Is 5% DR on Discharge/Breach enough though?

 

It's been mathed several times. It doesn't seem like *much*, but it's all we need. In fact, to preserve mean mitigation rather than improve it, it should be 4% which *still* reduces spikiness enough for it not to be a problem while still being spikier than the other tanks.

I rarely encounter folks so willing to share, and so able to be lucid and concise. Thanks for your contributions.

 

The communities for other games I've played have been pretty willing to share their optimization/analysis models with the sole exception of WoW, so I think, as far as to how freely theorycrafters are willing to share, WoW is more of the exception than the rule.

 

I'm also not sure that I've ever been called "concise". I generally get referred to as being exceptionally verbose (of course, I'm verbose because I try to explain everything and explore the given possibilities and reasons, with a heavy emphasis on parenthetical statements to bring my inner monologue to the debate, all of which contributes to the lucidity and comprehensibility). As my signature says, I really *do* love Walls of Text.

What I have been thinking for a while is how would self healing that scales with incoming damage work?

 

That is changing the self-heals so that they heal based on a percentage taken immediately before the self-heal is activated.

 

There should of course be some minimum amount of healing caused that is not affected by damage taken, that would pretty close to what they are now, perhaps slightly lower, but there should also be a component to the self healing that heals you for a percentage of damage taken within last 2 seconds, allowing the self-heals to be noticeably bigger immediately after large damage spikes.

 

This would alleviate spikiness a little bit and also do something about the old common complaint that self healing does not scale with incoming damage.

Sounds like it would be to complex for them to do if im honest. I think they shouldnt really lean towards self healing more than already, except for scaling the Combat Technique heal properly. The simplest most straight forward way i think is as ppl say about 4-5% DR in the tree, probably high high up the tree to make it unreachable witout full or near full tank spec.

Sounds like it would be to complex for them to do if im honest. I think they shouldnt really lean towards self healing more than already, except for scaling the Combat Technique heal properly.

 

No, it would not be too complex. Things like that have been done in other games and it would not be any harder to do here as this game also logs all the relevant information about every action that affected the player so it would be simple matter to just retrieve that information about damage taken from last couple of seconds and make the self healing scale with that.

 

And people have been asking for Combat Technique heals to scale properly for ages (currently they don't scale with anything) but I really don't want just another heal that heals for a percentage of max health.

A heal that scales with incoming damage would be more welcome.

 

And it's not all about going for more healing. I wouldn't mind the overall healing to be very slightly lowered if in exchange we could get bigger heals just after larger spikes of damage taken.

 

This would not have to exclude the possibility to do other changes to lower spikiness either.

 

And I was thinking more of the Combat Technique/Dark Charge heals specifically to be changed to work this way.

I would not necessarily change the heal from TkT/FL with 3 stacks at all.

And it's not all about going for more healing. I wouldn't mind the overall healing to be very slightly lowered if in exchange we could get bigger heals just after larger spikes of damage taken.

 

That doesn't actually address spikiness whatsoever though. It makes the self healing more *applicable* because it scales better with incoming damage, normalizing the performance of Shadows across high and low DtPS scenarios, but, because it's *reactive* mitigation, will do nothing to help you survive a bit hit. You have to *survive* the spike for any kind of self healing to be useful. Since we rely so *much* on our self healing (~25% of total mitigation), this means that we're only tackling spikes with 75% of our mitigation only ~30% of which is actually static with the remainder being DR based (which doesn't really count in spike scenarios since you can't rely on it; people die when they *don't* get a Def/Shield, not when they *do*). In short, against spike damage, we only really get to apply 30% of our total mitigation.

 

As such, the way to *reduce* spikiness isn't to tweak how our self healing is applied (as previously mentioned, you have to *survive* a spike to make self healing useful; Death Strike was effective because it provided an *absorb shield* that scaled with the self healing that scaled with incoming damage and you actively moved to make that absorb shield *bigger* with Mastery), it's to modify our mitigation profile so that we rely *less* on RNG mechanisms and reactive mechanisms.

 

Personally, I'd much rather see a drastic reduction in our reliance upon reactive mechanisms (re: self healing) more than RNG mechanisms (RE: Def, Shield, Abs) because the reactive mechanisms are more complex to cause to scale (and, yes, while it's *possible*, it's *still* more complex than adjusting numbers in an existing system, especially since you're asking for a new system to be designed exclusively for Shadow tanks to use) and are the *worst* kind of mitigation from a functional standpoint (avoid damage always > avoid damage sometimes > recover from damage).

So, as I read through all the posts, I'm becoming more and more convinced the best solution is up DR from armor, nerf self heals. Making that change reduces the skill requirement for shadows, so I think it's fair to increase our required external healing, but it seems to me like one of the few effective solutions that should be fairly easy to change in the code (changing a few values). There are a lot of more elegant ideas out there that would make for more interesting mechanics, but it would take a long while to write the code and another year to debug it after it went live. My $0.02.

Seems like theres nothing for us in 2.2.1 anyhoo, ah well. Maybe 2.3 or 4.0 lol.. Edited June 24, 2013 by Botho

Seems like theres nothing for us in 2.2.1 anyhoo, ah well.

 

But at least we got a Cartel Electrostaff! We should be happy! /sarcasm

Aye, it will look great on the floor next to my corpse.

Sounds like it would be to complex for them to do if im honest. I think they shouldnt really lean towards self healing more than already, except for scaling the Combat Technique heal properly. The simplest most straight forward way i think is as ppl say about 4-5% DR in the tree, probably high high up the tree to make it unreachable witout full or near full tank spec.

 

If you're going to add 4-5% DR may as well be DC/CT so tree specs wouldn't really matter.

 

I also feel DC/CT should have a scaling component instead of a static amount.

Edited June 24, 2013 by tXHereticXt

Aye, it will look great on the floor next to my corpse.

 

I saw how it looks today, not a good looker IMO, so we can't even be dead and sexy now

Here, I have come up with a spec that helps to solve sin tank spikiness at the cost of taking greater damage over time.

 

32/11/3

The spec revolves around taking darkswell in the middle tree to give us one more cooldown to be used when needed, because lets face it; we take such huge spikes that all the standard cooldowns aren't enough. Note the spec does have threat issues in the opening as well as threat issues in trash pulls, but NiM is about the bosses.

 

Spec here: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RIroddfdM0MZfrz0zZbz.3

 

Log of NiM TFB 1st boss: http://www.torparse.com/a/318208/8/0/Damage+Taken

 

Video of 1st fight here: http://www.twitch.tv/ftom14cat/c/2515552

 

This is not meant to be a critique of my play, only meant to be a suggestion for a tool to use to mitigate how spiky sins are.

Edited July 3, 2013 by JClawson
edit to fix typo

Here, I have come up with a spec that helps to solve sin tank spikiness at the cost of taking greater damage over time.

 

32/11/3

The spec revolves around taking darkswell in the middle tree to give us one more cooldown to be used when needed, because lets face it; we take such huge spikes that all the standard cooldowns aren't enough. Note the spec does have threat issues in the opening as well as threat issues in trash pulls, but NiM is about the bosses.

 

Spec here: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RIroddfdM0MZfrz0zZbz.3

 

Log of NiM TFB 1st boss: http://www.torparse.com/a/318208/8/0/Damage+Taken

 

Video of 1st fight here: http://www.twitch.tv/ftom14cat/c/2515552

 

This is not meant to be a critique of my play, only meant to be a suggestion for a tool to use to mitigate how spiky sins are.

 

This spec has been discussed extensively in the past. The 25% damage redux is good, and it's a shorter CD than Overcharge Saber, but it's far from a solution to the problem. First off, you're increasing your baseline damage taken by 5.26% by not having the Wither debuff rolling (note: this counts for spikes as well as average damage). Second, you're dramatically increasing the amount of time it takes you to build your self-heal, which reduces your mean survivability by an enormous factor. I don't have the numbers handy, but I had previously computed this to be roughly equivalent to 6-7% of your total survivability. Finally, you're missing out on the 2% healing received buff. Thus, you are increasing the healing you require by over 13%.

 

Right on its face, this indicates that you would be better off going with a different option. Using a more conventional >36 point spec and then stacking all B mods with 2 or 3 Endurance augments would increase your healing required by less than half of this percentage, while bringing the probability of death on a severely spiky fight in line with that of a guardian. In other words, you can make the "more healing vs spikiness" tradeoff in a different way at far more favorable terms.

 

The nail in the coffin is that this spec only grants a defensive CD, it doesn't actually grant any static damage reduction. Thus it requires you to anticipate the spike, which due to the nature of shadows is almost random by its nature (since you will only get spiked if your mitigation fails). You can definitely predict some things through knowledge of the fight (e.g. Kel'sara's Discharge), but you're not going to get everything. You have, at best, given yourself another tool to deal with a small subset of cases, somewhat unreliably.

 

And for that you're trading a huge amount of threat and DPS, as well as 13% more healing.

 

Verdict: No.

Edited July 3, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

Finally, you're missing out on the 2% healing received buff

 

It concerns me that you didn't even look at the spec before replying, but I guess that is your prerogative. Had you looked at it you would see that I do in fact keep the 2% healing received.

 

Obviously the point of the spec is not to use this new cooldown with some type of unattainable clairvoyance. However, the problem I am running into is getting hit with a series of unlucky/unmitigated attacks during which time I (a) have no cooldowns available, and (b) cannot receive heals in time before I die. This spec adds 1 more cooldown to use in those situations, it basically buys 6 seconds to get some big heals cooking on me.

 

Like I said in the original post, the reason sin/shadow tanks are failing is because of the burst. If I increase the heals I need in the aggregate by 5-10% at the cost of not dying during a boss pull then I count that as winning. Let's face it, healing in this game is more than capable of taking up the long term incoming damage this spec creates; and the spec prevents the short term damage from causing a wipe.

 

Baring a real fix to the sin/shadow tanking tree/kit I will be playing this spec to clear NiM content as it is the only way I feel safe handling the massive burst damage that we are seeing. By no means does anyone else have to bow down and worship this option, just consider it before uninstalling your game. It does have the added benefit of making the sin/shadow require even more skill to play.

Any time you have to look at skipping the top tree ability is a damn good indication that the skill tree is badly broken. (See: pre-2.0 hybrid guardian/juggernauts tanks, post-2.0 hybrid vanguard/powertech DPS).

 

From the 2.3 patch notes, nothing there for us either, so no improvement probably till September/October.

 

My Guardian should be 50 this weekend, maybe even 55. My shadow tank is basically collecting gear/comms for her till then.

Hey guys,

 

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

 

-eric

 

So it only took a month and a half and Leafy committing forum seppuku for us to finally get a response, much less any attention. I find it incredibly disheartening that after *everything we've done" the best we get is "investigating* (because, you know, it's not like we haven't presented them with a *crapton* of evidence and math) and "no timeline". Awesome...

 

I am very happy that we *finally* got a response though. Maybe the community mods will finally feel like coming over to the class forums more than once in a blue moon.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Kitru

lol I cant beleive how such people think, You ask them "just toss us a bone, anything will do, dont leave us hanging" and they give you answer, and even if its not the answer u wanted you still complain XD

I'm glad it is being investigated and that we know they are aware of the concern. I pray the 'investigation' is done quickly and that we get a fix on the way soon. I love my Shadow. I don't want him to retire.

 

Hopefully they won't be giving a timeline because we're up for a hotfix? 2.3? Please not 2.4. If it is that long, my shadow will be retired.

lol I cant beleive how such people think, You ask them "just toss us a bone, anything will do, dont leave us hanging" and they give you answer, and even if its not the answer u wanted you still complain XD

 

I'm *ecstatic* that they finally decided to weigh in, but that doesn't change the fact that they only provided the absolute *minimum* to assuage me rather than actually saying anything that would return some degree of respect/trust that they've demolished with their behavior thus far.

 

The only thing we've learned is that they're *finally* paying attention (not that they actually believe it's an issue), which isn't much since they were paying attention to Guardian threat and didn't fix *that* for over a year.

Hey guys,

 

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

 

-eric

 

Depressingly bare in the information department, but I think we all understand that your hands are tied in this respect. I would strongly, strongly encourage the combat team to either pass on to you very detailed information, or (even better) post here themselves. We've developed extensive mathematical models and simulations to illuminate and explore this problem; we would appreciate if the tenor of the discussion is preserved in that form. (in other words, a vague reference to "metrics" is likely to spark another revolt)

 

Thank you again for finally getting back to us. As frustrating as it is to have very little information in this area, it's better than *no* information or acknowledgement.

I'm glad it is being investigated and that we know they are aware of the concern. I pray the 'investigation' is done quickly and that we get a fix on the way soon. I love my Shadow. I don't want him to retire.

 

Hopefully they won't be giving a timeline because we're up for a hotfix? 2.3? Please not 2.4. If it is that long, my shadow will be retired.

 

My shadow and assassin tanks are already retired. Double XP has been great for leveling a guardian. It feels much more solid. Can't believe I struggled through shadow tanking for so long in 2.0, watching my health drop to 2k with my heart in my mouth hoping healers weren't caught between GCDs. Watching my assassin co-tank get mysteriously one-shot from 85% and have everyone mystified at why, secretly wondering if he just wasn't 'good' enough to hit the right cooldown in time. Well, thankfully the forums helped clear up what was going on. His PT never has that issue.

 

As for me, Guardian. Plenty of AOE threat, unbelievable cooldowns, great utility. Go for it. Sure it's a little dumber, you basically hit your cooldown buttons one by one, but it sure beats being dead.

 

Unfortunately, I only have time to do this on the pub side. I'm no longer endgame tanking on imp side. Don't really see a use for my Assassin or Shadow since they can't DPS competitively either... at least they have 5 companions for farming crafting mats.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Ilith

Hey guys,

 

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

 

-eric

 

Any comment is better than no comment, for sure.

 

I suppose it's extra disheartening because the content team had a pretty good answer in EC with Kephess. They ignored that answer for their 2.0 content and the horrific spike-damage-related imbalance is the result.

It concerns me that you didn't even look at the spec before replying, but I guess that is your prerogative. Had you looked at it you would see that I do in fact keep the 2% healing received.

 

I did actually look at it, but it was late and I missed the Shadow Shelter talent (sorry!). In previous discussions, this talent had been dropped.

 

Even with the 2% healing received, you're still requiring almost 11% more external healing. As I said in my post, this is a really bad trade. You're mathematically MUCH better off switching to all B mods (which you can get for coms) and a few Fortitude augments. Endurance stacking fixes the spikiness issue outright at the cost of significantly more healing (but no where near as much more as this hybrid spec requires). It's not a *good* solution, but it's better than sacrificing Wither for a mere 25% DR cooldown.

 

Obviously the point of the spec is not to use this new cooldown with some type of unattainable clairvoyance. However, the problem I am running into is getting hit with a series of unlucky/unmitigated attacks during which time I (a) have no cooldowns available, and (b) cannot receive heals in time before I die. This spec adds 1 more cooldown to use in those situations, it basically buys 6 seconds to get some big heals cooking on me.

 

Generally speaking, I rarely find myself in a situation where I've been spiked hard and I *don't* have a CD available. The problem is more that I get spiked to DEATH before I have a chance to react, and the spikes themselves can come in rapid chains (sometimes unhealably fast). Having another 25% DR CD is nice, but it doesn't address that issue.

 

Like I said in the original post, the reason sin/shadow tanks are failing is because of the burst. If I increase the heals I need in the aggregate by 5-10% at the cost of not dying during a boss pull then I count that as winning. Let's face it, healing in this game is more than capable of taking up the long term incoming damage this spec creates; and the spec prevents the short term damage from causing a wipe.

 

Sure, but what if you could increase the healing you need by just 3-5% while addressing the spikiness issues in a way that *actually* works in all circumstances (i.e. not requiring manual intervention)? Wouldn't that be a better deal? You get that if you stack B mods and a few Fort augments.

 

Baring a real fix to the sin/shadow tanking tree/kit I will be playing this spec to clear NiM content as it is the only way I feel safe handling the massive burst damage that we are seeing.

 

I wouldn't. NiM Dread Guard is still primarily an efficiency fight. The primary bit of spikiness is in the third phase with Kel'sara's Discharge paired with Clairvoyant Strike. This spike comes once every 30-45 seconds with a probability of just 10% (still unacceptably likely, but not a consistent thing). I have found that I always have a CD up for when this spike happens.

 

Your build will require 11% more external healing, which translates into 165 more HPS. That doesn't sound like a lot, but when the healers are already essentially at the extreme limit of what their energy regen can support, every bit counts. You might be able to clear the boss with this build, but trust me when I say that you're going to make your healers work a lot harder than they need to.