But that's the point - it's not a reasonable effort. That would be ok. It's an unreasonable effort. You can either grind for weeks or months, depending on your commitment, to play new content (which you've already paid for, being a subscriber) or you can pay more on top of your sub fee for access.

 

That's a worrying development. Every subscriber should be concerned by this. I know I am.

 

This patch has also delivered holiday gear which you have to pay for, rather than acquire through questing. That's a new one for me, and again, a worrying development.

 

Imagine if the new WZ gear could only be purchased with Cartel Coins? Sounds luaghable, I know..... or it did until this patch landed.

 

There's a lot going on here that makes me feel very cold.

 

Exactly my friend. The problem here is that more and more desirable items are offered via cartel market only basically making me, as a subscriber, spend more than the $15 I'm already spending. This is what I think is wrong and if the trend continues, if I see that I can't look and play the way I want without spending more than $15 a month I will not be playing this game...

 

All last year people have been saying that this game is not worth 15 a month but now it seems that those same people are dumping a ton of money into cartel market... Well which one is it? Is it worth 15 or not?

 

I say that every item that is available via cartel market should be, in some way, attainable via some in game quest/quest chain to SUBSCRIBERS!!! This is a must or for me the game becomes P2W. I don't care what your definition of P2W is this is my definition... I will not be bullied into spending my hard earned money on a virtual world items that should be acquirable by me anyway because I"M A DAMN SUBSCRIBER!!!

 

I'm glad you were amused. I wouldn't consider Dreadguard/EWH gear being made available in the store P2W either. However, it would be absurd and wouldn't make much sense since BW wants endgame players to have something to do and to play that content.

 

Honestly, the whole Starship Upgrade scenario is a bit absurd in itself. Since the players that run starship missions are a small segment of the population, it seems like more of a test to me by BW/EA than anything else, a guage of how much players will tolerate in regard to the convenience factor. It certainly is on the slippery slope of what players deem acceptable in the store.

 

However, it's still not P2W.

 

I can agree with you that is likely that, prior to 1.6, a relatively small population of players did space missions. I am not sure what will happen post 1.6. I can agree as well on you slippery slope/tasting the markets remarks.

 

What I disagree with you is the set textbook definitions you quote as a base for your conclusions. To my knowledge, there are no established standards on what constitutes a P2W game. Certainly no developer would market a game that way. It is a qualifier that to me is still evolving precisely at this level of communication: game forums.

 

For instance, In a quick search I found no direct link in Wikipedia to P2W. There is a small article on F2P, which references some criticism about P2W and a link to the urban dictionary which contains a very generic short interpreation of what the word P2W has been use for.

 

So, for the sake of clarity, please let us know your sources and the basis for the definitions you are using. If your definitions are based on personal experience, is probably best to leave them as opinions.

I was really looking forward to the new space missions but these ship gear packs ruined the whole update for me. It's not just the new missions, in a sense the whole space subgame is now ruined by being too greedy.

 

Where is the sense of progress and achievement when you can get the best items for 10 bucks.

 

This is the first time I've actually considered changing my 6 month sub to something shorter. They promised and promised but its now pretty clear they don't understand where the line should be drawn. This put a serious dent in my faith for the future of the game.

 

Amen well said... The dark side has consumed BW more profit is not enough. The subscriber is now second class citizen of this game...

 

Yes, in a way, but most of the people upset were okay with leveling up going faster as it wasn't competing at end game content. The ship upgrades is end game content.

 

 

So what you seem to be saying is that P2W is ok as long as it is something that people don't want to grind but not if they do want to grind it, umm ok.

So what you seem to be saying is that P2W is ok as long as it is something that people don't want to grind but not if they do want to grind it, umm ok.

I'm actually not okay with any Pay 2 Win... but all of the legacy unlocks and such were shown when they were first introduced in the PTS. So we were prepared for all of these things like xp boost for leveling. But this ship upgrade thing went past the point of comfortability with this F2P model that BW is introducing.

 

With legacy perks it didn't really bother me. With Ship Upgrades it irritates me more, but still not enough. If they go farther by directly offering end game game for your toon (not your ship) or certain buffs that improve your endgame peformance in raids and PvP by simply buying it, yeah... then I'm on my way out.

Mm. I hate slippery slope as much as the next guy, but this is their second installment and they're already multiplying the length of a gear grind so spending real money becomes more attractive. Their first installment was not giving you enough quickbars so spending real money becomes more attractive.

 

Where does it stop, exactly?

I'm actually not okay with any Pay 2 Win... but all of the legacy unlocks and such were shown when they were first introduced in the PTS. So we were prepared for all of these things like xp boost for leveling. But this ship upgrade thing went past the point of comfortability with this F2P model that BW is introducing.

 

With legacy perks it didn't really bother me. With Ship Upgrades it irritates me more, but still not enough. If they go farther by directly offering end game game for your toon (not your ship) or certain buffs that improve your endgame peformance in raids and PvP by simply buying it, yeah... then I'm on my way out.

 

I agree with your overall response, not sure that this is past the point of comfortability though. I assume these items were not on the PTS cartel shop so I find that a bit sneeky, however as a subscriber who likes space missions I, for sure, will be grinding not buying.

I agree with your overall response, not sure that this is past the point of comfortability though. I assume these items were not on the PTS cartel shop so I find that a bit sneeky, however as a subscriber who likes space missions I, for sure, will be grinding not buying.

Oh yeah, totally agree with you as well. Exactly how I feel on all counts.

Where is the sense of progress and achievement when you can get the best items for 10 bucks.

 

There is no feeling of progress and achievement in grinding. The outcome is assured, it just takes longer.

Isn't Pay to Win buying gear that is only available for real money and that gear is more powerful than the best piece of gear you can get in game?

 

I just don't get this whole complaining campaign going on right now.

Mm. I hate slippery slope as much as the next guy, but this is their second installment and they're already multiplying the length of a gear grind so spending real money becomes more attractive. Their first installment was not giving you enough quickbars so spending real money becomes more attractive.

 

Where does it stop, exactly?

 

Who knows. The one thing I feel confident about is that they are and will continue to make substantial revenue from this. I think the jury is out when it comes to F2P business models centered around microtransaction of supplies rather than subscriptions. There are F2P games out there that I can not believe how are they still online. So, is my opinion that this business model is actually fairly profitable. To that end, it is hard to say how far they would go.

 

To me is not a question of how far but how. There a so many creative ways to entice costumers for cash purchases based on game cosmetics. So much room for customization for instance. I would not argue at all with more customization available only thought the cartel market, I would welcome it. What I would definitely not subscribe to is if/when a substantial and/or challenging core cage module can be significantly progressed through ( my definition of winning the game btw) via the cartel market. More so if it is even remotely apparent that game design is biased towards it ( I am looking at you D3 ).

 

I personally don't like the "in rails" space mini-game so I don't think this will affect me. But, from the standpoint of the however few players did space games with any level of progression in mind, yea, this is P2W and I would not go for it.

The term "pay 2 win" has no meaning to me as pertains to an MMO, since aside from PvP, there is no "winning". What do you win? All it is, is a choice on how to attain something, do you want to grind it out, or pay for it? Everyone has the same choices available. Space missions are basically a solo game within the game anyway, that has no effect on anyone else. Edited December 11, 2012 by Jinwe

I agree with your overall response, not sure that this is past the point of comfortability though. I assume these items were not on the PTS cartel shop so I find that a bit sneeky, however as a subscriber who likes space missions I, for sure, will be grinding not buying.

 

Oh, it gets better. The items also cost substantially less commendations on the test server.

 

Almost like they had some reason to make it even grindier to get them normally...

Edited December 11, 2012 by Guancyto

I don't think they could get me to do those space missions even if they just GAVE me the upgrades.

Oh, it gets better. The items also cost substantially less commendations on the test server.

 

Almost like they had some reason to make it even grindier to get them normally...

 

yes I knew that but I have no issue with the amount of comms required.

Please educate yourself...this game is FAR from PayToWin.....this statement just shows your clear lack of intelligence and knowledge to the game you are attempting to play.

There is no feeling of progress and achievement in grinding. The outcome is assured, it just takes longer.

Lol... you sure about that? Sorry, but only in PvP can you get rewarded with gear while contributing nothing. Good luck getting all the best gear for PvE if you are pretty inept.

yes I knew that but I have no issue with the amount of comms required.

 

You don't think it's kind of scummy to double or triple the length of the grind required while introducing a pay option for the same thing?

 

You're a better man than I.

The term "pay 2 win" has no meaning to me as pertains to an MMO, since aside from PvP, there is no "winning". What do you win? All it is, is a choice on how to attain something, do you want to grind it out, or pay for it? Everyone has the same choices available. Space missions are basically a solo game within the game anyway, that has no effect on anyone else.

 

Exactly.

 

If they start selling top tier PvP gear and make it usable at level 10, then a thread about P2W has some relevance in the context of P2W drama. For a single player PvE mini-game component of the game, it's just silly.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Andryah

I honestly do not get your argument. You are saying it is not P2W because, responding to whom you queoted, the rewards for doing space missions are minimal ( so no pay towards gearing your charecter)

 

BUT you say P2W = pay to get the best gear in game... well you are paying to get the best gear for the Space Missions, it is a minigame but it is part of the game and has its own progression.

 

Its in your own word: A mini-game. Its not your character, its your ship. Its not something you use to play with others, its a single player game, the difficulty is great even with those upgrades and the rewards are minimal. How exactly does this get anywhere close ot P2W? It sounds like most difficult way to gear a character. Its not worth it. That is why those packs are there, because the thing is so hardly worth it they even offer you some ship upgrades to make it worth your while.

EWH for 2000 poo coins?

"But it's not p2w, you can get it with comms as well ;_;"

Edited December 11, 2012 by AllisonBerryman

I don't have all the time in the world either (I have a job and a social life), but I'm not going to play a game where it's catering to the rich. I came into this game where there's a salary cap (i.e. your sub fee), but now it's becoming the baseball system. No thanks.

Very few gamers are actually "rich" unless your definition of rich is as broad and personally biased as is your definition of P2W.

 

1) ZT Online is not the end-all-be-all definition.

2) This is an MMO, there is not "beating this game". But using real life money to grant you an unfair advantage (instant reception of items that grant you upgrades in terms of game play) is Pay To Win.

1) Nor is your definition of the term

2) It is not unfair if everyone has an equal opportunity to acquire said items. Everyone does, either via paying cash (which is earned through time spent at a Real World job) or via in-game achievements (which is earned through time spent "working" in game).

 

BJ

The term "pay 2 win" has no meaning to me as pertains to an MMO, since aside from PvP, there is no "winning". What do you win? All it is, is a choice on how to attain something, do you want to grind it out, or pay for it? Everyone has the same choices available. Space missions are basically a solo game within the game anyway, that has no effect on anyone else.

You must be new to this thread and spent < 5 minutes actually reading any of the comments.

 

1) Stop focusing on the "win" part of it. In MMO's the game is never truly "beaten" so you don't actually "win". The hamster wheel keeps going. The problem is that there are many of us in here who have posted that a game that caters to people who are willing to fork over more cash and not have to work/grind/farm/play this game to get gear that isn't just cosmetic, but actually makes the gameplay easier beyond being a subscriber is a tackless move on BW's part. The fact that subs have to spend the time grinding or they can simply plop in their credit card number and buy these items is pretty unacceptable behavior to many of us who have posted in here.

2) The fact that these space missions reward you with things beyond space missions (credits, comms that can buy crafting material, and comms that directly buy endgame gear) rubs many of us the wrong way.

3) Most of us who aren't happy this seem to be saying that although we're not happy with this behavior, this isn't the straw that will break the camel's back (for us). Most of us are saying we don't like this, BW should stop it, and if they continue then many of us will likely unsub from the game.

 

Capiche?

This should have been some cool "Grade 3.5" or "4.5", like the other gear, leveling gear.

 

No endgame gear in the market, hello??

 

Basically they just "sold" subscribers the heroic space missions, or the gear to do them. Indirectly milking the subs...

 

Milk me, mooooooooo

2) It is not unfair if everyone has an equal opportunity to acquire said items. Everyone does, either via paying cash (which is earned through time spent at a Real World job) or via in-game achievements (which is earned through time spent "working" in game).

 

BJ

Lol... this game should favor what you do "outside of this game". If someone gives a lot of money to Bioware, do they deserve to have a max level, full BiS character, w/out playing the game for a minute? Can you obtain the exact same stuff? Yes. Do you think, for any second, that this is fair behavior?