Like father, like son, right?

 

But anyway, i don't see Luke as "real" jedi in movies coz he got so little training. And yes, Darth Vader was holding back, but even then Luke got somewhat advantage on Vader coz of series of strong suprise attacks. Goal was to turn Luke to Dark Side.

 

In final fight Luke goes into hiding, then Vader starts with taunts... how would you feel if someone is threatning you with family? His reaction was completlly natural...

 

And also, Luke was raised on farm as normal kid, full of emotions. Remember when Yoda said to Obi-Wan how Luke is too old for jedi training? If he started training at the age of 5-ish, like they normally do, he wouldn't be so full of emotions... i think

Someone missed the point of the entire scene.

If he started training at the age of 5-ish, like they normally do.

 

They 'normally' obtain the child as early as possible, five is still pushing it.

Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

 

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

 

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?

 

Sure he did, he eventually married and had a kid I believe.

Possibly, depending on how you mean 'beat'.

 

Return of the Jedi is quite possibly the most brilliant work by John Williams, especially the scene you're talking about. If you go back to the scene, and don't just watch it, but listen to the music, the answers are all there. Each element in that scene has a theme, and you can tell who is winning by the music played. As Luke is fighting Vader, Vader's music surges and Luke's fades.

 

When Luke finally gives in and launches out of hiding, the part where he 'beats' Vader, the bold, triumphant music that surges isn't Luke's theme at all - it's the Emperor's. If you listen to the musical cues, Luke is doing terribly in that whole encounter until he throws his saber away. Once he does that, the whole scene changes, and when Vader turns, it is Luke's music that surges. That's when he wins. Using his lightsaber only earned victory for the Emperor; the weapon he needed, and won the battle with, was compassion.

Here's how I see it. After tens of thousands of years of the Jedi Councils throughout Star Wars history preaching suppression of emotions, I have the feeling that Obi-Wan and Yoda finally had an /EpicFacepalm moment when they realized where it all went wrong. So instead of trying to get Luke to suppress them, they just said to trust them. Trust your feelings. Trust your emotions. If you're on the side of the angels, you're going to be ok. Luke made a helluva stupid move at the end.... or did he? Maybe he knew that Vader would intervene on his behalf. Maybe it was an educated gamble that paid off huge. However it went down in his head, we know the ending result. Luke lived. Pally took a dirt nap, and Vader got his redemption before he died..... at least until we saw how REALLY lame he was in the Prequels. Edited July 22, 2012 by Captain_Zone

You guys are all putting words in Luke's mouth. He never channeled hatred, he was simply a desperate man protecting his sister. A cat backed into a corner doesn't hate. Do you honestly think Lucas would have made Luke hate Vader at that pivotal point?

 

Its terribly unlikely, at most he was desperate and scared for his sister.

You guys are all putting words in Luke's mouth. He never channeled hatred, he was simply a desperate man protecting his sister. A cat backed into a corner doesn't hate. Do you honestly think Lucas would have made Luke hate Vader at that pivotal point?

 

Its terribly unlikely, at most he was desperate and scared for his sister.

 

Fear is also an emotion of the darkside...

Look...you're over analyzing. This whole story is imaginary. Of course these belief systems aren't perfectly defined and they are full of inconsistencies and self-contradictions..and as such, just as imperfect as any "real" belief systems we can observe in our world outside the Star Wars universe.

 

This dedication to the "the light side" and "good" and all the subordinate objectives such as "protecting the weak" and "uphold justice" is of course emotionally based too. All motivation originate from emotion. So of course Jedi have emotions.

 

The difference lies in how these emotions influence your action and your decision making. Was Obi-Wan angry about Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon? Sure he was! Was Yoda angry when he fought the Emperor in the Senate? Yes..the movies make no bones about that. However, the stories all tell the same story - only because they were able to keep a level head, they survived and prevailed in the end.

 

It was never intended for Jedi to be like Borg drones, only that they become masters of their own emotions instead of the other way around.

Regardless, he realised what he was doing when he disarmed his Father and in an act of loyalty to the Jedi, he threw away his only weapon.

 

Also, in reality the duel was not really a duel at all, because Vader was holding back and struggling with his emotions the entire time, Luke says as much later on that if Vader wanted to kill him, he'd be dead right now.

 

My thoughts exactly

You are forgetting an important part : Luke was not a Jedi yet at that point.

Huh? What?

 

Well, what happened earlier in that movie?

 

LUKE : "Then I am a Jedi?"

 

YODA : "Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will."

 

GASP!

 

That means that Luke was still in training, still in a learning phase. It is here he is reminded about the power of the dark side, and it is here that he casts that power away. Like every Jedi has done before him.

His fight in the Dark cave and his fight against Darth Vader, those where his failures as a Jedi, not 'successes' as a Sith.

If that last part where true then Sidious would be a Jedi every time he is not emotional on a subject.

The way I see it is that was what set the Skywalkers apart from those before them.

 

Annakin and Luke were never raised in a Jedi Temple from birth. Because of this they were always going to have some struggles that other Jedi wouldn't normally encounter. For Annakin, he was very much emotional but due to his later in life training and the Jedi constantly telling him it's not the Jedi way rather than helping him left Annakin struggling to cope with his emotions without the support network he needed. Annakin crumbled and gave in to the dark side. Luke, too, was emotional like his father but his experiences and learning of the truth of Vader being his father as well as what happened to Annakin made him realise that although there was strength to be gained from emotions he faced the dark side and didn't crumble like his father because Luke found strength in his father by not wanting to become like Vader. Luke faced the dark side and faced his emotions but through the realisation of the path his father took he didn't want to follow that path and found the strength to confront the dark side without giving in to it. Luke found strength in his emotions and instead of denying them he managed to embrace his emotions without giving in to the dark side.

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of people here not getting it. So I'll explain.

 

Luke very nearly did give into the Dark Side. That was the point of the entire scene. It was Luke's struggle to redeem his Father and not fall himself. He gave into his emotions, realised what he was doing and stopped.

Technically, everything Luke did was in defense. He was defending the fleet and his friends from the Emperor who was wielding the Death Star as a weapon. He was protecting Leia from the corruption of the Dark Side when he realized that Vader would come for her if he didn't. Both times, Luke didn't strike out until someone pulled his friends into it. At that point, it was not longer about killing a potential threat to himself, it was about removing a clear and present danger to his friends.

You are forgetting an important part : Luke was not a Jedi yet at that point.

 

^ Exactly

 

 

Technically, everything Luke did was in defense. He was defending the fleet and his friends from the Emperor who was wielding the Death Star as a weapon. He was protecting Leia from the corruption of the Dark Side when he realized that Vader would come for her if he didn't. Both times, Luke didn't strike out until someone pulled his friends into it. At that point, it was not longer about killing a potential threat to himself, it was about removing a clear and present danger to his friends.

 

This is completely invalid. Let me remind you Anakin killed Mace Windu in defense of Palpatine, his friend.

 

Luke's passion for his friends was his weakness and path to the darkside. When removing vader's hand, he sees the FAILURE AT THE CAVE ON DEGOBAH (most important scene ever). Then it all makes sense to him and this realization completes his training as a Jedi Knight. Duh.

 

Remember also, Vader never intended to kill Luke. He wanted to rule the galaxy with him, which is why he only took his arm. Vader's passion was to be with his son, even more after his transformation into a Jedi and with Luke's life on the line. Enough to turn him back from the Dark Side

Edited July 18, 2012 by MattFrontino

which is why he only took his arm.

 

I think that in itself was an accident, I think Vader sort of had an automatic reflex, because Luke had just struck Vader in his shoulder.

Much of the flaws that Luke had were shown in EP 5 and they come through again in ep 6. The reason Yoda said he that he wasn't a Jedi till he faced Vader did not mean he had to defeat Vader or the Emperor. Yoda meant that Luke had to face Vader and not fall to the darkside.

 

If you have never read Return of the Jedi book I highly recommend you do so. The funny thing about the final battle between Luke, Vader and Emperor is that it is more of an internal battle then an external battle. Emperor was loosing his grasp on Vader and he was afraid of Vader. Vader was question himself and whether he could go back to who he once was or was he doomed forever to be the monster he had become. Luke was facing his own inner demons, the very flaws that Yoda showed and told him about in Ep 5.

 

Each time Emperor use Luke own demons and inner struggles against him Luke realize his mistake and takes a different course of action. When he finally attacked Vader after his goading him about turn his sister to the darkside Luke did give in to his anger and hate. However as he stood over Vader and he was being goaded by emperor to kill Vader and take his place he realize that his battle was not with them. The only way he could over come evil his not to given to it. He had to first admit to himself that he was no better then they were. Then he was able to realize that only by not accepting it by letting all his anger, hate go could he truly defeat evil.

 

The funny part of it was that Luke really thought that Yoda was telling him only by defeating Vader would he be a Jedi. What Yoda really meant was only by facing Vader win or loose and not going to the Darkside a Jedi would he be.

 

The fight is an internal fight not an external one. Most fans believe Empire to be the Dark of the original films and I disagree completely. I think it is more tragic then it was dark. If you're father is a killer that sucks it's tragic and yes dark to some degree. However to look in you're self and see the darkness with in you're self, to see all the flaws and bad things that are in you, that you have done or could do and face it and over come it or fall prey to it is probably the darkest thing you can ever do. Think about it as hard as it is for a family to face there loved one who is on drugs it's a thousand times harder for the person on drugs to looking inside themselves and admit they have a problem and then to go through hell to over come it. That my friend is when you really face true darkness.

Expect at the end he really didn't resist the lure of the dark side. Without him trying to strike the Emperor down his Father never would have dueled him. Without him channeling hatred of His Father taking his sister and turning her to the dark side. He never would have unleashed those fury of attacks.

 

I understand the ending of him jumping around and cheering and trying to save his Father. Yet when it counted he used his emotions. As a full Knight, he channeled that. Maybe at the end he stopped but short term he did what Sith did and used his emotions to help him win.

 

How does that make him better then a Sith, expect he didn't keep on using his emotions?

 

They trained him to resist the normal "Lure" of the Dark Side...

 

Sidious wasn't a normal Lure, just by being in his presence many Jedi had felt his urge to the Dark Side(This is post-Order 66). Galen Marek was almost engulfed into Darkness.

You really don't seem to be listening to what the others are telling you, but I'll take a stab:

 

Yes, he gave in and used the Force to get his lightsaber and strike down the Emperor. His friends were dying, the Rebel Alliance was being crushed and hope was being extinguished before his very eyes. His desperation caused him to give in. At that moment Vader's blade blocked him and he withdrew. He fought long enough to break away and hide to avoid the fight. He resisted the lure of the dark side.

 

Then Vader goads him again, suggesting that Luke's sister will join them. At that point yes, he used the dark side of the Force in the final battle with Vader. He yells "Never!" and attacks Vader ferociously. He beats him. He takes Vader's hand. And then he SEES Vader's severed wrist. The wires and the machinery. He looks at his own hand and sees how much like his father he already is. How his anger has just brought him to THIS POINT. How his impatience in the past has already cost him. And the Emperor is laughing and telling him to kill his father and take his place at the Emperor's side.

 

And at this point, he pulls away from the dark side and does what his father couldn't do before him. He renounces that darkness, throws away his own lightsaber, commits to the light side of the force and accepts his own fate, even if it means he dies.

 

He is a Jedi. Like his father before him. But better.

 

I gotta say, that scene in the movie, as well as the way you just described that, always gives me goosebumps. It is really quite interesting the symbolism that is presented in that short time frame. And I think that through your explanation you hit the nail right on the head.