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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?


Dovahbrah

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What on earth is wrong with you guys? Do you even play PVP? How can you say it would screw over 10 other classes if we were immune to interrupts? Hello snipers? Have you ever heard of the mechanic called cover? How about Entrench? Are you completely ignorant to any other class but your own?

 

I hate to break it to you but our burst dps is NOT good. It's pretty bad actually. And I'm 95 valor and have been BIS for months so I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about. Assasin, MArauder, PT, Operative - every single one has significantly better burst dps, and if you don't think burst dps is important in a PVP environment you just are not a very good PVPer at all.

 

Guess which one of those things bursts as much as a merc at 30m? That's right, none of them (and if you had your leap immunity, the marauders won't burst at any range because they can't use any attack against a merc).

 

Guess which ranged spec period bursts for more than a merc does? Snipers...and that's it. And Snipers can't move. So what you want is for a pve spec to be a mobile, uninterruptible class that the enemy cannot close ground on and you want it to burst as much from 30 m as a concealment op does at 4m.

 

You're not asking for balance, you're asking for an iwin button. Which is why developers do not read these forums. Legit balance issues get lost in a sea of people seeking some unnecessary advantage.

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Guess which one of those things bursts as much as a merc at 30m? That's right, none of them (and if you had your leap immunity, the marauders won't burst at any range because they can't use any attack against a merc).

 

Guess which ranged spec period bursts for more than a merc does? Snipers...and that's it. And Snipers can't move. So what you want is for a pve spec to be a mobile, uninterruptible class that the enemy cannot close ground on and you want it to burst as much from 30 m as a concealment op does at 4m.

 

You're not asking for balance, you're asking for an iwin button. Which is why developers do not read these forums. Legit balance issues get lost in a sea of people seeking some unnecessary advantage.

 

Oh no no no no no you didn't just bring "30m" into this! Don't ruin your credibility so early man. That's laughable and not even worth explaining. If you don't already understand the problem then get out and pvp a little more.

 

 

No sorry. I-win button is called 6k AE SMASH! Merc have pretty sub-par burst (whish is just one of their many problems which need fixing). Zach is right. As long as bioware acts like smash specs are ok, then they are the standard. And if someone can leap into a pack of guys and autocrit for multiple targets for 6k every 11 seconds when I have trouble getting 5k on a single target we have a problem.

Edited by Phasersablaze
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Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes.

 

Hugging corners as a commando/mercenary simply does not work, even against a single melee enemy; you can't deal significant damage while running around pillars (maybe for a short time when specialized in Assault Specialist/Pyrotech, but only for 3 attacks, maybe 4 if you immediately cancel Full Auto/Unload), but melee classes can, and healing is absurdly ineffective when not specialized as a healer due to the activation times, pushback, resource costs, and low healing done relative to damage taken.

 

If an enemy applies a snare or root (which any decent player will do), it becomes impossible to evade melee enemies in this manner. Furthermore, melee classes can keep us slowed indefinitely due to the lack of downtime on their snares, and the fact that most melee classes in the game use force based slows and roots makes the situation even worse, as we cannot cleanse force based effects.

 

The 30% snare available to Assault Specialist/Pyrotech specialized commandos/mercenaries that has a 16% chance to be applied with ranged damage is a woefully inadequate counter to enemy slows, and the 4 second root attached to Stockstrike/Rocket Punch when specialized in Gunnery/Arsenal is even worse because we need to be within melee range to apply it; If we're slowed when we apply the root, it is entirely useless, as we will not be able to gain any significant amount of distance.

 

Also, why are commandos and mercenaries expected to hug corners when gunslingers and snipers are not? The former possess no advantage over the latter. It would be understandable for us to lack the defenses of gunslingers and snipers when specialized as healers, but there is no reason for commandos and mercenaries - and sages and sorcerers, for that matter - to lack comparable defenses in their damage-centric skill trees. (Please note that I used the word "comparable"; I would like to see different playstyles for different classes.)

 

I could go on, but I'll conclude here and say that while I am pleased to see that the PvP design team is looking into the troubles with commandos and mercenaries, it bothers me that they still do not seem to understand how the classes function in high level PvP.

Edited by Chaoskyx
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As a predominate Commando/Merc player (Commando Heals and Merc Arsenal), I'ne noticed quite a few things.

 

In regards to Arsenal, the problem seems to be mobility. All of the main abilities are casts which are a root on myself in of itself. I understand that when played hugging a wall, a Merc can put out a lot of DPS, but it's so rare that we are in that situation...Once a Mara/Sent leaps, interrupts, and roots us, it's game over...sure we can prolong the inevitable but it's a tough task asking to beat them out 1v1.

 

Even for my Commando healer I have better survivability and mobility. Most of the time I'm focused by at least 2 players on the opposing team. I've got Bacta Infusion (can be used as an on-the-run heal), kolto bomb, and even the trauma probe serves as a damage mitigation. Tease them with a MP (will be interrupted) and then use AMP. Stay on the run, toss shield when in LOS of the ranged dps, rinse and repeat. Now Commando Healers have plenty of problems themselves (don't get me started about the hammer shot being a complete waste in PvP - "Hey everyone!! I'm over here! Come get the healer!") but with Merc Arsenal, there's no such mobility. Unload has a cast, Power shot has a cast, tracer missile has a cast, DfA is ineffective when playing a decent group, rocket punch doesn't even seem to root them anymore...the knockback version was better! I'm forced to stay in close against melee speced opponents! And even if I do get some distance from them, their Force Leap has just cooled off..

 

I don't usually comment on the forums (hence this being my first comment!) but i was getting really frustrated last night PvPing with that Merc because the other classes know that Arsenal is dependent on casts... I read a comment about Merc's being a Rooted Turret and couldn't agree more.

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Well, at least they did notice this problem. But he's overestimating how effective corner hugging is. If a single enemy applies a snare or root, corner hugging does bupkiss for a merc.

 

the comedy of corner hugging is that all melee have instant abils. and almost every merc/commando abil is a cast. so it's impossible to kite a melee without a reliable root and snare. corner hugging only works against...other commandos (ok, all ranged). and starting a root from melee range (the new stockstrike) is pathetic. reducing the range of cryo grenade ON COMMANDOS was even worse. they actually managed to nerf the escape-ability of the class with the worst escape-ability in the game.

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What you're basically saying is "don't play Gunnery/Arsenal in PvP". Which is stupid. Every spec should have something to offer in PvP as the tree's description says "Damage", not "PvE"

Why is that stupid? you don't have to roll a new toon to play both environs with the same toon. one AC remains viable in both PvP and PvE. why is it stupid? because you're in love with your PvE-centric spec? dude, PvE is PvEasy. it just is. and BW has to make PvEasy specs so that introductory players (or casuals, w/e) will have an option. they'd have to completely redesign PvP to make tracer spamming competitive. that would break every other class. the spec sucks in pvp. deal with it. there are (or should be) other (more mobile) options.

Edited by foxmob
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Why is that stupid? you don't have to roll a new toon to play both environs with the same toon. one AC remains viable in both PvP and PvE. why is it stupid? because you're in love with your PvE-centric spec? dude, PvE is PvEasy. it just is. and BW has to make PvEasy specs so that introductory players (or casuals, w/e) will have an option.

 

If Marauders/Sent can have all 3 of their trees viable in PvP, then the other ACs should have all of their trees viable as well.

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If Marauders/Sent can have all 3 of their trees viable in PvP, then the other ACs should have all of their trees viable as well.

 

lol - and that was a stupid thing for BW to do in the first place. isn't it universally agreed that the buff to focus was uncalled for? now name one other AC that has 3 excellent pvp specs. your exception proves the rule.

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lol - and that was a stupid thing for BW to do in the first place. isn't it universally agreed that the buff to focus was uncalled for? now name one other AC that has 3 excellent pvp specs. your exception proves the rule.

 

Focus was still viable before the buff, the buff just made it moron-proof. The spec is almost as easy as pyro PT now.

 

All I'm saying is, if one class can have 3 viable trees, then either BW needs to nerf the one class or buff all the others, as it's not fair otherwise. I could argue that VG/PT and Guardian/Jugg have 3 viable trees as well, but not to the level of marauders/sents.

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Oh no no no no no you didn't just bring "30m" into this! Don't ruin your credibility so early man. That's laughable and not even worth explaining. If you don't already understand the problem then get out and pvp a little more.

 

 

No sorry. I-win button is called 6k AE SMASH! Merc have pretty sub-par burst (whish is just one of their many problems which need fixing). Zach is right. As long as bioware acts like smash specs are ok, then they are the standard. And if someone can leap into a pack of guys and autocrit for multiple targets for 6k every 11 seconds when I have trouble getting 5k on a single target we have a problem.

 

If you don't understand how range can be used to any ranged class's advantage (though, admittedly, mercs are the worst at this), then you're bad and no change that can be made will make you not bad.

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If Marauders/Sent can have all 3 of their trees viable in PvP, then the other ACs should have all of their trees viable as well.

 

Yes.

 

Focus was still viable before the buff, the buff just made it moron-proof. The spec is almost as easy as pyro PT now.

 

All I'm saying is, if one class can have 3 viable trees, then either BW needs to nerf the one class or buff all the others, as it's not fair otherwise. I could argue that VG/PT and Guardian/Jugg have 3 viable trees as well, but not to the level of marauders/sents.

 

Yes. I could argue that Carnage is still squishy and that Rage is idiot proof. Yes we get it, Marauders have huge epeens. Next?

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Wow the answer from the dev is so underwhelming. It's like they don't even play the game. Other classes do pillar humping far better than merc/commandos. If there was a permanent passive hold the line ability for merc commandos then maybe they would have a fighting chance humping pillars.
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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

BW: "We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP."

*5-7 months later*

BW: "Dear loyal fans, only 1 more month till the adjustments for Mercs and Commandos come out!"

Me: You serious? -_-

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BW: "We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP."

*5-7 months later*

BW: "Dear loyal fans, only 1 more month till the adjustments for Mercs and Commandos come out!"

Me: You serious? -_-

 

Yeah.. would be nice to have some sort of timetable. Is the soon actually soon, or is it a Blizzard type of soon? Any type of details would be nice. Hopefully a Dev actually conjures up the ambition to parse a couple of the merc threads on this forum, like this one, for good ideas to fix the class.

 

As someone else said already, help us to help you. As far as PvP goes, the best PvP'rs in this game know how to play it better than the Devs do, and they know how to make it better also.

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Everything should be balanced for giving Mercs the tools to be a ranged class and maintain range, while giving melee and 10m specs a chance at killing them. You don't want to have a situation where Mercs become the kings of kiting and are untouchable, becoming the new FOTM class. Balance is key here. Balance is about addressing the turret nature of the Arsenal spec, the damage of Mercs is fine.

 

u mean snipers?

 

instead of making charged bolts instant i would make tech overrid, which is useless at its current state, to cast abilities instantly for the next 10 seconds, instead of only one, worst high lvl skill ever, laughable at best.

Edited by xxIncubixx
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Woot, glad to hear something is in the works, even if it takes the next 3 months.

 

So far I've been hearing good ideas from most of the thread. As both a Merc and Commando player (and having played all 3 specs) I agree almost completely with a mix of most changes proposed. I'll high light a few.

 

1.) Jetpack Disengage/Grav Retreat: Something to move us back 10-15 meters after a Lol-jumper bounces on us. On a side thought, perhaps an interceed ability like a Guardian. Would give us mobility, an escape, and something to bring to team in Huttball. Atm, the only worse carrier for a huttball is maybe a sniper... and they get leap immunity!

 

2.) Unintteruptable Unload: Idc if procc'ed or unprocc'ed, plenty of classes already have an unitteruptable channel. If other classes must intterupt something, save it for our off-heals, grav round, or plasma grenade.

 

3. Instant Powershot. I'd put this in the Pyro/Assault spec, it's the only spec that really needs it. Atm it's better to just hammer shot then it is to powershot.

 

4. Get rid of our crappy self heal and give us some utility/defensive CD. Gravity Field/Flame Defense that makes us immune to jumps and pulls for 5 seconds, on a decent CD? (60-90 seconds), Maybe Coordination/Light'em-Up! That gives the team a damage boost? Something to make teams want a Commando/Merc.

 

5. That root in the arsenel/gunnery tree needs to go. Put it as a KB, or a slow (Leg break maybe?) or add something new in entirely. (Perhaps a 50% chance to refresh the disengage/escape skill?)

 

Of course not all of these, whatever the dev's feel best. I don't want the Merc up in the Fotm category, just... useful.

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Yes "escapeability" is a problem. However, so is the damage for Assault. Vanguards have two instant abilities to proc HIB, causing them to proc them far more often. I have both a Commando and a Vanguard. By my trial I proc HIB approximately 25% more often with my Vanguard, and that's not including the Commando being interrupted or utterly annihilated in the process of casting.

 

As far as escapes. If you were to add a speed boost after the successful root or have the knockback on top of the root, this issue would probably be resolved. Or maybe even having a "hold the line' ability on a successful root.

 

Please don't ignore the dps problem though.

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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Regardless of what anyone else has to say about this, I appreciate your response and am willing to wait and see what the development team has designed.

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Honest to god, a lot these issues are completely surrounded by the melee superiority vs range in PvP. If they made it more harder for melee to close in on Sorc, Mercs then this problem wouldn't be an issue.

 

At least my sorcerer can still burn melee with his bubblestun to get some payback. But that alone isn't even a fix.

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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

Thank you! :)

 

I disagree with that the problem would be only when faced with multiple enemies, but still, I really appreciate the reply and I'm glad that you'd planning on doing something about the issue! :)

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I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability"

 

 

"To hug corners", "escapability " and nothing more? :rolleyes:

This means they really decided to kill dps-mercs in pvp? :confused:

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Why is that stupid? you don't have to roll a new toon to play both environs with the same toon. one AC remains viable in both PvP and PvE. why is it stupid? because you're in love with your PvE-centric spec? dude, PvE is PvEasy. it just is. and BW has to make PvEasy specs so that introductory players (or casuals, w/e) will have an option. they'd have to completely redesign PvP to make tracer spamming competitive. that would break every other class. the spec sucks in pvp. deal with it. there are (or should be) other (more mobile) options.

 

I have level 15 Mercenary only so I'm pretty much impartial in the debate. I'm just saying that there are many, many specs in the game that are viable in both PvE and PvP. All three Sentinel/Marauder specs. All three Sniper/Gunslinger specs (Engineering/Saboteur isn't crap at all, no matter what a previous poster said). Both Guardian/Juggernaut DPS specs are viable in PvP (yes, they are, I play the weaker one).

 

Plenty of people offered plenty of solutions to increase the viability of the Arsenal/Gunnery spec. Brief immunity to interrupts (doesn't affect PvE at all), additional escape abilities (doesn't affect PvE at all).

 

The PvEasy comment is so childish and immature. Like PvP is hard. You hit the queue button, mess around for 10-15 minutes and get reward. Yay.

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