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Operative/Scoundrel Heals are in desperate need of a buff.


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This is from a pvp point of view. Operative healers are lackluster in many areas. The problem with operatives vs the other two classes is that operatives have weak burst healing and terrible survivibilty.

 

1) Operatives have no burst healing outside of stim boost/pugnacity evey 2 minutes (~1min 45 sec with alacrity) and this is only if the following kolto injection/underworld medicine crits. In this high-burst, mercenary-filled meta you've created bioware, tickling our allies with heals over time (hots) just isn't doing the job to keep people alive. Kolto probe/Slow-Release Medpack takes ~17 seconds (with alacrity) at 2 stacks to heal the damage that one dps can do in a single global cooldown. This ability is comparable to sorcerer's bubble, which is one gcd that prevents > 10k damage in a single gcd.

 

Here is an example to illustrate my point. I was in an odessen earlier today and an ally of mine was at low health being attacked by ONE mercenary. I had two stacks of kolto probe/slow-release medpack on him, and was using kolto infusion/Kolto pack on cooldown along with recuperative nanotech/kolto cloud. I was Spamming kolto injection/underworld medicine on this target and following up with a surgical probe/emergency medpack and I could not out heal the mercenaries damage. I used stim boost/pugnacity for an instant emergency heal, which didn't crit, and my target still died. Even during the two times the enemy was hard-stunned and did not break out of it. My target eventually died, I could not heal him above 50% health. I doubt a sorcerer would have had the same problem.

 

Playing an operative healer in solo-ranked is the worst. 90% of the healers you encounter in ranked are sorcerers, who have godly burst-heal with roaming mend and bubble which instantly prevents/heals a high amount of damage. If operative can't keep up with one mercenaries burst damage, then there's no way it can compete with 1 or 2 mercenaries that you encounter (on average) in 3 dps 1 heal ranked games. I've had people leave games and /stuck in the first round as soon as they entered combat merely for seeing that they had an operative and not a sorcerer on their team. Sadly, I don't blame them I don't even know why I bother queuing ranked on my operative healer.

 

2) The second issue with operative healers in pvp is their poor survivability. The other two healers, mercenaries and sorcerers have talents that give a passive 30% damage reduction while stunned. Operatives have no such passive ability, and as consequence they are prone to being chain-stunned and globaled, especially by a coordinated ranked team. Another issue that plague operative's survivability is that unlike the other two healing clases, operatives have no emergency cooldown, that they can use while stunned, which forces the enemy team to stop attacking them. Mercenaries can use responsive safeguards to force the enemy team to switch targets or cc and Sorcerers can use force barrier and are immune to damage. Operatives get destroyed if their stun-breaker is on cooldown. You might argue that "operatives can cloak out and this stops them from getting focused." While that statement is partially true, the cloak out cannot be used while stunned, and in this FOTM Mercenary meta where electronets run rampant, there's a good chance that you'll be netted if you're already white barred and getting tunneled, preventing you from using your cloak out. Yes, sorcerers have the same problem of not being able to barrier while electronetted, however sorcer has the burst heal capability to survive long enough to outlive the net.

 

In conclusion, operative heals suck in pvp, please buff. Give us better survivability and burst healing. If you still don't believe that operative heals suck look at the ranked leaderboards. Currently operative is the LOWEST ranking class of them all! The top operative's ranking is ~500 below the top ranked players from the other advanced classes and ~1500 below the top sorcerer! The highest ranked operative is the ranked 48th over all advanced classes, and the second highest ranked operative is rank 96th. Clearly, there is a problem here.

Edited by Zero_Unlimited
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Hello, i am that operative healer tryhard who is in top1 operative in s-r atm and top1 scoundrel in t-r.

Here are the main problems i have while qing for arenas.

1) Operative burst healing is really good IF YOU NOT GET INTERRUPTED, so in very crit situation when im 100% need to get my cast of, i always get interrupted and my teammate is dying, and i cant do anything to prevent it (no interrupt immunity at all, wtb it on stim boost tho)

2) Survivability. I dont have any problems with it, i can live under focus same amount of time as sorc, so there are no problems with survivng focus (ye need to be very careful with your ccbreaker) just learn to kite and u good.

3) Emmm no other real problems, i lose in t-r games only because enemy team rotate x4 interupts on my single target healz (Kolto injection/Kolto infusion)

 

So the real problem for me is that i always get interrupted in critical situation and cant cast **** (had t-r game when enemy team interrupted x6 my single target healz in a row(x4 interrrupts + 2 hardstuns), and we died cuz i just couldnt heal ppl, while sorc heal could just use MLG NO SCOPE 360 INSTANT roaming mend with x4 20k crit healz kappa, and i dont even mention polarity shift they have)

 

#nerfsorchealers, tbh im just salty that sorcs so easy to play and they best healers in arenas in same time.

In 8v8 good operative healer way more usefull than sorc.

 

P.S Sorry for pleb english xd

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Operatives have always been a very strong class. The only thing that truly needs change is the fact they have literally no interrupt immunity. This wasn't a big deal in 3.0 where the meta was cleave and you kept everyone up with HoTs; you really never needed to cast heal. After 4.0 things changed, now you are forced to cast heal constantly which makes interrupts hurt a lot. In group rank this gimp makes them unplayable vs. a competitive team who rotates interrupts 3-4 constantly while constantly mezing/hardstunning on CD. Operative in enjoyable and strong till every cast heal gets interrupted and you aren't able to get a heal off for 50% of the game. There is literally nothing in an Operative play book that helps in this situation.

 

If the developers cared they could just remove interrupt immunity from Sorcs (so they could at least be on the same playing field; they really don't need it anymore) or give an ability/utility that allows operative healers to have interrupt immunity. If they really don't think its necessary please come do group ranked verse competitive players who rotate interrupts healing on an Operative healer. I can't stress how not fun it is to sit through white bar after white bar with interrupts rotated on you as a Operative. The healer in broken at that point.

 

In other categorizes like survivabilty or healing in general they are balanced. There are slightly strengths and weaknesses to their abilities but its not game breaking like no interrupt immunity is.

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The problem is that you're comparing yourself to mercs and heal sorcs, which are 2/3 of the fotm trifecta. Priority should be on nerfing mercs, heal sorcs, and eng snipers first.

 

do you really think "nerf" a class is the right answer. I dont' think it ever is...why not bring up the classes rather than being negative with nerfs.

 

nobody likes nerfs. nobody likes havign to grind to GC 300+ and then have that class "nerfed"

 

truly think about what you are asking for and if it's a good user experience that will keep players playing the game.

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do you really think "nerf" a class is the right answer. I dont' think it ever is...why not bring up the classes rather than being negative with nerfs.

 

nobody likes nerfs. nobody likes havign to grind to GC 300+ and then have that class "nerfed"

 

truly think about what you are asking for and if it's a good user experience that will keep players playing the game.

 

Tbh, looking at the dmg meta right now, I feel like sorc and merc (apart from def) heals are balanced and the op is underpowered. You simply cannot heal through the single target burst, even less so if you are interrupted and your ****** defense can't be compensated by kiting, since melees right now have 100000 gap closers, slows and roots to prevent you from rolling, not to mention how incredibly effective e-net and sniper area ''move with 1 cm/s'' crap are at keeping you where you are, while you recieve the burst of your short life.

 

It's not about the healing itself, it's okay how it is (maybe a little more st heals), it's about survivability, since sniper, merc, mara can just rape you.

Edited by aristrokratie
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Tbh, looking at the dmg meta right now, I feel like sorc and merc (apart from def) heals are balanced and the op is underpowered. You simply cannot heal through the single target burst, even less so if you are interrupted and your ****** defense can't be compensated by kiting, since melees right now have 100000 gap closers, slows and roots to prevent you from rolling, not to mention how incredibly effective e-net and sniper area ''move with 1 cm/s'' crap are at keeping you where you are, while you recieve the burst of your short life.

 

It's not about the healing itself, it's okay how it is (maybe a little more st heals), it's about survivability, since sniper, merc, mara can just rape you.

 

As an Operative you shouldn't be dying to anything ranged. You just stand by LoS and you wont be killed by range just like any other healer. Operative are more depended on good positioning than a sorc or merc since your DCDs don't give you another life if you get caught out. Operative DCDs aren't underpowered they are fair to the class. The only reason Sorcs feel stronger is because their heals mechanically are just better for PvP because they have great AoE/single target burst as well as interrupt immunity. If their heals didn't work the way they do in PvP, trust me their defensive would feel like trash.

 

I barely die on my Operative healing you just need to go full defensive in your utility tree.

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As an Operative you shouldn't be dying to anything ranged. You just stand by LoS and you wont be killed by range just like any other healer. Operative are more depended on good positioning than a sorc or merc since your DCDs don't give you another life if you get caught out. Operative DCDs aren't underpowered they are fair to the class. The only reason Sorcs feel stronger is because their heals mechanically are just better for PvP because they have great AoE/single target burst as well as interrupt immunity. If their heals didn't work the way they do in PvP, trust me their defensive would feel like trash.

 

I barely die on my Operative healing you just need to go full defensive in your utility tree.

 

Dying to ranged is sadly reality now, this has been established by the sniper/merc ultra slow meta (aoe field, 70% slow on unload).

Kiting around a pillar is simply impossible if you have to do that with 30% movement speed.

Funnily, rolling outside it often results in rubberbanding, so often times, if the pillar is not directly in front of you, you shouldn't even bother anyway, if you roll out, gg you've made the sniper waste a gcd on placing his garbage aoe under your feet again, while others still can attack you or you simply stand there and take the hits.

Using your roll twice to get away can put you into a dangereous position from which you might not be able to walk into healing los quickly enough to save someone from dying.

Surely, you can play this game for some time, but you will only delay your death (not implying a sniper or merc can easily solokill ophealers, but you will still have a hard time kiting one of those classes, rip if there's a second competent dps focusing, interrupting and stunning you). The fun kicks in when you have to also keep other people alive at the same time ;).

 

Kiting is the only thing that we could do to stay alive under pressure, this is now really hard to do due to an excessive amount of slows and roots, only becoming more prominent every new expansion.

The damage marauders can dish out while passively reducing your healing and sticking to you butt like glue is also something you can't ignore. I could kite them for quite some time but that's of no use if your team dies. You yourself acknkowledged that the ops inability to keep up single targets while under pressure or yourself while kiting is a problem!

 

5.0 Operative/Scoundrel Healers PvP – What I like to See

[...] By only giving us the only option which is to stand still and cast heal to “burst” a target up who is low, it puts us in an extreme disadvantage compared to other healing classes because we are the only class which doesn’t have interrupt immunity. This again, wasn’t an issue pre-3.0 because if you had good awareness and HoT management you can keep up HoTs through CC rotations on yourself. Because of how good HoTs were pre-3.0 this took out the blow of having to catch up in HPS out of CC since your HoTs healed for a higher percent based players HP pool and Surgical/Emergency Medpac healing was impactful enough to save targets who were below 30%. Having to stand still and cast healing repeatably puts us in a position where we are easily interrupted since our Injection/Underworld Medicine is an atrociously long cast. What if you are interrupted? Then what? The target dies (just imagine if you are the only healer in the warzone and have to burst heal 7 targets, good luck). There is literally nothing in an Operative/Scoundrel utilities or abilities that can helps in this situation.

 

I know what you’re thinking. What about Stim boost? You can get a free instant cast Injection/Underworld Medicine. This doesn’t even come close to the closing the gushing wound that is our burst healing capability. Cool, an ability that can heal for 6K-20K [now 8- 30k] every couple of minutes which mitigates maybe 1 burst ability (MAYBE). THIS. IS. NOT. ENOUGH.

 

Thanks.

I am sorry to bring this monstrosity from the graveyard of ageold posts but nothing has changed since then! Where's the Hottie that critically looked at the ops state instead of instantly whiteknighting and dismissing people voicing honest criticism?

 

Don't misunderstand me, it's adorable how you always rush in and give tips on how not to suck. (If I were a new player, crying about how the mean dot powertech kills me again and again, it would be much appreciated!:p)

This is not about warzones.

 

If you still play solo as an operative (haven't checked your stream for quite a while) you will know that ops being equally viable as sorcs and mercs is simply not true. I hate to bring leaderboards into this discussion (since effort, q syncing etc. can really distort rating~skill ratio), but #1 sorcheal is at 4269 and #1 ophealer at 2516 (funfact, lowest highest class rating), a discrepancy as big as this cannot be ignored.

Our healing only works in combination with a decent tank and a group that peels for you during e-net and stunlock and knows their defensive cooldowns really well.

You also have to be pretty lucky with enemy interrupts to keep the heals rolling or people will die.

 

All those restrictions don't apply as harshly to the sorc and to some extent the merchealer.

 

Hottie, I know you hate it when people call the operative underpowered, you are very humble in that regard, telling people you yourself are doing great, not because an underperforming class works well with your skill, but because the class is fine.

My perspective on this issue, in order to determine whether a class is under or overpowered, is quite straight forward.

 

Does it perform well on its own?

 

The answer for the operative is clearly no, since many factor have to be in your favor in order to achieve results comparable to sorcerer and mercenary healers. It is not the question of potential power (the op has very powerful healing) but average performance under pressure, and in that regard it is lacking.

 

Operative works very well for regs since you can just outplay the bads and is perfectly viable for team ranked when playing with a competent group;

The healing potetial of this class is not something that can be laughed at, but once you are on your own things can get much much uglier. I have been playing op and sorchealer since 1.2, they both had their ups and downs, but they are far from being equally viable and effective right now.

 

The real question is, wheter ops are UP or sorcs and (mercheals to a somewhat lesser extent) are OP. Looking at the current anti movement heavy burst meta, I doubt that sorcs are that op.

Edited by aristrokratie
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do you really think "nerf" a class is the right answer. I dont' think it ever is...why not bring up the classes rather than being negative with nerfs.

 

nobody likes nerfs. nobody likes havign to grind to GC 300+ and then have that class "nerfed"

 

truly think about what you are asking for and if it's a good user experience that will keep players playing the game.

 

Truly think about whether or not having healers with an endless supply of defensive cooldowns is a good thing.

 

Trying to kill a good operative can get annoying. Trying to kill a good Sorc/Merc can get miserable. Nerfing the correct classes is a better alternative to making the PvP experience more miserable.

Edited by Eli_Porter
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what no, there more annoying to kill then sorcs, the dont need buffs of any kind to heals, heals as it is pvp way over tunned to point the the bad healers annoyying to kill and good ones and almost impossible to kill.

 

I still think all HEAL SKILL'S should be tied to heal spec and taunt and guard tied to tank spec

Edited by Kyuuu
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do you really think "nerf" a class is the right answer. I dont' think it ever is...why not bring up the classes rather than being negative with nerfs.

 

nobody likes nerfs. nobody likes havign to grind to GC 300+ and then have that class "nerfed"

 

truly think about what you are asking for and if it's a good user experience that will keep players playing the game.

 

No one likes power creep either. Compare average class survivability from 2.0 until now. It's gone way up. Healing output has gone way up due to added tools for uptime (you have more defensive capability so you can facetank to hardcast more, you have more mobility so you can have greater output while kiting). All this has lead to a greater frequency of stalemates (One of the biggest complaints among group ranked players is that too many games go to acid. No one in regs likes how 1 semi-competent healer with guard can turn a team into a full blown turtle). Instead of constantly rebuffing everything to the highest standard, Bioware needs to learn to take things away. Heck, iirc a couple months ago Caprica made a post about how 8v8 ranked just would never work in todays meta simply due to how much power creep has happened.

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Snip.

 

Opinions change even mine. The class is strong till lack of interrupt immunity comes into play. Everytime I struggle on the class I feel like a change in giving the class interrupt immunity could fix it. It will still be one of the hardest classes to play but if played well you can have a lot of success with it.

 

I literally have 0 issues now that I am almost fully geared. I would always argue that the class is balanced. It has strengths and weaknesses as EVERY class should. The ONLY weakness that is game breaking in solo ranked/group ranked is interrupt immunity; that is it. You need to stop comparing it to Sorcs/Mercs. Both of these classes are overtunned, that's why Operatives feel "weak" to you.

 

If you are struggling that much to write a post you are playing the class wrong 5.1. It really isn't as bad as you make it out to be by a long shot.

Edited by kissingaiur
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I strongly disagree with those of you who are saying that it's unfair to compare operative healer to merc and sorc healers "because those classes are op," when those are the only other two healing classes in the game. If i can't compare operative healers to another healer then what can I compare it to? If the answer is "nothing" then something is obviously wrong with class balance when two healing classes are comparable and the third one isn't. Edited by Zero_Unlimited
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I strongly disagree with those of you who are saying that it's unfair to compare operative healer to merc and sorc healers "because those classes are op," when those are the only other two healing classes in the game. If i can't compare operative healers to another healer then what can I compare it to? If the answer is "nothing" then something is obviously wrong with class balance when two healing classes are comparable and the third one isn't.

 

I would disagree with you disagreeing. Something can be balanced while other classes are ovetunned. Operative healers right now are fair.

 

Comparing them merc defensively is hilarious to me in the first place. They have been aruguably the worst pvp healer since their big nerf during the beginning of swtor (I wasn't around then but they use to be the best healer back in the day). Since than with their inability to heal on the move, mixed in with them needing to cast heal every almost every ability makes them extremely disadvantage in PvP. Even with mercs new "buffs" their healing hasn't been touched so they are still the worst pvp healer. Yah their dcds are insane right now but you wouldn't ever pick them up for solo ranked or group ranked, ever.

 

Comparing them to sorcs? Sorcs literally perfect pvp healer, not because of their hps but how their healing works mechically. They went from being a purely cast healer in 2.0-pre 4.0 to doing everything on the move. They are in the position operatives were in when they were op in 2.0. These changes don't make operatives a worse class it makes sorcs the more optimal choice in PvP.

 

That's why many want operatives to have interupt immunity skill. Since the devs want operatives to cast heal they need to give us access to interrupt immunity. Or remove it from sorcs since majority of their heals is instant and on the move there is no need for their to be immune to interrupts because unlike 2.0 sorcs they aren't standing in one position spamming cast heals.

 

Operatives are still the best cleave healer in the game and their burst is great till you get constantly cc and locked out of cast heals. There is nothing wrong with the class but a shift in playstyle which the devs need to counter balance slightly.

Edited by kissingaiur
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Having played all 3 healers in pvp I will agree that operatives need more interrupt immunity now that it has been pointed out. As far as everything else goes Hottie we'll just have to agree to disagree. "Balance" is relative term that's very definition implies that one class should not excel at something where other classes fail, only their styles of play should differ. I'm not sure we both agree on that definition. It seems like you have a rock-paper-scissors idea of how classes in an MMO should work. There's nothing wrong with that idea, many would agree with it. All I want is for classes to be rebalanced every 2-3 months instead of every year or longer. It's not "Flavor of the Month" with swtor, it's "Flavor of the Year". Edited by Zero_Unlimited
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  • 2 weeks later...

Whoever said scoundrel heals are in a good place is delusional.....

 

Whoever says, stop comparing scoundrel to the other 2 healing classes, that's just dumb. You have no choice but to compare it to the other classes. You have 3 options to heal and if you are wanting to enter the top tier of whatever you are doing, pve or pvp, don't bother with a scoundrel at the moment, because it needs to be fixed. If you are just wanting to play casually and have some fun, go for it. Scoundrel healing is fun.

 

I say this because they need some love. They are the forgotten son.... many moons ago, they were op. So mando and sage were buffed and scoundrel was pushed to the side. Now it's time for some love. Not a lot, just some QoL things. Anyone who says otherwise, can go enjoy there participation ribbon. But as they are, there is no reason to bring a scoundrel to anything. The other 2 classes can do everything the scoundrel can do but better.

 

1 thing i can't get my head around, is why the other 2 classes heals became "smart" but scoundrel was left out, many patches ago. Why is kotlo cloud the last "dumb" heal of the game? Doesn't make any sense. This is an easy fix and it would make a significant difference. Make it "smart". Also making it worthy of a 6 piece set bonus would be nice. Either hitting harder or maybe working with any character with slow release medpac and doubling the effect for an example.... that wouldn't make it op but you could strategically place your slow release for combination with kolto cloud to help mediate the lack of burst we have.

 

Scoundrels used to be the most mobile healers of the game. No they are the least mobile...... Unfair playing field and needs to be fixed. Any significant heal with a scoundrel, is a cast.. Bad for pve, bad for pvp. Nothing major, just change one to even the playing field.... Kolto wave or kolto pack changed to instant. Not op, just even.

 

As far as survivability goes, there is a million things you could change to help the problem. Thing is, with no burst heals the scoundrel starts behind the eight ball. We do have a few tricks up our sleeves but needs a significant buff to compete with the other healers who have stupidly insane survivability mixed with burst.......

 

Somebody mentioned nerf the other classes and don't touch scoundrel.... Given the track record with the game, we have a better chance of fixing 1 class, than purposely breaking 2 classes to bring them back into line.

 

Some quick QoL things for the scoundrel and they can at lease compete again.

 

Rant over.

 

(Bored with mando/sage healing)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I play a lot of operative healing in pvp and pve and I believe the overall healing output is right in line of what a healer class should be at.

 

The issue is just how mechanically the class is played atm. We require a lot of casting and tons of babying of Koltos Probes, which is the hugest annoyance IMO. If they reworked Kolto Probes in a way that didn't require so much babying and some way to have stun immunity (maybe have it built into Pugnacity?) then I think the class will be just right for pvp.

 

The healing output is there, its just five times as more work to keep up with the lolsorcs.

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  • 1 year later...

Indeed its very frustrating that my full 248 op struggle to heal players ons PVP that my 236 sorc/merc heal do it so easily.

On PVE, my operative cannot save tank mistakes and carry low geared folks on some hard Master Modes FP, but my other two 236/240 can. Its sad that a funny class like op its broken like that.

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  • 3 months later...

I'm pumping out about 4 million in heals (sometimes more), with about 2 million at worst in PvP. I've only seen Sorc's pop out higher numbers (or maybe I just get paired with bad healers?). We do more than enough, and we have a lot of decent HoT's that compliment our AoE and single target heals. I don't really see a problem.

 

As for survivability, it's not uncommon for me to end a PvP match with zero deaths. We have plenty of survivability if you play the class properly.

 

PvE is pretty easy for me, even on Master mode FP's. I have extremely high crit, and a decent amount of alacrity, so I can pump out some pretty high single target heals in a row if needed, and use AoE/HoT's with some instant cast heals in the mix during trash fights.

Edited by TrooperRCH
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  • 6 months later...

Sry to necro - I´m bored :)

 

I love healing and I tried all 3 healing classes.

Tried mando and sorc. Mando is great for 8-16 man raids and sorc for everything.

 

Then I tried operative: just played a vet FP and man I hate this kolto probe babying, plus they look ugly.

I know they are the best for 16 man operations but meh. I think they could be really elegant and great healers but then you have that green stuff all over your group.

 

Please make the kolto probe invisible and make the duration longer or smart. That would be great :)

 

Edit: I don´t think they need a buff - they have the highest numbers, but that doesn´t matter if the tank dies :)

The should be reworked a bit - less numbers - more fun playing it.

Edited by Ahwassa
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  • 2 weeks later...
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