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(Temporary) Ideal Tank Stats


KeyboardNinja

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Thank you again for your hard work!

 

Rather than create another thread right now I'll just post the Tanking Min/Max spreadsheet I've made here. The Values tab has all of the information saved from KBN's original post.

SWTOR Tanking Min/Max and Augment Spreadsheet

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Thank you again for your hard work!

 

Rather than create another thread right now I'll just post the Tanking Min/Max spreadsheet I've made here. The Values tab has all of the information saved from KBN's original post.

SWTOR Tanking Min/Max and Augment Spreadsheet

 

You sir are a prince among men! Brilliant work!!!

Edited by Naritara
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#1 Malaphar : M/R+K/E: 52,6%

F/T+K/E: 0%

F/T+I/E: 47.4%

 

#2 Sword Squadron : M/R+K/E: 51,5%

F/T+K/E: 48,5%

F/T+I/E: 0%

 

#1 Sparky :

M/R+K/E : 72,2%

F/T+K/E : 0%

F/T+I/E : 27,8%

 

#2 Bulo : M/R+K/E: 74,4%

F/T+K/E: 14,1%

F/T+I/E: 11,5%

 

#3 Torque : M/R+K/E: 65,6%

F/T+K/E: 10,4% <depends on how quickly your dps focus the turrets on the consoles>

F/T+I/E: 25%

 

#4 Master/Blaster : M/R+K/E : 54,1%

F/T+K/E : 29.9%

F/T+I/E : 15,9%

 

Those Numbers are from Hardmodes.

 

Thanks for posting these man! Will really help with optimising for particular boss fights.

 

@KBN How do you go about calculating the ideal stat distribution after you have the damage types worked out for each of the bosses? Is it a complicated calculation?

Edited by Horano_Heresy
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Thank you again for your hard work!

 

Rather than create another thread right now I'll just post the Tanking Min/Max spreadsheet I've made here. The Values tab has all of the information saved from KBN's original post.

SWTOR Tanking Min/Max and Augment Spreadsheet

 

I was playing around with your spread sheet adjusting the stats to my gear when I noticed it was telling me to use 15 Augments. This obviously is an error. So I looked back at your original sheet and saw that on yours it's telling you to use 14 like it's suppose to. So I started playing around with the numbers again on my copy (just the numbers in the light yellow area no equations or any thing like that) and for some reason it's calculating the stim as an extra gear slot for an augment which is why it's telling me 15 augments instead of 14.

 

Any idea why this is changing like this?

Edited by XisscVekno
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@KBN How do you go about calculating the ideal stat distribution after you have the damage types worked out for each of the bosses? Is it a complicated calculation?

 

Quite. I basically use this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1679797/SWTOR/mitigation.nb Generating the tables usually takes about 20-30 minutes on my laptop. The graphs require a few hours.

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I'm really frustrated with the gearing/stat priority of a Jugg Tank at lvl 60. Please advise.

 

My stats are: Def - 1347; Shield - 1073; Absorb - 716

 

I find it impossible to decrease my shield in favor or Absorb or Defense. Also, all the set gear from SM Ops significantly reduce my Endurance from various levels of Comm gear (Yes, they have better mitigation). I'm just having a hard time feeling like I have enough Endurance and getting to my desired Ideal Tank Stat Priority that KBN lays out.

 

Ugh.

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As someone who regularly heals...

 

lower your endurance, raise your tank-stats.

 

For (almost) any fight, it is totally meaningless if you got... say 50K or 55K hp.

 

You tank stats matter. They decide, if you take enough damage out of the fight to enable the healers to keep you and the OP alive.

Hitpoints only matter on very, very rare occasions/fights.

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Shield is basically a constant over all the enhancements so you want to make sure you have the lower endurance enhancements/mods/implants/ears in order to boost your def/abs. You get boosted endurance (over dps/heals) based on the armorings you'll be using. Then you'll also have LOTS of mitigation stats (which are tons more important than endurance). Stay far away from the lettered mods, and you are better off with the crafted 186 Sturdiness/Immunity enhancements than ANY of the comms gear enhancements.

 

Once you have all that lined up, you should find that your shield stats can be bolstered more than enough with augments (should you need).

 

Getting your mitigation stats is always a balancing act when you get new gear. take the time to write out the numbers (I use a no-frills spreadsheet) that you currently have, see where you should be, see the difference, and play with the numbers on your possible gear choices.

Edited by TemptsFate
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I find it impossible to decrease my shield in favor or Absorb or Defense. Also, all the set gear from SM Ops significantly reduce my Endurance from various levels of Comm gear (Yes, they have better mitigation). I'm just having a hard time feeling like I have enough Endurance and getting to my desired Ideal Tank Stat Priority that KBN lays out.
Yeah, unfortunately you can't ditch shield; you have to use augments to get the other two up instead.

 

And if you want more Endurance, you can use the comm "B" mods, which cost give you 2 End for 1 Def/Abs+1 Mainstat, while keeping the ops enhancements.

Edited by flem
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As someone who regularly heals...

 

lower your endurance, raise your tank-stats.

 

For (almost) any fight, it is totally meaningless if you got... say 50K or 55K hp.

 

You tank stats matter. They decide, if you take enough damage out of the fight to enable the healers to keep you and the OP alive.

Hitpoints only matter on very, very rare occasions/fights.

 

I have to disagree with you: In current content, endurance is actually quite a good stat to have a little bit of. The two hardest bosses in heroic do a lot of elemental/internal damage, spiking up to 80% in some phases. The second reason is that a lot of the bosses seem to have way more damage spikes than the bosses in the previous content. having another 5 to 10k life actually really makes a difference because it gives the healers an additional second or two to get you back to safety.

 

That said, I am currently having a stat budget of 3.7k and roughly 55k health. Of course stacking health to absurde levels isn't the way to go either but b-mods and comms implants + earpiece is a solid way to gear up for revan or coratanni.

 

WIth health being a more desirable stat than it used to be it might even be feasible to put comms enhancements into your gear IF they're of a higher item level than your sturdiness/immunity enhancements,

Edited by _nace_
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I have to disagree with you: In current content, endurance is actually quite a good stat to have a little bit of. The two hardest bosses in heroic do a lot of elemental/internal damage, spiking up to 80% in some phases. The second reason is that a lot of the bosses seem to have way more damage spikes than the bosses in the previous content. having another 5 to 10k life actually really makes a difference because it gives the healers an additional second or two to get you back to safety.

 

That said, I am currently having a stat budget of 3.7k and roughly 55k health. Of course stacking health to absurde levels isn't the way to go either but b-mods and comms implants + earpiece is a solid way to gear up for revan or coratanni.

 

WIth health being a more desirable stat than it used to be it might even be feasible to put comms enhancements into your gear IF they're of a higher item level than your sturdiness/immunity enhancements,

 

 

/sign

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Prior to the nuking of these forums, KBN started a thread on trying to determine the actual optimal health that needs to be considered alongside optimizing for mitigation -- the hand-waved "50kish" number that some people now take as gospel before preaching about "maximum mitigation is the only way to go". Any chance we can get that thread resurrected also?

 

The Zorz guys got a lot of flack on Dulfy.net for their target of having about 57k using B mods (I believe "bag-o-hitpoints tank" was one of the more repeatable things they were called) to cover the process of actually learning the fights and allowing for mistakes. Working on the HM ops myself, I find that it's rare that it's the steady DtPS that's killing me, more the big hits that amount to 30-40k in a couple of seconds because the healers are distracted -- maximum mitigation optimization wouldn't save me from that, but 2-3k more health might.

Edited by Ancaglon
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Prior to the nuking of these forums, KBN started a thread on trying to determine the actual optimal health that needs to be considered alongside optimizing for mitigation -- the hand-waved "50kish" number that some people now take as gospel before preaching about "maximum mitigation is the only way to go". Any chance we can get that thread resurrected also?

 

The Zorz guys got a lot of flack on Dulfy.net for their target of having about 57k using B mods (I believe "bag-o-hitpoints tank" was one of the more repeatable things they were called) to cover the process of actually learning the fights and allowing for mistakes. Working on the HM ops myself, I find that it's rare that it's the steady DtPS that's killing me, more the big hits that amount to 30-40k in a couple of seconds because the healers are distracted -- maximum mitigation optimization wouldn't save me from that, but 2-3k more health might.

 

Both endbosses hitting pretty hard and a lot of the damage is ele/int, so a little more hp does not suffer that much.

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Hi! Here is the original post from KeyboardNinja. Can't get the spoilers back, but see #1 for tables.

---------------------------------------------

 

Update (Mar 12): Kinetic Bulwark/Dark Bulwark calculation has been revised and made much more accurate (the value is slightly lower than assumed; special thanks to dipstik!). Self-heal contribution to survivability has been corrected to post-mitigation (rather than pre-mit, as before). Self-healing is no longer overvalued on bosses with single-swap mechanics. Corrupter Zero's Sweeping Slash has been corrected and is now considered a force/tech attack. Defense minima for PvP gear are now based on Obroan rather than Dread Forged.

 

Update (Dec 26): Relics are now part of the fundamental calculation; you no longer need to include them in your stat budget! Riot Gas has been dropped from the Vanguard bonuses (reasoning long and dull). Defense minima have been reworked, resolving a serious bug where vanguard minima were underestimated while shadow minima were overestimated.

 

---

 

Using a slightly different approach from dipstik, I modeled the three defensive stats against each other and computed optimal distributions at various stat budgets from 600 to 5000 (for reference, augmented Arkanian has a stat budget of 2181; Dread Forged a stat budget of 2721). These stat values should provide accurate itemization targets for guardians and vanguards, and mostly accurate targets for shadows (Endurance is not considered here, which is a significant omission where shadows are concerned).

 

The fundamental function that I maximized was as follows:

 

mrke * (6/23) * (1 - (1 - defense[x*a + relic] + 0.5*0.1)*(1 - (1 - crit)*shield[x*b]*absorb[x*c])) + mrke * (1 - 6/23) * (1 - (1 - defense[x*a] + 0.5*0.1)*(1 - (1 - crit)*shield[x*b]*absorb[x*c])) + ftke*(1 - (1 - resist)(1 - (1 - crit)*shield[x*b]*absorb[x*c])) (where a + b + c = 1 and a,b,c >= 0)

 

(note: m/r attacks are assumed to have 100% accuracy. low-accuracy attacks are modeled via a defense addend of 5%. bosses cannot crit)

 

The constants in this equation, mrke and ftke, are the weighted algebraic mean computed damage ratios in Dread Fortress or Dread Palace. The damage ratios are sufficiently different between these operations as to merit separate stat distributions (which are given below). Note: if you're running the old operations (S&V or TfB), you can still use these distributions. To optimize for S&V, use the values from Dread Fortress. Likewise, to optimize for TfB, use the values for Dread Palace. The damage distributions are fairly close between the respective operations, or at least close enough that it doesn't matter.

 

Shield, defense and absorb ratings are all constrained to within ranges as a function of your current stat budget. These ranges were computed by elidion in an attempt to accurately approximate the discrete itemization minima provided by BiS ear, implants and enhancements for all classes. Note that these minima are actually a function of the class in question, since the BiS implants for shadows carry absorb, while vanguards and guardians get defense.

 

With these calculations, I generated a set of realistic (achievable with itemization) target ratings for defense/shield/absorb at all stat budgets 600-5000. Additionally, I plotted the ideal stat distributions for all three tanks. Enjoy!

 

Using The Tables

 

To determine your target itemization, add up the defense, shield and absorb ratings from your character sheet including stim. This is your current stat budget. Using this, find the nearest entry in the appropriate table below for your class and stat budget. Your goal is to get your defense, shield and absorb rating as close to these recommended values as possible by swapping mods, enhancements and augments. This will maximize your achievable mitigation from defensive stats.

 

Note that these tables were all generated assuming use of the best in slot relic types: Reactive Warding and Fortunate Redoubt. These tables are not fully accurate with other relic combinations! They will be close, but not quite correct. Because these relics are included in the optimization process, there is no need to consider the relic proc value in your stat budget (as was previously required). Simply use your character sheet values; no need to calculate!

 

As an example, imagine that my shadow's character sheet shows a defense value of 520, a shield value of 1100, and an absorb value of 900 (with stim activated). Thus, my total stat budget is 520 + 1100 + 900 = 2520. Rounding to the nearest value in the "Average" table below for shadows, we find the following entry:

 

{2500,{defense->455,shield->863,absorb->1182}}

 

My current defense rating is 520, which is too high by 65 (almost exactly 1 mod). My shield rating is 1100, which is too high by 237. Since the only way to increase shield rating over the minimum is to stack shield augments, this should be a very easy problem to fix. Finally, my absorb rating is 900, which is too low by a whopping 282 points. If I swap one mod from defense to absorb, and then swap all seven of my shield augments to absorb, I should be just about perfect. I'll end up a little low on defense and a little high on absorb, but it should be good enough. In most cases, it is impossible to achieve precisely the optimal stat ratings. Just get as close as you can.

 

Average

 

M/R+K/E: 71.7760%

F/T+K/E: 24.3432%

F/T+I/E: 3.8806%

DtPS: 6336.47

 

For those who don't want to carry around two gear sets…

 

Shadow

Graph

 

Guardian

Graph

 

Vanguard

Graph

 

Dread Fortress

 

M/R+K/E: 74.6510%

F/T+K/E: 20.4436%

F/T+I/E: 4.9040%

DtPS: 5987.66

 

Shadow

Graph

 

Guardian

Graph

 

Vanguard

Graph

 

Dread Palace

 

M/R+K/E: 68.5082%

F/T+K/E: 28.7756%

F/T+I/E: 2.7163%

DtPS: 6685.28

 

Shadow

Graph

 

Guardian

Graph

 

Vanguard

Graph

 

PvP

 

M/R+K/E: 30.6%

F/T+K/E: 54.1%

F/T+I/E: 15.3%

DtPS: 7000

These numbers are based on a spreadsheet tabulated by Ilmar. As he is a Scoundrel DPS and not a tank, the exact percentages are going to be a bit different for tanking. However, these still represent the most authoritative values we have. Assuming a 25% natural crit chance (on average) and adding the auto-crit attacks found in Ilmar's spreadsheet, we assume a 33.25% crit rate overall (thus reducing the value of shield). The 7k DtPS value roughly approximates two geared DPS focus firing with all cooldowns available over a span of roughly 12 seconds. Average values over an entire match are clearly much lower than this, but also much less interesting since the healer (and tank) is primarily concerned with who is being bursted and by how much.

 

Shadow

Graph

 

Guardian

Graph

 

Vanguard

Graph

 

 

One somewhat hilarious thing you will notice in both the stat budgets and the graphs is that the ideal defense rating actually decreases as your stat budget increases at a certain point. This is true for shadows and vanguards, but vanguards show the most precipitous drop. This is not a typo or a mistake, and has been verified formally and justified with informal arguments. It does make sense from a mathematical standpoint, but it's a little bizarre. Just go with it. :-)

 

For reference, this is the Mathematica notebook used to generate this post.

 

Overall Survivability

 

Note This section previously counted self-healing pre-mitigation. This is inaccurate, as any self-healing mechanic is applied to damage taken post-mitigation. Thus, self-healing mechanics were previously undervalued by a substantial margin. This error has been corrected, resulting in a slightly different balance picture than before.

 

What follows is the comparative tank survivability including all buffs, damage and self-heals in each operation (higher is better). In other words, you should be able to predict your net external healing required by multiplying an operation's DtPS by 1 - # where "#" is the survivability value from below. For PvE survivability, I'm assuming full 78 armorings and a stat budget of 2721 for each tank (in other words, full min-maxed Dread Forged). For PvP survivability, I'm assuming full min-maxed Obroan with maxed augments and a stim. Expertise is ignored as it only functions to cancel out the damage bonuses from another max-geared player.

 

Defensive cooldowns are not included in the calculation!

 

Dread Fortress

 

Shadow: 73.4956%

Guardian: 74.4393%

Guardian (hybrid): 75.1821%

Vanguard: 72.8545%

 

 

Dread Palace

 

Shadow: 73.3933%

Guardian: 74.1169%

Guardian (hybrid): 74.9887%

Vanguard: 73.1754%

 

 

PvP

 

Shadow: 57.4008%

Guardian: 58.0441%

Guardian (hybrid): 58.0374%

Vanguard: 58.1033%

 

 

Or, if you prefer the graphical approach, here is what the relative balance looks like. Note that this is a relative graph, meaning that the best tank for a given piece of content is taken to be 1, and all other tanks are a percentage of that value. If all tanks are balanced to within 5%, then all of these bars should be at 0.95 or higher.

 

Overall, balance is surprisingly tight. Guardians sit on top for current content because of how low damage levels are and the non-scaling nature of self-healing mechanics. Increasing boss damage by 15-20% (generally what is seen in Nightmare Mode) puts all three of the tanks on almost exactly even footing. Shadows are about 1.5% behind Guardians due to the impact of self-healing. Vanguards are a little over 2% behind Guardians for reasons of…their own. It's not clear exactly why this is, especially since Vanguards have the worst defensive cooldowns of the tanking classes. Despite their currently superior survivability, double-Guardian is the worst tanking combination by far, since Guardians do not provide the damage debuff (provided by Shadows in the form of Slow Time, or by Vanguards in the form of Ion Cell). Guardians also suffer from very noticeable weaknesses on very specific bosses in the current HMs, such as Tyrans and Corrupter Zero, owing to their lack of shield bonuses and the specific nature of Saber Reflect.

 

PvP balance is somewhat more varied, but not as disparate as most people believe. Vanguards are the best PvP tanks in terms of mean mitigation, ahead of Guardians by a mere 0.1% and ahead of Shadows by 1.3%. However, this is somewhat balanced seeing as Riot Gas does not work reliably in PvP as a defensive cooldown, meaning that Vanguards need to have a bit more in the way of baseline survivability. Neither Shadows nor Guardians suffer from cooldowns which are less effective in PvP, and thus we see a slight penalization in terms of static survivability.

 

Note that in PvP, Guardians cannot benefit from the debuffs of another tank (assuming 1-tank arena compositions), which means that they must be considered in the full absence of the 5% damage reduction debuff provided by Shadows, Vanguards and Watchman Sentinels.

 

Hybrid Guardians (as well as Shadows, for that matter) are currently omitted from the relative chart owing to the fact that the hybrid Guardian spec falls too far behind in the realm of defensive CDs to be competitive, and thus causes a very deceptive skewing of the relative numbers. A more complete analysis of the standard hybrid tank specs (most notably, Shadows and Guardians) is beyond the scope of this section.

 

It's worth noting that these relative balance figures assume absolutely numerically perfect play on the part of each tank. A single GCD's worth of delay on Blade Storm for a Guardian or a single GCD early on a Kinetic Ward refresh for a Shadow and their survivability plummets. This might explain why Vanguards are somewhat behind the other two tanks, seeing as their active mitigation is far, far less susceptible to diminishment due to player error.

 

Overall, tank balance in 2.5 represents an impressive achievement on the part of Bioware's combat team. I don't agree with every decision they make, but credit where credit is due. All three tanks are viable, and absent the aforementioned double-Guardian composition, any tank may be slotted into any ops group without disadvantage.

 

Projected Survivability

 

One interesting thing to look at is how well the three tanks do not just in content now but in future content. By making the assumption that both armor rating and damage levels are linearly correlated with stat budget, we can examine this question. Note that this is a fairly significant assumption! This graph looks at the projected survivability of each tank plotted over stat budget (shadows = blue; guardians = red; vanguards = yellow). As you can see, the Guardian lead on the other two tanks shrinks consistently as damage levels and gear improves. Shadows don't scale quite as well as Vanguards do (on account of the heavy armor vs light armor distinction), but all three tanks are still within a hair's breath of each other by the time we get to the absolute numerical limit on current stat scaling (a budget of roughly 5k).

 

 

-------------------------

Disclaimer: this is the work of KeyboardNinja. I merely resurrected it back online. Hope this helps.

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Tried to find some info about PvP relics for tank but not a lot posts about it here. So, what will be better and is Reactive Warding good to use it in PvP (ranked arenas mostly, not intresting regular wz). My choise is SA + FR since a lot crits in pvp and not sure how good will be RW with 1.5k-1.6k absorb per 20 sec.

 

And yeah, I know that for different group sets can be different relics as BiS but intresting more average oppinion, maybe after will be full 174 then can think about 3rd relic to swap according group set.

Edited by archieTevidor
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Hey, im starting to gear my vg tank, should i use B mods and sturdiness/immunity enhancements, or go with unletterd mods as well?=

 

Use b mods but use mean mitigation enhancements (sturdiness/immunity) and also token ear and implants. Augments should round out whichever mitigation stats you are lacking in gear before augmenting, but judging by how PT/VG tank gearing goes, most of your augments will be shield with a few defense or absorb depending on which gear pieces you upgrade first.

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how would point distribution differ for me if iam using old assassin set? and can any1 tell me formula to calculate how much dmg reduction y get per point of armor ?

 

I actually want to know that too. From my not so detailed calculations the old set bonus for shadows gives you an overall better mitigation. The 5% shield bonus during Kinetic Wards out weights the 3 extra stacks of Kinetic Ward and this is without taking the fact that in a lot of fights you never run out of stacks. The faster taunts are just ridiculous set bonus. Not even close two 2% damage reduction.

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