In 2013 BioWare introduced an ability to the game called Exfiltrate/Scamper. From day one this ability caused severe issues in PvP where other players would frequently disappear after having used the ability. I made a thread about it, wishing for its removal: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=697702.

 

My thread wasn't really met with approval. To summarize, I highlight three issues with the ability:

• The ability is too strong
  
• The ability looks ridiculous (i.e. poor animation quality)
  
• The ability doesn't work and causes desync
  

 

I perhaps put too much focus on the first two items in that list when my main driving point was in the third. It has been almost six years since its inception and it is still just as bad as it has always been. Worse, in fact, because we've lost access to Cover; a unique ability to the MMORPG-genre, an anti-gap closer that was extremely powerful. Also, we've seen more gap closers being added to the game such as Mad Dash/Blate Blitz and Shadow Stride/Phantom Stride and none of these abilities works as designed (with the former one sharing the same issues Exfiltrate has). This is the reason why I'm posting this in the PvP forum rather than the Operative/Scoundrel forum; these abilities should be removed. I don't expect this idea is going to get a lot of traction within the current community, but hear me out.

 

The Problem with the Player Mentality

This is something I've witnessed not just in SWTOR but in World of Warcraft as well; people always think that the grass is greener on the other side and they start to complain. This guy from my original thread highlights my point fairly well:

Okay. But give to my dps operative phase walk, force speed and overload! And I do not mind 100% tech resist and others cool defCD's.

 

No? Then, please, dont suggest this bs.

 

Prior to 2.0, Operatives did not have any gap closers. But because Assassins had all of these cool abilities then Operatives must get something as well. Never mind that Operatives had other abilities such a strong ranged burst (Explosive Probe), the strongest ability for area denial in the game (Orbital Strike) and the aforementioned anti-gap closer, Cover. Also notice how we no longer have these abilities; they've all been replaced by weaker versions (Volatile Substance hits hard but is limited to 10m range and Toxic Haze does not interrupt cappers in PvP). Another thing Operatives had that Assassins lacked was a dispel which, to this day, is still a very useful ability (though arguably better in the past because of how many abilities have dispel immunity these days). My point is that Operatives weren't broken because they didn't have a gap closer. They had many other strengths to make up for it. But disillusioned players went on to the forums and complained and, subsequently, Operatives not only received a gap closer but the strongest mobility ability in the game.

 

This over-response from the developer is not uncommon, but it can have long and damaging ripple effects, as we've seen with Operatives. It extends beyond Operatives, however. Having started to level a Vanguard recently, it bothers me to no end that I've only got one attack I can use at 30m range. Being able to be a ranged tank was the main appeal of the Vanguard back in the day, and though Vanguards were never truly ranged, they did have an interesting mix of short and long range attacks. Today they're basically melee class, albeit a melee class with a generously long melee range (10 meters). And I'd accredit this to the desire to homogenize the classes, which kills the uniquity of the classes. When everyone eats the same green grass you've lost all the flavour.

 

What's the point? They'll never fix it anyway...

I do not dare to make the argument that it is in their best interest to remove all the abilities that do not work. A lot of players like these abilities and when playing solo the issues aren't as glaring, and I don't think the main bulk of their playerbase play the game for the PvP. However, if they were to adress the issue they'd either have to:

A: Fix the abilities, or

B: Remove them.

 

Personally I don't believe they're capable of doing A. So that leaves B. What are the odds that they'll do it, then? Well... World of Warcraft has done what's been dubbed "ability pruning" and it has been met with mixed responses. They basically culled half of the abilities and filed the classes down to their very cores. It would not be impossible for SWTOR to do the same, and if they were to would we really want to see an Operative with Force Speed, Phase Walk and Overload? Or do we want to see them with Explosive Probe, Orbital Strike and Cover? My answer is obvious. What do you think?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

 

TL;DR

Exfiltrate/Scamper, Blade Blitz/Mad Dash, Shadow Stride/Phantom Stride, Holotraverse/Trick Move do not work and should be removed from the game. Because they don't work. And if BioWare could have fixed them, they would have done it by now.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Majspuffen

Exfiltrate/Scamper, Blade Blitz/Mad Dash, Shadow Stride/Phantom Stride, Holotraverse/Trick Move do not work and should be removed from the game. Because they don't work. And if BioWare could have fixed them, they would have done it by now.

 

Disable in pvp maybe, but don't remove them. That would screw with pve a lot.

 

No one cares if roll dsyncs you in pve if your roll gets you out of the aoe or back in range to heal before someone dies.

 

While I agree that stride and holotraverse are horribly buggy even in pve (I use them mainly for ability procs) I need roll not for a gap closer, but for mobility.

 

Take roll away from my scoundrel/op and they will lose a lot of their pve survivability.

 

[although, why not just disable all mobility skills in PvP? It would be like everyone being electronetted for the whole warzone]

Disable in pvp maybe, but don't remove them. That would screw with pve a lot.

 

It is hard for me to talk about PvE as I've not done any serious PvE content since 1.2, but back then I played an Operative healer and I had no mobility cooldowns and did alright, and I can't remember our DPS operative complaining much at the time either. Perhaps the PvE climate is different today as boss encounters are tailored with the high mobility in mind.

 

However, what I'm suggesting is not only to remove the defectious mobility abilities but also to reinstate some long range attacks to Operatives/Scoundrels and Powertechs/Vanguards. Ideally, this should cushion the DPS drop for the low mobility; you can't get in and out of melee as fast as the Force Users, but while out of range you can maintain a portion of your DPS whereas theirs sharply decline. Quid pro quo.

[although, why not just disable all mobility skills in PvP? It would be like everyone being electronetted for the whole warzone]

 

The sarcasm is not lost on me. Considering the current class balance, you couldn't just remove all of the mobility cooldowns without also removing most of the new knockbacks and root effects. Did Shadows/Assassins really need a root effect on Force Wave/Overload? This was originally a talent that only Sages/Sorcerers had access to.

 

No, the only way they could remove the dysfunctional mobility abilities would be if they also culled a lot of other stuff. It would slow down the pace of PvP, but I don't think that would be a bad thing. But that's my personal opinion, the game was more tactical in the past and today it is more reflex-based. Perhaps that's what people want, in spite of all the performance issues.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Majspuffen

defining abilities that sometimes bug as "not working" and therefore grounds for removal is ridiculous, especially when they work fine more often than not

 

shall we remove force speed because you disappear if you're doing it on a ramp? same for rocket out? leaps because you can fall through the floor when doing them?

 

No, the only way they could remove the dysfunctional mobility abilities would be if they also culled a lot of other stuff. It would slow down the pace of PvP, but I don't think that would be a bad thing. But that's my personal opinion, the game was more tactical in the past and today it is more reflex-based. Perhaps that's what people want, in spite of all the performance issues.

Even if this happening were not a total fantasy, which it is, it is a half baked idea that would be far more likely to be a disaster than it would be to improve pvp in its current state

 

However, what I'm suggesting is not only to remove the defectious mobility abilities but also to reinstate some long range attacks to Operatives/Scoundrels and Powertechs/Vanguards. Ideally, this should cushion the DPS drop for the low mobility; you can't get in and out of melee as fast as the Force Users, but while out of range you can maintain a portion of your DPS whereas theirs sharply decline. Quid pro quo.

Your quid pro quo suggests you don't grasp the importance of exfiltrate. This "quid pro quo" would leave operatives, especially the dps, as irredeemable garbage Edited February 5, 2019 by bUrself_

Just 2 things:

 

1. This would make operatives basicly pts with worse dcds,less damage, less burst, less movement with alright offheals. No thanks

 

2. Literaly walking on stairs, ledges or on flat ground even can cause desync. As in with sprint disabled.

tbf. while in no way should it be removed the concealment ops roll needs a rework. even if you want to give them a new cd to compensate for the shift, its game breaking to have a move on 10 sec cd that resists all effects/dmg for up to 3 seconds.

 

I mean, how would we all like it if sorc bubble was spammable, since aside from stun breaking, bubble cast is basically the same thing? there is a reason bubble is on 2:30 sec cd.

 

and the core of why its issue isnt the effect, plenty of moves in this game have similar effects. its the cd timer. 10 secs is worlds ahead of any others class who can do this, additionaly, unlike mad dash and sniper roll (other variation of this) operative roll completely resists effects as well. if you use creeping terror on a rolling sniper he will resist it, however he will still be dotted when he stops rolling. a concealment operative will not, he wont take the dot at all.

 

personaly I would like it to be reworked into a temp stlth cloak after 2 rolls. meanwhile both, but the first one importantly, should resist stun and movement impair. I would honestly like to see the 200% white damage evasion moved completely to lethality oper. they already have a 30% def chance... which is oxymoron, since con has 3x better def chance+resist effect.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Seterade

defining abilities that sometimes bug as "not working" and therefore grounds for removal is ridiculous, especially when they work fine more often than not

 

shall we remove force speed because you disappear if you're doing it on a ramp? same for rocket out? leaps because you can fall through the floor when doing them?

 

It is true that Force Leap sometimes caused issues. I remember that sometimes the gap was not closed at all; as though it was cut half way. The difference is that this happened very rarely whereas Exfiltrating off of a ledge will always cause desync.

 

Even if this happening were not a total fantasy, which it is, it is a half baked idea that would be far more likely to be a disaster than it would be to improve pvp in its current state

You are correct in that it is a fantasy. The only reason something like this would happen would be if Bioware performed an ability pruning, like WoW did. I am not just advocating for the removal of the dysfunctional abilities, I'm advocating for their removal alongside the pruning of a lot of unnecessary CC. With this in mind, would you say it'd still be a disaster?

 

You can't cherrypick my arguments and criticize them one by one, you have to look at it as a whole.

 

Your quid pro quo suggests you don't grasp the importance of exfiltrate. This "quid pro quo" would leave operatives, especially the dps, as irredeemable garbage

I understand that it is important. But it's broken. When it comes to Operative's survivability, BioWare truly put all the eggs into one dysfunctional basket. As it stands, Exfiltrate is ridiculously powerful and Operatives would need a lot of compensation for losing it.

Just 2 things:

 

1. This would make operatives basicly pts with worse dcds,less damage, less burst, less movement with alright offheals. No thanks

By this logic, Operatives were Powertechs with worse DCDs in the original game. Was there no one utilizing dispel (known as Toxic Scan) and Cover? Or is throwing damage and running the only things people are capable of these days.

2. Literaly walking on stairs, ledges or on flat ground even can cause desync. As in with sprint disabled.

That's a straw man argument. Desync can happen if you walk on flat ground so Exfiltrate is okay? What you're saying is not inherently untrue; desync has always been an issue. But there are degrees. Desync can happen if you run off a ledge. It is more likely to happen if you have a speed boost of sorts. If that is the state of your game you don't introduce an ability that gives a sudden burst of speed that the engine then can't calculate. There's a big difference between can happen and always happens. No class is worse when it comes to desync than the Operative.

tbf. while in no way should it be removed the concealment ops roll needs a rework. even if you want to give them a new cd to compensate for the shift, its game breaking to have a move on 10 sec cd that resists all effects/dmg for up to 3 seconds.

 

I can agree that Concealment could use a gap closer of sorts, but not Exfiltrate because of the performance issues. It's sad that they couldn't even get Holotraverse to function, otherwise I wouldn't mind recommending that as a gap closer, but alas. Concealment Operatives did, once upon a time, get a speed run boost from using Sneak outside of stealth, if I recall correctly, but Sneak has also been removed from the game and these days finding a Stealther is near impossible unless you can guess their position with an AoE. :/ ... but now I'm derailing out on a tangent and I digress.

 

In my "fantasy", as it were, whatever they were to give Operatives should be within the bounds of what the engine can handle.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Majspuffen

I’m talking about how it would be for them now not how it was in the past with classes having significantly different utility compared to now. Not to mention the difference in TTK. I’ll be honest most people don’t use cleanse dosnt matter the class. And cover? Vaguely useful but this isn’t even close to being a core ability like roll.

 

Desync is one of your main arguments. Going by your logic every speedbost in the game isn’t working and needs to be removed. Same with phasewalk as it’s very common for sorcs to elevate to 100+ meters.

 

So let’s have a count for every ability that would be seen as broken with this logic

 

Predation

Hydraulic overrrides

Phase walk

Force speed

Exfiltrate

Covered escape

Fore camouflage

Concealment Countermeasures

Covers escape (sniper utility)

Mad dash

Force leap

Guardian leap

Holotraverse

Force pull

Phantom stride

Rocket charge

Jet charge

Grapple

You are correct in that it is a fantasy. The only reason something like this would happen would be if Bioware performed an ability pruning, like WoW did. I am not just advocating for the removal of the dysfunctional abilities, I'm advocating for their removal alongside the pruning of a lot of unnecessary CC. With this in mind, would you say it'd still be a disaster?

SWTOR has pruned abilities in recent expansions - small stuff with relatively low impact, crushing darkness on sins for example. The second you start mass pruning things of huge importance to the metagame like gap closers, DCDs, and CCs you are MASSIVELY messing with the state of the game.

 

Balancing games with very different classes is hard. Even if you're doing small, targeted changes. Completely removing abilities and mechanics that have been in the game for years (and were therefore balanced around for years) is basically guaranteed to be a mess.

 

 

I understand that it is important. But it's broken. When it comes to Operative's survivability, BioWare truly put all the eggs into one dysfunctional basket. As it stands, Exfiltrate is ridiculously powerful and Operatives would need a lot of compensation for losing it.

How is it "broken," exactly? It's certainly not overpowered seeing as how operative dps have been a niche, middling choice for practically the entire life of the game. Operative healers have had their heyday but exfiltrate had little to do with that.

 

I'm not in love with exfiltrate. It seems to me their reliance on it rather than on traditional mitigation DCDs has a lot to do with op's apparently permanent status as a niche, 1v1ing, objective-doing, off healer that is always outclassed in trinity team fights by at least a few classes that don't need to spend dozens of GCDs rolling around to not die. But one thing op dps certainly are not is overpowered.

OP? depends on a situation. the problem with ops is when skill meets skill and it comes to that clutch moment no class in swtor can cuck an op. in a game with 24 different classes 1 class should not be able to cuck 18 other dps/3tnks.

 

if you have 18 different dps classes, there should be at least 3 specs can can 1v1 (and win) any 1 spec.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Seterade

I’m talking about how it would be for them now not how it was in the past with classes having significantly different utility compared to now. Not to mention the difference in TTK.

I'll refer to one of my previous posts:

I am not just advocating for the removal of the dysfunctional abilities, I'm advocating for their removal alongside the pruning of a lot of unnecessary CC.

 

Also:

Desync is one of your main arguments. Going by your logic every speedbost in the game isn’t working and needs to be removed. Same with phasewalk as it’s very common for sorcs to elevate to 100+ meters.

 

So let’s have a count for every ability that would be seen as broken with this logic

To which I refer you to:

What you're saying is not inherently untrue; desync has always been an issue. But there are degrees. /.../ There's a big difference between can happen and always happens. No class is worse when it comes to desync than the Operative.

If these abilities, such as Force Leap and Force Speed, cause more desync today than they did in the past then something has broken over the years. In the original version there were only minor issues with these abilities and most of the time they would function as intended. Exfiltrate never did, from an observer's point of view. It always caused desync.

I’ll be honest most people don’t use cleanse dosnt matter the class. And cover? Vaguely useful but this isn’t even close to being a core ability like roll.

 

Just because people don't use cleanse does not mean it's not a useful ability. It's incredibly powerful as it can dispel 8 second mezzes, as well as all tech roots. A well played Operative is hard to pin down and this was true even back in the original game, despite their lack of any mobility abilities. Also, cover was incredibly useful (especially for Medicine and Lethality) but it's the same issue there: people didn't know how to utilize it. Even back in 1.1 when Medicine Operatives were rumoured to be underpowered, in the right hands, they were incredibly difficult to kill and this was largely due to Cover.

 

However, if they could fix the desync, I would not be so hard on Exfiltrate. Still, I personally don't like the ability, aesthetically, as I think the slower, tactical gameplay of the Operative in the past suited the class better, but I can understand how people these days prefer the reflex-based gameplay. But it's been 6 years. And the performance has not been improved. BioWare adding more mobility abilities hasn't really solved the issue as much as it has made it worse.

 

Also, kind of unrelated to the topic at hand but, in my personal (and most likely unpopular) opinion: the Cover system was pretty neat. It was fresh and new to the genre. It's sad that they gave up on it rather than explore its possibilities (I don't think the Sniper's portable cover is very exciting). It could actually function as a gap closer and an escape tool to the opportunistic and keen-eyed player. I miss it quite a lot.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Majspuffen

SWTOR has pruned abilities in recent expansions - small stuff with relatively low impact, crushing darkness on sins for example. The second you start mass pruning things of huge importance to the metagame like gap closers, DCDs, and CCs you are MASSIVELY messing with the state of the game.

 

Balancing games with very different classes is hard. Even if you're doing small, targeted changes. Completely removing abilities and mechanics that have been in the game for years (and were therefore balanced around for years) is basically guaranteed to be a mess.

 

Yes, there are fewer abilities these days but I find myself unable to play the game without a Razer Naga. I had to dig mine up shortly after having returned to the game, whereas in World of Warcraft I can make do with a Razer Deathadder (that ony has two thumb-buttons). Considering the game's appeal to a more casual audience, I'm surprised they haven't gotten rid of more abilities, but it is most likely as you say: it's difficult to balance. And the ability count probably doesn't matter. The difficulty level for the levelling content is non-existant. I see Jedi Guardians at max level spamming Cyclone Strike as though it's the most efficient way to dispatch enemies. But I digress.

How is it "broken," exactly? It's certainly not overpowered seeing as how operative dps have been a niche, middling choice for practically the entire life of the game. Operative healers have had their heyday but exfiltrate had little to do with that.

 

I'm not in love with exfiltrate. It seems to me their reliance on it rather than on traditional mitigation DCDs has a lot to do with op's apparently permanent status as a niche, 1v1ing, objective-doing, off healer that is always outclassed in trinity team fights by at least a few classes that don't need to spend dozens of GCDs rolling around to not die. But one thing op dps certainly are not is overpowered.

It's broken in the sense that it causes desync and at the time of my first post (back in 2013) it was certainly overpowered. It might not be overpowered today, but it is extremely powerful. Also, what I mean by saying that they put "all eggs in one basket" is that so much of the Operative's survivability is tied to Exfiltrate. The evasion for Concealment is, as you say, very powerful. As is the instant heal for Lethality. And having the knockback to Overload shot tied to Exfiltrate is pretty clunky as well but it kind of works because the cooldown is so short.

OP? depends on a situation. the problem with ops is when skill meets skill and it comes to that clutch moment no class in swtor can cuck an op. in a game with 24 different classes 1 class should not be able to cuck 18 other dps/3tnks.

 

if you have 18 different dps classes, there should be at least 3 specs can can 1v1 (and win) any 1 spec.

Aye. Bit of a tangent, but I agree. I don't find 1v1s all that fun on my Operative because the odds are in my favour. I find it to be much more fun on my Serenity Shadow. Mainly because it's difficult against most classes. Operatives are impossible though, unless they're played by really bad players.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Majspuffen

If they removed roll from ops, the entire class abilities would have to be redesigned. I mean the entire gameplay revolves around roll, lol. Also, roll is fun. It's a fun part of the class.

 

I recognize the issues roll causes, technically and in gameplay for other classes but rather see other changes make the class easier to kill and not so "trolly."

 

As for holotraverse, mad blitz dash or w/e it's called, basically any of the newest movement abilities they should be chucked out the window into the garbage bin. They do not work with the game's system, they are far more glitchy than roll imo, too. Phasewalk works fine, and rarely glitches. The self teleporting abilities are crap though, I agree they should go.

 

A lot of the movement boost abilities and CC immunities have forced the devs to add more CC abilities, it's gotten really bad with over the last 3 years. It used to be lowbies PVP was more fun due to the huge influx of movement/CC/anti-CC abilities aren't in the WZs yet. This just proves sometimes simpler is better and more dynamic.

 

Basically I wish they would revisit the CC, anti-CC defensives some classes get and tone them down big time. The problem is the classes with the most anti CC defensives enjoy the majority of success in PVP. Hence why operatives are on top of the pile when it comes to one on ones and in staying alive. They enjoy lots of mobility as well as ways to deflect CC and damage.

 

I love the excuse, "you just got to root the operative! They are so easy to kill!" lol. Even with this being said, I like roll. I think roll should stay, but ought to be nerfed depending on the spec and the class should have an overhaul of their attacks as well as their defensives to make them more in line with other DPS classes. I wouldn't want to remove such an iconic ability though.

https://i.imgur.com/V0l2ZSW.gifv

• The ability is too strong
  
• The ability looks ridiculous (i.e. poor animation quality)
  
• The ability doesn't work and causes desync
  

 

1. It's not. It has to be timed amazingly well -- which is particularly difficult against multiple opponents. It also costs a full GCD. The op can literally do nothing during this time.

2. It looks fine.

3. It works, but it's a bit wonky sometimes. Once, I accidentally double rolled right of a ledge in the A&E fight. Causes desync? No. Bad connections, lag, stuttering graphics, etc cause desync. Vertical jumps are desyncy as well.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

If they removed roll from ops, the entire class abilities would have to be redesigned. I mean the entire gameplay revolves around roll, lol. Also, roll is fun. It's a fun part of the class.

I can't begrudge you for thinking that it is a fun ability. Fun is subjective. But what you're saying is kind of the reason why I despise it so much. It wasn't part of the original design; it came in 2.0, and since the class has been balanced around it. I don't think any other class has undergone such a drastic transformation in design as the Operative has. Mercenaries got electro net, an ability that forever shifted the meta, but it didn't really impact their gameplay in any other way than them having a really strong new ability.

 

As for holotraverse, mad blitz dash or w/e it's called, basically any of the newest movement abilities they should be chucked out the window into the garbage bin. They do not work with the game's system, they are far more glitchy than roll imo, too. Phasewalk works fine, and rarely glitches. The self teleporting abilities are crap though, I agree they should go.

 

A lot of the movement boost abilities and CC immunities have forced the devs to add more CC abilities, it's gotten really bad with over the last 3 years. It used to be lowbies PVP was more fun due to the huge influx of movement/CC/anti-CC abilities aren't in the WZs yet. This just proves sometimes simpler is better and more dynamic.

Thank you! First time I feel like I have some tailwind in this thread. As it stands, there are so many roots, so many root breakers and so many mobility cooldowns that the pace can be rather jarring. And the engine can't even handle it! So it's not just that the pace feels jarring, the actual gaming experience is jarring. Slowing down the pace of PvP won't automatically ruin the balance. There isn't much of a balance to ruin, and the pace used to be slower anyway.

1. It's not. It has to be timed amazingly well -- which is particularly difficult against multiple opponents. It also costs a full GCD. The op can literally do nothing during this time.

2. It looks fine.

3. It works, but it's a bit wonky sometimes. Once, I accidentally double rolled right of a ledge in the A&E fight. Causes desync? No. Bad connections, lag, stuttering graphics, etc cause desync. Vertical jumps are desyncy as well.

The summary isn't all that relevant anymore, it was mainly relevant for consistency. When I first made this thread in 2013 you could use Exfiltrate 8 times in a row, and it has been toned down since. And Exfiltrate may not cause desync; it may have been poorly phrased by me. But now we're getting at semantics and I think the point still stands: when opponents use Exfiltrate they will often desynchronize, more so than compared to other abilities. Whether this is due to its short CD, or because its design encourages players to use it in a way that makes them desync or whether Satan himself has cursed the ability or not is moot. Desynchronization happens and Exfiltrate is the King of the Hill.

Thank you! First time I feel like I have some tailwind in this thread. As it stands, there are so many roots, so many root breakers and so many mobility cooldowns that the pace can be rather jarring. And the engine can't even handle it! So it's not just that the pace feels jarring, the actual gaming experience is jarring. Slowing down the pace of PvP won't automatically ruin the balance. There isn't much of a balance to ruin, and the pace used to be slower anyway.

 

Well, I have been beating this horse dead for years regarding how the focus in PVP is on CC, anti-CC abilities/defensives, and speed boost abilities. I don't like this meta and used to complain about it ad nauseum. Basically I just stopped because the game tends to go it's own route no matter what I want (or others for that matter.)

 

What exacerbated this new meta of movement-oriented PVP was the addition of even more ridiculous movement abilities like the self portal ones and extreme movement speed boosts like predation and the added utility boost that buffed hydraulic overrides, and others things I can't think of at this moment. I just never felt they were needed in the first place.

 

I think BW devs wanted to add dynamic abilities that were far more imaginative than the original abilities, and that they were. However as fancy as they were and as great as they sounded in theory technically speaking the devs did a poor job meshing these abilities into the game. Whether it's the engine, how they coded the new abilities, I do not know.

 

I just know these new movement buffs to many of the different classes rendered a lot of the maps far less challenging as well as removing challenge in PVP when gifting classes with so many ways to close gaps or to avoid CC with overpowered defensives that make CC useless by enemies.

 

For example, scoring in huttball takes 10 seconds by a coordinated team that uses predation and roll or other movement abilities. Basically the maps were created with specific distances to add challenge to doing the objectives, and the new movement abilities have rendered the maps obsolete in the way they were first designed. I feel the same exists with some classes that are not as blessed as others with awesome movement boosts and/or innate defensives that make them immune to CC, some classes are weak only because they can't match the others when it comes to avoiding CC or moving freely as much as those with immunities.

 

Instead of adding more CC, more anti-CC defensives, or more speed boosts to the classes I wish they'd just tone down the amount of CC in totality. The problem is, many classes have been developed to rely on their superior movement abilities and immunities to CC.

 

I don't play Ops, and although I aint fond of their abilities to troll me around a map indefinitely never dying, I still do like their rolling ability. I think the movement looks neat (unlike you) and i also don't notice it glitching nearly as much as some of the other abilities like holotraverse or phantom stride. These abiltiies hardly ever work properly especially in Huttball where there's lots of different levels in the map.

 

My point here is in an idealistic SWTOR world I just think some of the survivability operatives have should be toned down. I believe their damage output ought to be developed better though. Perhaps a slight increase on their burst, just changes that would make them less hard to kill, yet better at killing.

 

The problem is the playstyle is very unique and probably one of the only ones on SWTOR that make a class iconic in a game if that's possible. Even if they wanted to change the class, I fear they would destroy it if they tried to adjust how roll works or how they mitigate damage etc. So many classes have been neutered by the devs over the years just because some people complained and/or the devs just felt like changing how a class plays.

 

The changes to PTs are awful imo. I played a Pyro PT years ago, yes it was simple but it was fun. They changed it's name to AP PT and then made it's long range attacks short ranged/mid ranged. The classes gameplay was made less varied and simplified and I hated it after that. That's just one example I am familiar with when the devs decide to alter a classes style of play only making it less fun. I would worry they'd do the same for Operatives.

 

What exacerbated this new meta of movement-oriented PVP was the addition of even more ridiculous movement abilities like the self portal ones and extreme movement speed boosts like predation and the added utility boost that buffed hydraulic overrides, and others things I can't think of at this moment. I just never felt they were needed in the first place.

 

I think BW devs wanted to add dynamic abilities that were far more imaginative than the original abilities, and that they were. However as fancy as they were and as great as they sounded in theory technically speaking the devs did a poor job meshing these abilities into the game. Whether it's the engine, how they coded the new abilities, I do not know.

 

I just know these new movement buffs to many of the different classes rendered a lot of the maps far less challenging as well as removing challenge in PVP when gifting classes with so many ways to close gaps or to avoid CC with overpowered defensives that make CC useless by enemies.

 

For example, scoring in huttball takes 10 seconds by a coordinated team that uses predation and roll or other movement abilities. Basically the maps were created with specific distances to add challenge to doing the objectives, and the new movement abilities have rendered the maps obsolete in the way they were first designed. I feel the same exists with some classes that are not as blessed as others with awesome movement boosts and/or innate defensives that make them immune to CC, some classes are weak only because they can't match the others when it comes to avoiding CC or moving freely as much as those with immunities.

 

Phasewalk needs to be nerfed; change my mind.

 

People will disagree with me but I honestly think it's the truth. While most of these abilities do as you say, they aren't as bad as Phasewalk. I won't go into too much detail because I've already exhausted myself trying to explain it over the years why it is not healthy for the game.

See:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=960142

 

With a bit of fine-tuning, I believe these abilities can remain in the game with mostly the same functionality.

 

Exfiltrate: Add a rate limit for resist / dodge chance. "Can only occur every x seconds"

Predation: Remove defense chance, reduce duration, or a reduced movement speed percentage for friendly players

Phasewalk: Reduce range or consume all force upon use

 

I think these 3 are the outliers when it comes to movement ability balance, and they should be revisited after X years of being in the game.

https://i.imgur.com/V0l2ZSW.gifv

 

Sorc lose all force after useing PW.... HAHAHAHAAHAHH oh wait, your serious, let me laugh even harder BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Well, I have been beating this horse dead for years regarding how the focus in PVP is on CC, anti-CC abilities/defensives, and speed boost abilities. I don't like this meta and used to complain about it ad nauseum. Basically I just stopped because the game tends to go it's own route no matter what I want (or others for that matter.)

 

What exacerbated this new meta of movement-oriented PVP was the addition of even more ridiculous movement abilities like the self portal ones and extreme movement speed boosts like predation and the added utility boost that buffed hydraulic overrides, and others things I can't think of at this moment. I just never felt they were needed in the first place.

 

I'm with you on that, 100%. It's been a trend in the MMORPG-industry that when new content is released, new abilities come with it. It's a great opportunity to address certain issues and weaknesses that some classes/specializations may have. However, from what I've observed it feels like the more absent something is the more likely the devs are to overcompensate. Such was the case of the Operative with Exfiltrate. It is my opinion that Imperial Agents and Bounty Hunters should have less mobility than the Force Users due to the game's aesthetic. They have, after all, projectile weapons. Which ties neatly into one of your points:

The changes to PTs are awful imo. I played a Pyro PT years ago, yes it was simple but it was fun. They changed it's name to AP PT and then made it's long range attacks short ranged/mid ranged. The classes gameplay was made less varied and simplified and I hated it after that. That's just one example I am familiar with when the devs decide to alter a classes style of play only making it less fun. I would worry they'd do the same for Operatives.

Instead of capitalizing on the unique aesthetic of these classes they opted to chase MMORPG-stereotypes. The Operative was always a rogue, but they were a rogue with Cover; a rogue with a 30m ranged AoE; a rogue with a 30 meter heavy-hitter. A heavy-hitter, mind, that could be dispelled (unlike these days). There was an interesting dynamic that tied into the aesthetic, but these days it's... you have stealth, high mobility and a lot of crowd control. For concealment the weapon is only a so called "stat stick", which is why I prefer Lethality. When Operatives were complaining about mobility, why not start easy rather than go all in and make them the most mobile class in the game?

 

Blizzard had a severe case of ability bloating in Mists of Pandaria, their fourth expansion. In the subsequent expansion they "pruned" the classes which worked well in some cases and less well in others. It wasn't perfect. But I think that they hit close to the mark in Legion, even though I did not really enjoy that expansion at all. I thought they did a good job with the class fantasies (from an aesthetic point of view; I did not like the forced single-player narrative). I mean, let's make a summary out of the Rogue specializations since Legion:

 

Assassination: the gameplay is centered around DoTs and the aesthetic is that of poison. It's the least mobile out of all three specializations with access to only Shadow Step (think Holotraverse).

 

Outlaw: the gameplay is centered around a mechanic called "Roll the Bones" which will randomly assign one, two or five buffs out of six possible to the player. The player can reroll the buffs in order to pursue a desired combination. The specialization mixes melee attacks and 20yd ranged attacks. The Outlaw is armed with a pistol and has no Shadow Step; instead they have a ground-target ability in the form of a grappling hook with a 1 minute cooldown. The theme revolves around pirates (which was a bit obnoxious in Legion but it was toned down and a bit more generalized in Battle for Azeroth).

 

Subletly: the gameplay revolves around a mechanic called "Shadow Dance" which, for a period of time, gives access to the abilities that can only be used when in stealth. Passive effects (aside from invisibility) are also activated when Shadow Dance is active. The opening attack from stealth can be used from a 20yd distance and it has access two charges of Shadow Step, making it the most mobile spec. The theme? Ninjas, of course.

 

The gameplay of the three specs are very different and heavily revolve around their theme. That's what I want to see with an ability pruning in SWTOR. Perhaps Concealment, the cloak and dagger spec, should have access to some gap closer. And Lethality could have access to more mid-range attacks to make up for their lower mobility. It does look kind of silly that Lethality Operatives should barrage their enemies with a rifle at a point blank distance.

Phasewalk needs to be nerfed; change my mind.

 

I won't change your mind you'll find an odd ally in me regarding this. I don't really think teleportations fits the Star Wars universe. But I couldn't use that as an argument to have it removed as people care more about functionality than aesthetics. However, would anyone play this game if it wasn't Star Wars? Every time they take the liberty to implement something that goes against the rules of the universe, the game dies a little. To some people, a teleport isn't that bad. Somehow there are teleporters on Belsavis, so I guess they do exist. But have we ever seen a Jedi or Sith actually use it? Maybe? I don't know, but I haven't. It feels like using the Force to teleport would be rather groundbreaking.

 

Suppose they were to add new elemental Force powers, like a Force flamethrower, would that not kind of strike an odd chord? Like, maybe this isn't Star Wars?

Sorc lose all force after useing PW.... HAHAHAHAAHAHH oh wait, your serious, let me laugh even harder BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

 

Guess what else Sorcs have that no other class has? Spammable resource regen...

every class has that.

 

jugg: basic attck builds rage

sin: basic attack gives energy chance to charge quickly

pt: multiple passives in rotation keep energy up, plus instant heat down button and if you rotate basic attack it keeps your heat low

merc:^same

operative: again passives and basic attack here and there keep energy regular (plus adrenaline probe

sniper: ^same

mara: same as jugg

 

now, unless you missed the point here, all classes have built in passives in their proper rotation (in fact that force charge build is part of the hlr sorc rotation) but more importantly every class in swtor needs to use basic attack sometimes to regulate their energy... but guess which class doesnt have a no cost basic attack? I'll give a hint, its a sorc.

 

and its not "spammable" every use of it builds a charge up to 4 that reduces force regen time. it also costs a full gcd, only the sorc hlr is supposed to rotate it btw, because if you (I think, im not a sorc hlr) crit innervate it turns into a no stack proc. (it doesnt build the stacks. the nerf stack that keeps dps from spamming it.)

Edited February 7, 2019 by Seterade

every class has that.

 

jugg: basic attck builds rage

sin: basic attack gives energy chance to charge quickly

pt: multiple passives in rotation keep energy up, plus instant heat down button and if you rotate basic attack it keeps your heat low

merc:^same

operative: again passives and basic attack here and there keep energy regular (plus adrenaline probe

sniper: ^same

mara: same as jugg

 

now, unless you missed the point here, all classes have built in passives in their proper rotation (in fact that force charge build is part of the hlr sorc rotation) but more importantly every class in swtor needs to use basic attack sometimes to regulate their energy... but guess which class doesnt have a no cost basic attack? I'll give a hint, its a sorc.

 

and its not "spammable" every use of it builds a charge up to 4 that reduces force regen time. it also costs a full gcd, only the sorc hlr is supposed to rotate it btw, because if you (I think, im not a sorc hlr) crit innervate it turns into a no stack proc. (it doesnt build the stacks. the nerf stack that keeps dps from spamming it.)

 

I guess I should have been more clear.

 

Sorcs have the only spammable (meaning no cooldown, that's what spammable means) resource regen that works by pressing the button and does not require any other condition to be met.

 

Everything that you listed either requires a target to hit or has a lengthy cooldown.

 

Passives don't count as every class has something built into their spec to increase resource regen / decrease consumption.

 

I'm talking about the base ability, by itself, no utility or passive. It is the definition of spammable. You can literally press it every single GCD. I'm not sure why you think that it's not spammable. Is there a cost to using it? Yes, because it is spammable!

 

Does it still give Force past 4 stacks and just refresh the duration? I don't know. I haven't actively played Sorc in a long time.

 

My point being, PW consuming all Force upon use may be the right thing to do with it. Most people use it to LoS behind a wall or pillar to heal up. With this change, you actually have to sacrifice something to teleport 60 meters behind a wall or through a floor or instantly remove focus fire from yourself or ..... etc. etc.

 

In PvP, Sorc healers, specifically, have been dominant over the other 2 for so long it's obnoxious at this point and I think Phasewalk has a lot to do with it. It is leaps and bounds better of a movement / utility ability than what Merc and Op healers get access to.

 

================================================================================

 

Back on topic:

 

I think maybe experimenting by allowing all Op specs to have access to defense / resist chance after using Exfiltrate but attaching a rate limit to it "Can only occur once every X seconds".

 

Predation: Remove defense chance and halve the movement speed bonus to friendly players may be a good place to start with it.