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Things that are Dead should stay DEAD!


Reeny

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The "oh noes this big bad guy isn't really dead" plot is as overused in SWtOR as the "oh noes this trusted person betrayed me" plot. I want to see something fresher than that in Onslaught

 

Please don't take this wrong... but isn't that what is supposedly going to happen with the upcoming SW Movie .. Rise of Skywalker ... the Emperor returns ??? (at least that's one of the theories floating around right now).

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The "oh noes this big bad guy isn't really dead" plot is as overused in SWtOR as the "oh noes this trusted person betrayed me" plot. I want to see something fresher than that in Onslaught

 

Agreed. Both of those tropes are so tired and overdone at this point.

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Please don't take this wrong... but isn't that what is supposedly going to happen with the upcoming SW Movie .. Rise of Skywalker ... the Emperor returns ??? (at least that's one of the theories floating around right now).

 

So it would seem. Which proves the point. Dead things should stay dead. :p

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So it would seem. Which proves the point. Dead things should stay dead. :p

 

Recycled Palpatine was in the EU that was wiped out for the new movies, too, pretty extensively. Bit of a surprise that the film might be tapping into that. And yet not a surprise to anyone who knew about the old EU.

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The "oh noes this big bad guy isn't really dead" plot is as overused in SWtOR as the "oh noes this trusted person betrayed me" plot. I want to see something fresher than that in Onslaught

 

I agree especially with the betrayal by someone we trusted arc, I've had enough of it.

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Recycled Palpatine was in the EU that was wiped out for the new movies, too, pretty extensively. Bit of a surprise that the film might be tapping into that. And yet not a surprise to anyone who knew about the old EU.

 

Yeah, I skipped those books. I skipped the comic where he turned Luke to the dark side too and Leia rescued him. I did not read them therefore they did not happen. ;)

 

Sort of like how Episode IX will work out for me since I won't be going to see it (in all likelihood), but that's a can of worms I have no desire to open on these forums.

 

As it is on this topic, yes I would have preferred Malgus had stayed dead. I didn't like the arrogant ***** ever and if I had free choice in the game I'd have lighsabered him in half on sight as soon as he reappeared. But there is no free choice (at least in game anyway), so meh. I'll play it as is.

 

aloha

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If this is the case then....

 

 

Thexan isn't dead! Vaylin isn't dead!

 

 

I was hoping for a new Big Bad that's uniquely designed and cleverly terrifying, so seeing Malgy back was a bit of a letdown. He was a believable Sith yes, but I was looking forward for someone new. I always love seeing new models but Malgy looks..... weird. His skin....

 

Anyways I hope this will be the last "recycled villain" trope card they're pulling.

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If this is the case then....

 

 

Thexan isn't dead! Vaylin isn't dead!

 

 

I was hoping for a new Big Bad that's uniquely designed and cleverly terrifying, so seeing Malgy back was a bit of a letdown. He was a believable Sith yes, but I was looking forward for someone new. I always love seeing new models but Malgy looks..... weird. His skin....

 

Anyways I hope this will be the last "recycled villain" trope card they're pulling.

 

Thexan and Vaylin are dead, at least in a physical sense. I'm pretty sure Vaylin is rattling around in the commanders head somewhere and Thexan was betrayed by Arcann and just died, it was stated enough times between Arcann and Vaylin about Thexan.

 

Malgus obviously never learned to commune with the force to preserve himself in the force, and when he was brought back, with extra parts and force sensitivity and all. You'd expect Malgus to of never come back, but it seems Cerberus and TIM operate in the star wars universe as well, just waiting for the Cerberus name to cross the lips of certain individuals now. :p

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If this is the case then....

 

 

Thexan isn't dead! Vaylin isn't dead!

 

 

I was hoping for a new Big Bad that's uniquely designed and cleverly terrifying, so seeing Malgy back was a bit of a letdown. He was a believable Sith yes, but I was looking forward for someone new. I always love seeing new models but Malgy looks..... weird. His skin....

 

Anyways I hope this will be the last "recycled villain" trope card they're pulling.

 

I agree. As strange as it was at first to bring Mallora forward as a major character, I was looking forward to seeing what they could do with her and with some other new or newly-promoted characters. And then here comes Malgus, and Mallora and everyone else was just pushed to the side. :rolleyes:

 

I really didn't like that Malgus seemed to be the quest giver for Dantooine, giving directions the same way he did when my character was an apprentice running Hammer Station. It seemed like a step backward to say the least.

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I agree. As strange as it was at first to bring Mallora forward as a major character, I was looking forward to seeing what they could do with her and with some other new or newly-promoted characters. And then here comes Malgus, and Mallora and everyone else was just pushed to the side. :rolleyes:

 

I really didn't like that Malgus seemed to be the quest giver for Dantooine, giving directions the same way he did when my character was an apprentice running Hammer Station. It seemed like a step backward to say the least.

 

There is a very probable explanation for this new focus on retreating to old characters and concepts and I am certain we the players are responsible for it, whether we like it or not.

 

When they released KOTFE and KOTET they made a big deal out of how they created a completely fresh storyline with a power shift to a new faction (Eternal Empire) and changed the conflict to empire/republic vs Zakuul. We got EA funded trailers that were technically and dramatically absolutely spectacular, a lot of new assets, a pretty big graphical and mechanical update (considering we are talking about the Hero engine here), a lot of interconnected, character-driven storylines that tried to bring home the idea of giving you major influence over the state of the galaxy with your decisions. In fact the only real connection to the old story was

Valkorion as the former sith emperor and now eternal emperor who was only there because apparently every star wars story needs a sith emperor to be considered complete.

 

 

It failed, miserably. And apart from questionable mechanical changes (Galactic Command) the prelevant feedback by many vocal players was that they hated this new story and demanded that everything should be turned back to the classic Sith empire vs. Jedi Republic star wars drama.

 

I can imagine how the dev team had/has to scramble trying to tie up all the different loose ends that had been created in order to put the train back on the old tracks.

 

I am actually extremely curious how they will approach Onslaught in that regard.

Edited by Phazonfreak
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There is a very probable explanation for this new focus on retreating to old characters and concepts and I am certain we the players are responsible for it, whether we like it or not.

 

When they released KOTFE and KOTET they made a big deal out of how they created a completely fresh storyline with a power shift to a new faction (Eternal Empire) and changed the conflict to empire/republic vs Zakuul. We got EA funded trailers that were technically and dramatically absolutely spectacular, a lot of new assets, a pretty big graphical and mechanical update (considering we are talking about the Hero engine here), a lot of interconnected, character-driven storylines that tried to bring home the idea of giving you major influence over the state of the galaxy with your decisions. In fact the only real connection to the old story was

Valkorion as the former sith emperor and now eternal emperor who was only there because apparently every star wars story needs a sith emperor to be considered complete.

 

 

It failed, miserably. And apart from questionable mechanical changes (Galactic Command) the prelevant feedback by many vocal players was that they hated this new story and demanded that everything should be turned back to the classic Sith empire vs. Jedi Republic star wars drama.

 

I can imagine how the dev team had/has to scramble trying to tie up all the different loose ends that had been created in order to put the train back on the old tracks.

 

I am actually extremely curious how they will approach Onslaught in that regard.

 

Malgus's survival, as others have said, was floated with the original ending to the flashpoint, way before KOTFE. The small bit of footage of him in carbonite dates to the KOTFE era.

 

Thus, I don't think this has a thing to do with KOTFE/KOTET or the fans and is everything to do with them deciding to fall back on yet another old and tired trope. We seem to keep alternating in this game between betrayal and "wait! They aren't dead!" arcs and it's tiresome. Our own character even got two separate "Wait! They're not dead!" moments to hammer in the trope nice and properly. :rolleyes:

 

I know it's very fashionable to hate KOTFE/KOTET, but it does need to be said that many players did enjoy it. I'm personally not even a little impressed by the return to IMPS VS PUBS 4EVA!!!!! and find it old, tired and completely and utterly boring.

 

The devs should IMHO have gone through with their original plan for three seasons instead of kowtowing to those who screamed the loudest.

 

Regardless, they did, they've spent the past two years giving subpar story and we've all paid the price.

Edited by IoNonSoEVero
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I know it's very fashionable to hate KOTFE/KOTET, but it does need to be said that many players did enjoy it. I'm personally not even a little impressed by the return to IMPS VS PUBS 4EVA!!!!! and find it old, tired and completely and utterly boring.

 

For the record, I absolutely agree with you. I liked KOTFE/KOTET from a dramatic perspective, even if some mechanics were bothersome. I am a sucker for heightened family drama.

 

But at least what I read and heard BioWare got a lot of flak for it.

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I'm not sure why Malgus should be the exception to the apparent rule in this game that the dead are never really dead. The principal storyline revolves around the emperor constantly being killed and then popping up yet again. This recycling of villains is literally the foundation of the game's story.

 

I don't really believe that any video game--or TV series or movie franchise--really escapes using certain recurring tropes. Video games are probably the most limited storytelling medium of all because it's primarily a game, not just a story. Games are repetitive by nature.

 

Consider all of the storylines in SWTOR for a moment. Most of them seem to fit neatly into just a few categories:

 

 

  • Fighting the same old villain you've already killed
  • Other side has a superweapon
  • Loyal allies are really traitors

 

...or a combination of them, such as "loyal ally that you thought was dead is now back with a superweapon and has been a traitor all along."

 

Heck, even the Star Wars films tend to follow the same general pattern, and those guys do have the luxury of committing all their production resources to storytelling.

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Yeah, I just find it kind of corny and low-effort. Probably caused by marketing saying "we want a recognizable face." I don't strongly dislike it, it's just sort of... eh.

 

The problem is, while people can make excuses about Malgus and whether he was ever really supposed to be dead for realsies, the fact is that the decision they went with in the end made it seem like you kill him. Furthermore, if they wanted to retcon it, why not bring him back sooner? It just comes across like such a desperate marketing move to bring him back this far into the game's story.

 

And it does (I think fairly) raise questions about other characters who are "dead," that some want to see return in a romance-able and/or companion capacity, like Vaylin. If Malgus, why not her?

 

Ultimately, I'd rather characters just stay dead if they die because it maintains a sense of gravity when you kill someone. The more characters who come back, the more meaningless it all feels and the harder it is to be invested in the story when it tries to sell you on the weight of certain moments. But if they are going to just bring back whomever, might as well give people what they ask for, not just bring back select ones.

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For the record, I absolutely agree with you. I liked KOTFE/KOTET from a dramatic perspective, even if some mechanics were bothersome. I am a sucker for heightened family drama.

 

But at least what I read and heard BioWare got a lot of flak for it.

 

That is true.

 

Things to keep in mind:

 

  • KotFE was the final straw for a lot of story people who wished for Class Stories to come back. KotFE basically pissed on a ton of characters, and felt to a great many people that the writers were trying to lazily kill off the vanilla game and all ties to it in order to write all classes as a single story to make their lives easier and keep costs down (which was the truth). Make no mistake - KotFE was a GREAT story and game - but it was one that should have been a single player game; not an excuse to kill off all connections players had to their character and companions. So many of them left the game.
  • This means the forum here is slanted towards people who like the KotFE story and don't have a problem with the above, which is an attitude that is pervasive here. However, they are fewer in number than the people who left over issues with KotFE.
  • Of those who left, many of whom are somewhat still active on the SWTOR reddit that Bioware does keep an eye on, their big issue gripe was that KotFE diverged too much from their character. They also felt the introduction of a 3rd party took away from the Star Wars feel, as Star Wars has always been about 2 sides fighting each other.
  • Onslaught didn't come about because of a vocal minority crying loudly. BioWare has lots of feedback and data on this stuff. They are going this direction because this is what the majority of players want, and this is a way to get players to come back to the game.

 

Those are the facts, whether people like it or not. And frankly, BioWare has a ways to go too. Ossus gave a glimpse of much better writing that will bring those players back. But unless they find a way to restore players to their identities pre-kotfe and allow them to have meaningful interactions with their companions, I don't see this thing really going anywhere for long. We know class stories aren't coming back in their entirety (although if they did, that would be a coup and bring people back in droves - I doubt it because of EA and development $$$), but they can do something like the Shadow of Revan - there are still some mysteries left unsolved from that (looking at you Sith Inquisitor - who MADE that alien tech?).

 

And also, if we are going to make the Empire a force again, we will need a new big bad - one of bioware's issues is that they dispose of characters a little too flippantly, often as a way for the writer to get out of writing something satisfying for the player, instead crapping on the player's choices and making the writer's life easier (looking at you Nathema flashpoint).

 

Frankly, Jadus being behind the resurgent Empire, given he isn't dead and when he went into hiding, was considered 2nd in power to only the emperor, would make for a good return, and give a different take on the crazed or eccentric emperor motif, since Jadus is more cold and calculating, and was a critic of the Dark Council's stupid internal fights and sniping. If they don't treat him as disposable, he would make a great big bad for the next 3-5 years on the Imperial side. Something to stabilize the story, give it a focus, and with a central power figure (and Malgus as his Wrath?), it would force the Republic to do the same from a story sense.

 

It all depends on whether the writers want to aspire for greatness, or just want to be lazy and stupid. We're going to find out starting in September.

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Yeah, I just find it kind of corny and low-effort. Probably caused by marketing saying "we want a recognizable face." I don't strongly dislike it, it's just sort of... eh.

 

The problem is, while people can make excuses about Malgus and whether he was ever really supposed to be dead for realsies, the fact is that the decision they went with in the end made it seem like you kill him. Furthermore, if they wanted to retcon it, why not bring him back sooner? It just comes across like such a desperate marketing move to bring him back this far into the game's story.

 

And it does (I think fairly) raise questions about other characters who are "dead," that some want to see return in a romance-able and/or companion capacity, like Vaylin. If Malgus, why not her?

 

Ultimately, I'd rather characters just stay dead if they die because it maintains a sense of gravity when you kill someone. The more characters who come back, the more meaningless it all feels and the harder it is to be invested in the story when it tries to sell you on the weight of certain moments. But if they are going to just bring back whomever, might as well give people what they ask for, not just bring back select ones.

 

Why not bring him back sooner?

 

That's an easy one.

 

The producers before Keith were all EA yesmen who looked at the bottom line. They were bean counters who wanted to streamline production costs and essentially made decisions that robbed the players of the things that made this game great.

 

Now you have Keith in charge who actually listens to the players and cares about making a game the players want to play. So he is listening to the players, including the ones who left, and is trying to build a game that brings them back.

However, it takes time to develop things for an MMO. Onslaught has been in the works for at least a year, if not more. Things move slow. Its not like they could bring Malgus back in a satisfactory manner in a month.

 

And since they brought him back, he should stick around for a while - it would be lame and stupid to bring him back at Ossus only for him to die at the end of this expansion pack in September. They need to stop being so disposable with their villians in the first place.

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Why not bring him back sooner?

 

That's an easy one.

 

The producers before Keith were all EA yesmen who looked at the bottom line. They were bean counters who wanted to streamline production costs and essentially made decisions that robbed the players of the things that made this game great.

 

Now you have Keith in charge who actually listens to the players and cares about making a game the players want to play. So he is listening to the players, including the ones who left, and is trying to build a game that brings them back.

However, it takes time to develop things for an MMO. Onslaught has been in the works for at least a year, if not more. Things move slow. Its not like they could bring Malgus back in a satisfactory manner in a month.

 

And since they brought him back, he should stick around for a while - it would be lame and stupid to bring him back at Ossus only for him to die at the end of this expansion pack in September. They need to stop being so disposable with their villians in the first place.

I can't say I disagree, though I'm skeptical about how much Keith can accomplish after the recent debacle with the conquest change. At a certain point, I start to doubt if the infrastructure of this game can even handle a resurgence of interest; not so much from the standpoint of number of players (though that could be an issue too) but just broken old systems being difficult to do anything with on a budget.

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Malgus's survival, as others have said, was floated with the original ending to the flashpoint, way before KOTFE. The small bit of footage of him in carbonite dates to the KOTFE era.

 

Thus, I don't think this has a thing to do with KOTFE/KOTET or the fans and is everything to do with them deciding to fall back on yet another old and tired trope. We seem to keep alternating in this game between betrayal and "wait! They aren't dead!" arcs and it's tiresome. Our own character even got two separate "Wait! They're not dead!" moments to hammer in the trope nice and properly. :rolleyes:

 

I know it's very fashionable to hate KOTFE/KOTET, but it does need to be said that many players did enjoy it. I'm personally not even a little impressed by the return to IMPS VS PUBS 4EVA!!!!! and find it old, tired and completely and utterly boring.

 

The devs should IMHO have gone through with their original plan for three seasons instead of kowtowing to those who screamed the loudest.

 

Regardless, they did, they've spent the past two years giving subpar story and we've all paid the price.

 

I'm not sure that I agree with this 100%.. but your points are valid.

 

At least you're not trying to return to the old love/hate arguments of KotFE / ET as some do. Those old bitter gripe secession needs to be dead and buried. It will gain this community nothing. IMO .. KotFE / ET was a welcomed relief from some of the ummm (let me think of a polite way to say idiot companions) .. ummm dry as saw dust , misfit and often undesirable stories that went some of the light side characters I had to deal with.

 

Come to think of it ... I may try a couple of dark side toons just for fun to see if they really are any better.

 

That said ...

 

BW just needs to move forward and learn from the past. Most of what really hurt the game were mechanics more than anything else.

 

Some of those items that need to be improved are PvP. PvE and better gear drops. Related to that there is a lot to be said about a refreshed approach to crafting.. guild vaults for crafters.. etc etc..

 

But this thread is not about all of that. Al lot of us could use this topic as a springboard to jump on top of our favorite soap box !!!

 

BACK on topic

 

... Malgus is dead ! Some liked him ... others had a different name (but I wont go there )...

IMO .. one of the reasons that BW "might be doing this" (please note: MIGHT) .. is from so many of the Star Wars lore stories from so many other sources that have essentially done the same thing. Regardless of HOW it was done (all some from of spiritism ) the being in question transfers their essence into someone/something else and returns to life later. If you stop and think about it ... that was a lot of Tenebrae's story. Sooo the saga continues with yet another dark side character back from the dead !

 

This time it's a standard empire vs republic setting ... more or less.

 

For the record: IMO ....

 

Dead is DEAD !

+1 to kill counter !

Target has achieved DEADNESS !

 

Unless they are from the dark side !

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Regarding Malgus, it's been proven in the SW universe that if you fall down a shaft on a ship or station, you will not die (Sources: Luke, Darth Maul, Emperor). Keep in mind that before the nerfs, you had to defeat Malgus in False Emperor flashpoint by using a bomb on him when he was near death, which would knock him down into the shaft. The devs later nerfed it because "mechanics are hard."

 

 

Also, for fun: http://moviecreedlive.com/entertainment/2670992-darth-malgus-supreme-leader-snoke/

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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