if you think jedi/sith are over the top super freaks, then you really just aren't getting it. some choice words i hope help with this,

sci-fi

fiction

fantasy

imagination

so jedi/sith can do things that are over the top. that is kinda the point. if i want real i'll go read something else. star wars does exactly what its sposed to do. if you don't like it your reading the wrong kinda a thing.

if you think jedi/sith are over the top super freaks, then you really just aren't getting it. some choice words i hope help with this,

 

sci-fi

fiction

fantasy

imagination

 

so jedi/sith can do things that are over the top. that is kinda the point. if i want real i'll go read something else. star wars does exactly what its sposed to do. if you don't like it your reading the wrong kinda a thing.

I don't think you get my meaning.. We all know it's sci-fi.. but you watch the movies, then read the books. After that if you think they are both on the same level then you are crazy,the EU is a tad over the top. Maybe thats why GL doesnt think about the EU,maybe because he doesnt think they really "get it". In Ep. 3 when Yoda faces Sidious and Sidious says "Now you will experience the full power of the dark side".. what did he do next? open some vortex to happy town?? no.. he shot Yoda with lightning. GL gave them an inch so they can write these stories,and they took a mile. It's really just that simple,and to be honest, anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.

Do I like any of the EU? Yes I do. I like Sadow,Kun,Bane,Quinlen Voss and some others, but that doesnt mean they sometimes don't do things that are just wrong and have no place. Star Wars is sci-fi, but I feel some guid lines had been set and the EU writers just ignor them.

Eh living for thousands of years isn't really anything spectacular, pulling a moon out of orbit is rather child's play compared to what comic book heroes can do. As for Galen(Starkiller) his over the top stuff was due to gameplay mechanics due to make the game more fun, the novel which is actual canon makes his force powers much more tame.

Yeah completely disagree here.

Living for thousands of years isn't anything spectacular? Can you explain please because I'm rather lost as to how that isn't spectacular.....

And there are many many ways to make a game rich with story and life without having to overload on CGI. The Force Unleashed has a relatively decent story but overall it was just a CGI based game, "look at this and look how great and awesome that looked". I found that half of the things in that game could of been avoided and maybe more time spent on a story.

Relate to Batman?....Ya right....Batman has been played and put on such a platform that he could beat anyone with preperation. That is no way relate able, because he never fails, everything always works 100% of the time for him.

You know...except when Bane sneaks in to the Batcave and LITERALLY BREAKS HIS BACK ON A TWO PAGE SPREAD! That put him out of the game for a while and left him a paraplegic for a tick.

You know...except when Bane sneaks in to the Batcave and LITERALLY BREAKS HIS BACK ON A TWO PAGE SPREAD! That put him out of the game for a while and left him a paraplegic for a tick.

Kinda.

That only worked because Bane had released all of the inmates at Arkham and Batman was exhausted by fighting them. Also that didn't happen in the Batcave. Also it didn't stick for long, Batman was back in action after he got his back magically healed within 6 months (Of course Bruce apparently knew about a magical healer who could fix severed spines but never thought to mention it to poor Babs... The jerk.) and defeated Bane in a one on one conflict.

Superman on the other hand was killed by Doomsday and was dead for a full 18 months. (Which is a darn long time.)

Bad writing exists everywhere. Comic books nor novels are exceptions. Star Wars actually has only a small number of bad writers.

Karen Traviss and to a lesser extend Aaron Allston.

Kinda.

 

That only worked because Bane had released all of the inmates at Arkham and Batman was exhausted by fighting them. Also that didn't happen in the Batcave. Also it didn't stick for long, Batman was back in action after he got his back magically healed within 6 months (Of course Bruce apparently knew about a magical healer who could fix severed spines but never thought to mention it to poor Babs... The jerk.) and defeated Bane in a one on one conflict.

 

Superman on the other hand was killed by Doomsday and was dead for a full 18 months. (Which is a darn long time.)

 

Bad writing exists everywhere. Comic books nor novels are exceptions. Star Wars actually has only a small number of bad writers.

 

Karen Traviss and to a lesser extend Aaron Allston.

Ummm... as far as Superman goes, he never actually "died". He was placed in a Kryptonian regeneration chamber while his body healed. And as far as Comics time goes, he was only "dead" for about 6 months. Doomsday stayed "dead" only slightly longer before waking up as he was about to be launched into space chained to an asteroid. lol (yes, I still have the "Death of Superman" first edition print with the layout of Lois holding his broken and bleeding body. I cheered, since I'm not a big Superman fan.)

But seriously, it was pretty epic how he "died".

Too bad Hal Jordan beat him as far as Best Death Scene goes. (Ultimate redemption in The Final Night)

I feel the need to bring up a quote of Lucas himself here, albeit delivered badly, since it's a while since I heard him say it - "in the original trilogy we saw what was left of the Jedi and the force-users - an old jedi fighting an old Vader, a young boy fighting an old man, there are no proper Jedi in this time, which is why in Menace we wanted to explore..."

That's about as relevant as that paragraph was, and I have the same qualms with the prequel trilogy that all the rest of the true-blooded Star Wars fans do, but I do love this point that George brought up, and it's very right. The awe about watching Luke harness the Force was partially, I believe, that we were only seeing the tip of the ice-berg. Even when I was little, things that Vader and Obi-Wan and Yoda said gave me that impression - that there was so, so much more outside what Luke was capable of at that time, most of it lost to the age before and needing to be reclaimed in the future.That was what excited me and sparked my imagination and fuled my pretend-games the most, the face that the concept of the Force, and what the Jedi used to be, could be expanded on so greatly.

Most of the time, I feel that the EU expanded on it in the most loving way possible. I don't mean to use a religious comparison, but I fele it's quite relevant if you look at it this way: If George is 'god' of the SW universe, then the writers of the EU wrote the bible. There are bits we don't agree with and some bits we have, but most of it takes the original trilogy like a seed and nurtures it into a bootiful flower. There, two analogies in one paragraph.

I do get what you mean with some bad plots and over-powered characters, in some cases. I have a feeling you're not a fan of Starkiller, either (although I could argue for many, many pages on why he's an exception). One of my main thoughts about Nihilus was 'well, why hasn't he gobbled up the entire Force yet if he's that frightfully unstoppable?' So don't worry, I do understand where you are coming from, it does seem like there is a lot of unnecessary superhero heroics flying around here and there, and a lot of people falling to the Dark Side, considered a massive and rare taboo in the younger days of Star Wars, then waddling back over to the Light with their tales between their legs.

...Vergere was the Mary Sue of that one.

Every time you use that term wrong, a Fan Fic gets its wings.

Star Wars actually has only a small number of bad writers..

Denning, Traviss, Davids and Davids, Golden, McIntyre, Anderson, Williams, Kube-McDowell, Allen, Tyers, Rusch, Whitney-Robinson, et all. Honestly, it'd be faster to name writers of quality than to list all those generally lacking.

Every time you use that term wrong, a Fan Fic gets its wings.

She meets most of the criteria.

Run her through any of the litmus tests. She fails. Hard.

1. One of a kind alien race?

Sure. She was a Fosh. A race nobody had ever heard of. In fact the only place the race ever appeared was in NJO.

2. Special super powers?

Yup. She has these too. Not only can she use the Force but she has, for lack of a better term, magical tears.

3. Outshining already established characters in their respective fields?

Yup. Our established Mon-Calamari Jedi Healer can't cure Mara Jade after apparently a very long period of study... This is the same Healer who once removed a targeted bio attack on Mon Mothma by the way... But Vergere can do it in a matter of minutes.

4. Tragic back story?

Oh yeah.

5. Tragic back story that doesn't actually hinder her in any way, shape, or form, in the course of the story?

Check. Vergere manages to retain her connection to the Force, not fall to the Dark Side (later revealed not to be true), and live with torture for years (as she manages to convince the Vong to keep her around for no particular reason) and suffers no forms of PTSD after the event.

6. Knows more than anyone in established continuity about almost everything?

Oh check here as well. She can strip people of the Force seemingly at will and with little effort. She knows more about the Force than Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. She is always right and every character eventually comes to agree with her. She knows about the Vong. She knows secrets of the Force that don't make any sense for her to know considering no other canonical Jedi Master believed as she did and the teaching she preached obviously were not part of traditional Jedi training.

7. She expresses views and opinions about things that are parallel to her creator?

Oh yes. Allston admitted this. He also said that when he wrote Vergere that he believed her words were completely true. He has expressed, on more than one occasion, a dislike for the more traditional understanding and interpretation of the Force.

8. Is never reprimanded when she does something that any other character would have been reprimanded for.

I am referring to her torture of Jacen Solo. If that had been done by anyone else there would have been massive backlash. That person would have been slapped down so harshly by one of the established characters that they would have made an impact crater. Nobody lays a hand on her, in fact, they end up thanking her. Anyone who disagrees with her eventually comes around to her way of thinking as well. She was also a spy for the Vong as well... Something she hides from Luke and the others even though she plans on betraying the Vong...

I'm sorry... Vergere can easily be considered a Mary Sue. She was, in my opinion, one of the worst Star Wars characters ever written and I think the best improvement they could have made they did when they made her a Sith.

She meets most of the criteria.

 

Run her through any of the litmus tests. She fails. Hard.

 

1. One of a kind alien race?

Sure. She was a Fosh. A race nobody had ever heard of. In fact the only place the race ever appeared was in NJO.

 

2. Special super powers?

Yup. She has these too. Not only can she use the Force but she has, for lack of a better term, magical tears.

 

3. Outshining already established characters in their respective fields?

Yup. Our established Mon-Calamari Jedi Healer can't cure Mara Jade after apparently a very long period of study... This is the same Healer who once removed a targeted bio attack on Mon Mothma by the way... But Vergere can do it in a matter of minutes.

 

4. Tragic back story?

Oh yeah.

 

5. Tragic back story that doesn't actually hinder her in any way, shape, or form, in the course of the story?

Check. Vergere manages to retain her connection to the Force, not fall to the Dark Side (later revealed not to be true), and live with torture for years (as she manages to convince the Vong to keep her around for no particular reason) and suffers no forms of PTSD after the event.

 

6. Knows more than anyone in established continuity about almost everything?

Oh check here as well. She can strip people of the Force seemingly at will and with little effort. She knows more about the Force than Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. She is always right and every character eventually comes to agree with her. She knows about the Vong. She knows secrets of the Force that don't make any sense for her to know considering no other canonical Jedi Master believed as she did and the teaching she preached obviously were not part of traditional Jedi training.

 

7. She expresses views and opinions about things that are parallel to her creator?

Oh yes. Allston admitted this. He also said that when he wrote Vergere that he believed her words were completely true. He has expressed, on more than one occasion, a dislike for the more traditional understanding and interpretation of the Force.

 

8. Is never reprimanded when she does something that any other character would have been reprimanded for.

I am referring to her torture of Jacen Solo. If that had been done by anyone else there would have been massive backlash. That person would have been slapped down so harshly by one of the established characters that they would have made an impact crater. Nobody lays a hand on her, in fact, they end up thanking her. Anyone who disagrees with her eventually comes around to her way of thinking as well. She was also a spy for the Vong as well... Something she hides from Luke and the others even though she plans on betraying the Vong...

 

I'm sorry... Vergere can easily be considered a Mary Sue. She was, in my opinion, one of the worst Star Wars characters ever written and I think the best improvement they could have made they did when they made her a Sith.

O_o who the freaking heck is this character and what do I need to read to see her epic Sue-fail?

Zaxuku, I wouldn't take Walsh at his word on this matter. Or any particular matter ever. Ignoring that the notion of a standardized test of a concept says nothing for the execution of concept and how it might fit within the lore, he's not particularly correct in much of what he's saying.

She is, indeed, reprimanded for her actions and held in particular contempt by Luke. Her philosophy is not embraced by everyone, despite his insistence and the downright moronic future insistent of Troy Denning (who, for the record, cannot correctly identify her philosophy). Indeed, Jacen's development does not even vindicate her philosophy but constitutes the creation of one which is subtly but crucially different than her's and constitutes a pretty large case in which she is shown to not be completely correct. She doesn't even appear in a book written by Allston. At least not in a speaking role ever. That distinction belongs to Matt Stover, Greg Keyes, Walter Jon Williams, Troy Denning, James Luceno, and John Ostrander. So, Walsh can't even get that part correct. You know, the literal, factual stuff that isn't necessarily based in subjectivity. Yeah, he doesn't even manage to get that stuff right.

He's actually wrong all over the place (or at the bare minimum, omitting crucial details, which is a common practice for him). For instance, Cilghal learns some of Vergere's techniques...therefore they are not unique. This is just one of another places in which he is false but I could continue. The important thing to note is that not only is he just flat out using the term incorrectly, he's bending over so hard to fit her through his supposed criteria that I would not be shocked to learn that he now needs a wheelchair from the spinal damage.

Besides, this criticism also comes from a man whose own writings included a chapter in which his authorial avatar killed the fictional representation of someone he's expressed unsettling, violent sentiments about before on these forums as well as more than one occasion where they got to kill with impunity. Indeed, these particular examples were so egregious that they earned considerable comment by peers and readers. Comments about Mary Sues tend to wane heavily if you've read what constitutes a hero for the good Professor. Or, even, what constitutes a Jedi.

Yeah completely disagree here.

 

Living for thousands of years isn't anything spectacular? Can you explain please because I'm rather lost as to how that isn't spectacular.....

 

And there are many many ways to make a game rich with story and life without having to overload on CGI. The Force Unleashed has a relatively decent story but overall it was just a CGI based game, "look at this and look how great and awesome that looked". I found that half of the things in that game could of been avoided and maybe more time spent on a story.

Compared to some comic book characters who have lived since forever? Some of them being actual gods, living for a couple thousand years isn't all that great. (Which whose idea was it to take gods and make them superheroes? I feel that always downgraded the status of them.)

O_o who the freaking heck is this character and what do I need to read to see her epic Sue-fail?

Some Vergere fans try to act like those things I mentioned didn't happen. A common one being that people learned Vergere's techniques which don't make them unique.

The problem is Vergere isn't a dedicated healer. Cilghal was a dedicated healer. Vergere coming in out of nowhere and basically overshadowing her was bad writing. As to possible claims that she was reprimanded... She wasn't. Luke even endorsed her philosophy in NJO. It wasn't until the Dark Nest Trilogy that Denning fixed that mess.

If anyone else had done what she did they would have likely ended up dead at the end of Luke Skywalker's lightsaber or at the very least begging the Jedi for forgiveness and admitting that they were wrong. Vergere never did. She was a horrible character, badly written, and a text book Mary Sue. The only thing that they did that even remotely redeemed her was by making her a Sith which explains a lot of her deceptive ways, snide undermining comments, and cold demeanor.

Because I would like to continue discussing the topic's actual purpose:

Star Wars has never particularly benefited from an overabundance of subtlety, except perhaps in terms of philosophical content and even that is relatively rare within its catalog of work. This is largely because the IP finds the majority of its roots in the trite, pulp science fiction and adventure film serials of the 1950s and even earlier. Star Wars has never been subtle and by and large has never been host to writers who wield immensely technical or narrative craftsmanship. Although, admittedly, there are a handful of true exceptions to this.

However, by and large, it might be said that Star Wars retains a lot of it staying power because of this. The honest embracing of its pulp nature shouldn't necessarily be to its detriment (although it sometimes can lead to certain problems). Often, though, acknowledging the straight out blemishes allows the underlying themes the IP expresses to seem, if possible, more compelling at times. Or at least, more sincere.

In regards to the discussion about Vergere, I would merely like to add that...

Luke even endorsed her philosophy in NJO.

This never happens.

Star Wars is not a setting for deep philosophy. It was intended to be campy pulp action in the style of the old movie serials. It is only "artists" (and I use the term loosely here) who insist that it has to be darkened up, made more ambiguous, and who try to make it more thought provoking by adding shades of gray everywhere. The problem with doing that, of course, is that it isn't supposed to be dark, ambiguous, and thought provoking.

It is like... Getting spicy chicken when you ordered original recipe. It isn't a bad thing, it can taste good, but it isn't what you ordered and it doesn't taste like it is supposed to.

It is a tale of high adventure. Space wizards and space cowboys.

The Light Side is good the Dark Side is bad. The gray areas are superficial at best and even when the villains win there is always an undertone of hope. That is what Star Wars is supposed to be.

NJO tried to change that and, in my opinion, wounded the IP greatly. The crap with Vergere was unforgivable. The "Anyone can die!" theme of the NJO was out of place.

Basically... The entire Star Wars: New Jedi Order series was out of place. It just didn't feel like Star Wars. It was a radical departure from the themes of the universe.

Was it good? On its own? Possibly. I wouldn't have disliked it much if it wasn't Star Wars. It, however, was terrible for a Star Wars series.

I am not alone, or even close to alone, in my views on the NJO. It was the most controversial Star Wars series. A lot of Star Wars fans hated it. So much so that much of the last three series worked to retcon events and interpretations presented to us in the NJO books.

It didn't help either that the writers couldn't keep the storylines coherent and kept dropping sub plots left and right.

 

Star Wars is not a setting for deep philosophy. It was intended to be campy pulp action in the style of the old movie serials. It is only "artists" (and I use the term loosely here) who insist that it has to be darkened up, made more ambiguous, and who try to make it more thought provoking by adding shades of gray everywhere. The problem with doing that, of course, is that it isn't supposed to be dark, ambiguous, and thought provoking.

 

It is like... Getting spicy chicken when you ordered original recipe. It isn't a bad thing, it can taste good, but it isn't what you ordered and it doesn't taste like it is supposed to.

 

It is a tale of high adventure. Space wizards and space cowboys.

 

The Light Side is good the Dark Side is bad. The gray areas are superficial at best and even when the villains win there is always an undertone of hope. That is what Star Wars is supposed to be.

 

NJO tried to change that and, in my opinion, wounded the IP greatly. The crap with Vergere was unforgivable. The "Anyone can die!" theme of the NJO was out of place.

 

Basically... The entire Star Wars: New Jedi Order series was out of place. It just didn't feel like Star Wars. It was a radical departure from the themes of the universe.

 

Was it good? On its own? Possibly. I wouldn't have disliked it much if it wasn't Star Wars. It, however, was terrible for a Star Wars series.

 

I am not alone, or even close to alone, in my views on the NJO. It was the most controversial Star Wars series. A lot of Star Wars fans hated it. So much so that much of the last three series worked to retcon events and interpretations presented to us in the NJO books.

 

It didn't help either that the writers couldn't keep the storylines coherent and kept dropping sub plots left and right.

Quite the sophisticated one. Your words have me sided with you.

Quite the sophisticated one. Your words have me sided with you.

His superpower is words.

Walsh is, if nothing else, eloquent. Largely though, I hope you're more swayed by his comments about the New Jedi Order than, say, accusations of unfalsifiable conspiracy. Because, and this might shock him for me to say so, I readily admit that the NJO was a departure from the norm and not perfect. Whether or not you find it a successful experiment rests, somewhat, in what you feel the IP should strive for. And upon this, there tends to be a split among fans.

There's nothing particularly wrong in stressing the setting's duality. I understand why it has such appeal. It's actually brought some of its best stories. However, sometimes it also has the issue of providing remarkably....disconcerting moral notions that seem counter to the mythos' core. "Forgiveness is for those who deserve it." being a stellar example of the degeneration of Luke's character in modern writings. The largely unattempted redemption of Jacen's Solo alongside the Denning's wholesale violence. The very unfortunate political and moral assertions of the Jedi Order in FOTJ.

Compare this stress on stark dichotomies and "for or against" mindsets to, say, even something like TOTJ. Anderson's a pretty lackluster writer and TOTJ was, by and large, some of the pulpiest pulp this IP has ever found, yet even for all of its cheese and simplicity, it retained a larger thematic connection to the films than any of the Del Rey book series within the last 5-6 years (with particular stress on Fate of the Jedi). For what can be said about the superficial grimness of NJO's setting, thematically it was startlingly idealistic and hopeful. Major series that have followed it have generally abandoned idealism for a cold, ruthless pragmatism from everyone. Especially our heroes. Which is funny because the Order's tragic flaw in the prequels was rigidity. The odd assertions of Apocalypse that cosmic balance essentially relies on eternal war between Jedi and Sith might be the most crystallized and pure distillation of this. It doesn't help either that the writers can't keep the storylines coherent and kept dropping sub plots left and right. (Wait..)

This is an example of what I meant before in saying that embracing the IP's pulp nature can sometimes make the stories seem more sincere. As the modern age of Star Wars has set in, we've retained a lot of the loose trapping of pulp with none of the previous sincerity. With the Dark Horse productions being just about the last bastion.

Compared to some comic book characters who have lived since forever? Some of them being actual gods, living for a couple thousand years isn't all that great. (Which whose idea was it to take gods and make them superheroes? I feel that always downgraded the status of them.)

Ok so give me examples, keeping in context of Star Wars of course, of living for a couple thousand years because this information has seemed to have passed me.

And I never said anything wrong with becoming something spectacular beyond death, that is the way of the force for many but I do not define them as Gods. More like strong presences in the force, now that I have no problem but what you're saying here is thousands of years of life before death. So who are you talking about?

Because I would like to continue discussing the topic's actual purpose:

 

Star Wars has never particularly benefited from an overabundance of subtlety, except perhaps in terms of philosophical content and even that is relatively rare within its catalog of work. This is largely because the IP finds the majority of its roots in the trite, pulp science fiction and adventure film serials of the 1950s and even earlier. Star Wars has never been subtle and by and large has never been host to writers who wield immensely technical or narrative craftsmanship. Although, admittedly, there are a handful of true exceptions to this.

 

However, by and large, it might be said that Star Wars retains a lot of it staying power because of this. The honest embracing of its pulp nature shouldn't necessarily be to its detriment (although it sometimes can lead to certain problems). Often, though, acknowledging the straight out blemishes allows the underlying themes the IP expresses to seem, if possible, more compelling at times. Or at least, more sincere.

 

In regards to the discussion about Vergere, I would merely like to add that...

 

 

 

This never happens.

While I do agree with Walsh on some things, he is wrong on others. His point of view is heavily biased towards the Jedi. Imo, he still needs to work on his people skills a bit.

Ok so give me examples, keeping in context of Star Wars of course, of living for a couple thousand years because this information has seemed to have passed me.

 

And I never said anything wrong with becoming something spectacular beyond death, that is the way of the force for many but I do not define them as Gods. More like strong presences in the force, now that I have no problem but what you're saying here is thousands of years of life before death. So who are you talking about?

Cad Bane and Tenebrae/Vitiate/Sith Emperor come to mind right off the top of my head.

Tenebrae/Vitiate/Sith Emperor come to mind right off the top of my head.

^Those guys, theres more I am sure but can't name them off the top of my head.

Cad Bane

Pardon? He isn't over a thousand years old.

Pardon? He isn't over a thousand years old.

I'll let Wolf handle this one, since he's more of a Cad Bane fan than I am.

I'll let Wolf handle this one, since he's more of a Cad Bane fan than I am.

Huh? Lol where'd you hear this?