too spiky as result of lower armor, shield and absorption rating, so if the healer is not on the tank like white on rice you can wipe very easily, which creates a problem of healer pulling threat. Before I used to wait 5-7 secs to make sure that tank got agro, and start healing after he goes below 25%. Now, in some pulls, if I wait 3-4 secs and tank did not use any defensive cool downs, its a wipe.

Athis last boss is very easy. Just avoid the purple circles and the fire, which are easy to avoid, and I would argue that a healer in 56 gear can heal it.

Unless you're talking about a pull where mobs come from different locations, it is trivial to hold aggro against trash mobs as a tank versus the healer. Healers usually get aggro because someone broke CC on a mob that the tank wasn't doing any aggro on (because it's CCed).

The problem with aggro is usually you've some DPS who take aggro without claiming responsibility. That is, any competent DPS should be able to solo even the killer dogs in Mandolorian Raiders by using stuns and, if needed, defensive CDs. But they don't do this. Honestly when you get jumped by 5 dogs you really would prefer the tank get 3 while each DPS picks up 1. You don't have to heal the DPS because they can each solo their dog (would come pretty close to dying, but they should win), so this leaves you with only 3 dogs to worry about on the tank which is certainly better than 5 dogs. Most likely you see a DPS get aggro and then they put the deaggro so that killer dog goes back to the tank, and while you're healing the DPS (who no longer has aggro) the tank dies. If you simply ignore the DPS dying everything should work out okay unless that DPS can't solo a strong by himself (in that case you're likely to have other problems later).

Unless you're talking about a pull where mobs come from different locations, it is trivial to hold aggro against trash mobs as a tank versus the healer. Healers usually get aggro because someone broke CC on a mob that the tank wasn't doing any aggro on (because it's CCed).

 

The problem with aggro is usually you've some DPS who take aggro without claiming responsibility. That is, any competent DPS should be able to solo even the killer dogs in Mandolorian Raiders by using stuns and, if needed, defensive CDs. But they don't do this. Honestly when you get jumped by 5 dogs you really would prefer the tank get 3 while each DPS picks up 1. You don't have to heal the DPS because they can each solo their dog (would come pretty close to dying, but they should win), so this leaves you with only 3 dogs to worry about on the tank which is certainly better than 5 dogs. Most likely you see a DPS get aggro and then they put the deaggro so that killer dog goes back to the tank, and while you're healing the DPS (who no longer has aggro) the tank dies. If you simply ignore the DPS dying everything should work out okay unless that DPS can't solo a strong by himself (in that case you're likely to have other problems later).

Simple solution, triage. The DPS is not worth heals on that pull, unless you're throwing an instant AoE bomb heal the tank and have your own aggro wipe ready to go if necessary. You know the damage on that pull is obscene, the tank _must_ live a DPS can die.

I play a healer and I am mostly in 69 gear. I rarely run into problems if the tank knows what he/she are doing. if they do not, I can still manage, but mandalorian raiders can be get really difficult if dps gets attacked by the hounds or turrets.

 

That fight with the 2 untauntable dogs is usually screwed up by dps and healers. That happens when they try to avoid (by running like headless chickens ) the dogs that are attacking them. It's useless. They reset aggro every several seconds. They have to pop a defense and deal with it. Dpsers and healer must stay together like brothers in misfortune, papa tank is away keeping the evil boss busy. If they get pushed, they have to run back to the bunch for aoe healing. Boss doesn't do much damage so tank doesnt need much attention from healer.

Also its final boss is much harder than the other fps and its difficult for the tank to maintain threat on the turrets. Also, competent dps can help a lot (and these are rare).

That happens to me. I struggle there with my jugg. I can't seem to find a good spot to smash/sweep both turrets and boss so I can build some good threat on all them. I wound up kind of wasting my taunts :-/

Also, does the boss do an aggro reset when he jumps to those corners with the turrets ? It looks to me like he does, since I've noticed that on ocassions, if I'm busy with the turrets (and so are the dps) he will quickly turn to the healer, not the dps that should be on a higher position on the threat table after me.

That fight with the 2 untauntable dogs is usually screwed up by dps and healers. That happens when they try to avoid (by running like headless chickens ) the dogs that are attacking them. It's useless. They reset aggro every several seconds. They have to pop a defense and deal with it. Dpsers and healer must stay together like brothers in misfortune, papa tank is away keeping the evil boss busy. If they get pushed, they have to run back to the bunch for aoe healing. Boss doesn't do much damage so tank doesnt need much attention from healer.

 

 

 

 

That happens to me. I struggle there with my jugg. I can't seem to find a good spot to smash/sweep both turrets and boss so I can build some good threat on all them. I wound up kind of wasting my taunts :-/

 

Also, does the boss do an aggro reset when he jumps to those corners with the turrets ? It looks to me like he does, since I've noticed that on ocassions, if I'm busy with the turrets (and so are the dps) he will quickly turn to the healer, not the dps that should be on a higher position on the threat table after me.

For the dog fight I usually just tell the DPS "Stand on me for AoE heals or you will die." Solves most of the problems.

I'm somewhat sure there is an aggro dump, just because generally between platforms I throw a hot out or hit my self heal and I'm taking shots from him, it's nothing major but it does seem to happen. I haven't had too many problems even with major heal output in pulling threat off from the turrets and boss, and I generally run at least one or two HM pug FPs a day to keep my emergency healing chops up. (The randomness factor and unfamiliarity with the playstyles helps a lot in getting you to be on your toes with your heals imho.) If there isn't I'm almost constantly running dangerously close to pulling aggro, might test this with a group torparse to look at a TPS for me versus the tank.

The best I've seen so far was a tank standing on the boss with DPS focusing one turret at a time, once the tank establishes aggro it's been hard for me to peel it back off as a healer even dumping out AoE healing and other massive heals. If I happen to pull a turret I have an aggro wipe, there's already generally a salvation ticking under my feet so it's not a major deal.

The only time healing gets rough in that fight is when people eat the missile. It's of course impossible if the boss transitions too soon and we get the +500% turret damage debuff (longest I lasted before going totally OOF was about 30 seconds with 3 turrets up)

The final boss on Mandolorian Raiders, like most bosses, have an attack that randomly hits someone with no respect to aggro list. People usually panic too much when they see the boss randomly turn around to attack someone, not realizing that this is completely intended. On that boss if you AE at where the boss is, that will usually cover all the turrets. However due to the significant healing required, AE alone isn't going to hold aggro on the turret your tank isn't attacking. What I usually do is switch to the other turret about 10 seconds into the fight to make sure I have aggro on it, and DPS can just tank the other turret with CD if needed. You don't want the second turret to start hitting your healer, as that's very bad news. DPS should be able to tank one just fine with their CDs, and taunt should definitely be back up after the DPS's defensive CD runs out.

The survivality of DPS in this game isn't really that low, especially when you consider a DPS almost never have to worry about conserving defensive CDs. Although ideally you want your DPS to all focus fire on the same target, having a DPS solo a strong works out just fine, and might even be the better way to do stuff if your tank/healer are relatively weak. Even relatively weak DPS can generally solo a dog, while there's no way a weak tank is going to tank 5 dogs at the same time.

The final boss on Mandolorian Raiders, like most bosses, have an attack that randomly hits someone with no respect to aggro list.

The thing is, there is a red circle for that, he turns to launch the easily avoided rocket. Tanks should understand how that mechanic works, and DPS/heals should _never ever ever EVER_ be hit by it.

The thing is, there is a red circle for that, he turns to launch the easily avoided rocket. Tanks should understand how that mechanic works, and DPS/heals should _never ever ever EVER_ be hit by it.

Not talking about the red circle. I think sometimes he simply shoots at another guy just to keep your healers from being too bored. The bonus boss on Cademimu randomly shocks someone that isn't the tank, again to keep healer from being too bored. It's a pretty common mechanism and sometimes people freak out to see the boss turn around to another guy for no apparent reason, because they're supposed to do that. These attacks are just meant to keep your healers on their toes.

Not talking about the red circle. I think sometimes he simply shoots at another guy just to keep your healers from being too bored. The bonus boss on Cademimu randomly shocks someone that isn't the tank, again to keep healer from being too bored. It's a pretty common mechanism and sometimes people freak out to see the boss turn around to another guy for no apparent reason, because they're supposed to do that. These attacks are just meant to keep your healers on their toes.

Most of the level 55 random attacks are easy to heal through (well, HM S+V Sunder wailing on a melee dps not so much, but the rest of them yes). The shock in from the Sep Sith in Cad only does about 12k. So just make sure teh dps (and yourself) are at no less then 60% hp at all times.

The final boss on Mandolorian Raiders, like most bosses, have an attack that randomly hits someone with no respect to aggro list. People usually panic too much when they see the boss randomly turn around to attack someone, not realizing that this is completely intended. On that boss if you AE at where the boss is, that will usually cover all the turrets. However due to the significant healing required, AE alone isn't going to hold aggro on the turret your tank isn't attacking. What I usually do is switch to the other turret about 10 seconds into the fight to make sure I have aggro on it, and DPS can just tank the other turret with CD if needed. You don't want the second turret to start hitting your healer, as that's very bad news. DPS should be able to tank one just fine with their CDs, and taunt should definitely be back up after the DPS's defensive CD runs out.

This is probably the worst way to go about getting both turrets. Unless the DPS are split between the turrets like idiots (this happens so often amongst pugs that it has become one of my primary sources of irritation), every tank should be able to maintain threat on *both* turrets at all times. It's actually pretty simple.

When the boss leaps away, while the turrets are spawning, thrown down a couple of AoEs on him; Slow Time and Force Breach will both cleave to the turrets, Guardian Slash and Force Sweep should as well, Pulse Cannon and the HiB cleave will do the job (Mortar Volley should be able to as well). If you're a Guardian, just throw save Saber Reflect for when the Turrets have popped up and you'll have all the threat you'll ever need on them (9k from Saber Reflect itself and then even more from the actual reflected damage since ranged attacks are *all* the turrets do). Once you've used your 2-3 consecutive AoE casts, swap over to the turret that the DPS are going to focus on. Whenever your AoE comes up again, you can either use it on the turret so that the other turret isn't caught in it or you can swap over to the boss and make sure all 3 are caught in it. AoE damage is only taboo in that fight when DPS are dropping it. Tank AoEs don't hit hard enough to actually cause Mavrix to swap over soon enough, so it's not going to be a concern.

Healer threat, on the other hand, is a complete joke, as it has always been. If the second turret *does* swap over to the healer before the first turret is dead, just swap targets to the second turret for half of a second, throw your taunt, and resume beating on the first turret. Healer threat is both diminished (50% base and often 35-40% after talents) and distributed (so if there are 3 NPCs in combat, all 3 get 33% of the total threat generated from a heal; if there are 5, all 5 get 20% of the total threat generated from a heal). Since there are 3 targets there, it's almost *impossible* for the turrets to swap to the healer if the tank has paid even the *smallest* amount of attention to them.

I am relativly new to lvl55 Merc healing but I always have the most trouble when dps gets trigger happy and pulls before the tank. Happens a lot in pug groups. Sometimes i have issues with a tank that cant hold agro and I get facerolled by a mob of mando dogs. Loving being a healer though it is a good change from dps. Happy to say only wipes caused have been from poor tanking agro management. Have not found any 55 HMs that have rediculous healing needed.

Easy fix. Rambo dps doesn't recieve anymore healing.

If or when 3 people attack 3 different mobs and the loose ones are hitting me, someone is going to die and it's not me or the tank.

Yes they rage at me, no i do not care. They usually shutup and focus fire after each died 2 or 3 times in a row.

This happened frequently when I was geared in Black Hol gear. Now I am in full 69 + some 72 and it doesnt happen anymore but when it does I just let him die.

The bouncing frog on hammer station I find slowly draining my resources til I'm pretty low at the end.

Only thing that really bothered me (offspec healing geared in accuracy dps gear ~L69) in the FP

I have a question for the OP what was the reason for this post any way ? I'm not calling you out etc I'm glad things are Hard we don't want them to easy. everyone remembers WoTLK , were at max level you could all most pull the full HM at once to the end boss . BY MAXX level I ment MAXX level for WOTLK ,

Which I don't want to see in SWTOR . unless your like 80 and the instances your pulling like that is 45 .

New FP's have already become far too easy I'm a shadow tank and I keep killing stuff by myself even if DPS die for some reason. Two runs through Mandalorian Riders yesterday and twice I killed the boss with two dogs before DPS killed the adds. Healer didn't even really need to heal me in that one too, my self heals are mostly more then the boss's damage. The only real issue is if I don't know the healer and DPS showing them positioning and sometimes telling about cleansing (like hammerstation). Also using target mark on turret pulls so everyone kills my target. I'm now in mix of Arcanian and Verpine/Underworld gear and I see healer started DPSing already so we are back to old time pre-2.0. Actually in one of the Mando Riders runs yesterday I think most of the DPS came from scoundrel healer as DPS had terrible gear.

First couple of runs in Dreadguard gear required focus from everyone, but as we were on early access even not guild groups were very good, actually I met some of the best Raiders on the server in those early FP runs and it were most fun FP's. And indeed with tanking stats dropped I was taking ****loads of damage for first couple of runs, but in 10 or so I had full 69 gear and it was no longer an issue. With new damage stats tanks (at elast shadows) can now also kill stuff on trash pulls (or even some boss fights) so it's actually much easier even if DPS die for some reason.

We will still wipe on some occasions if someone makes a huge mistake, but for a good focused group these are far too easy. I can't wait for some NiM and proper challenge.