In a way you are correct, but you also forget a full maxed out toon will not be in every BG.

Why you ask? well in a few months when your well geared you simply dont que as often or que on an alt that needs gear.

Same as in "WoW" you get geared and your que grinding becomes alot less, its just the natural flow of things.

 

So you remove the stat and people just do PVE and once in while pvp when they feel like it.

Ether way pvp que numbers drop if you do not reward people for it.

On the flip you make pvp gear the same as pve and people do what ever is the easier of the two and stomp the other one with their "easy mode" gear.

you NEED a way to keep the two seprate, I've seen it before with HW/GM gear and with BWL gear.

First Paragraph -- This is only true if your reason for PvPing is to get geaerd. A lot of people attempt to PvP for PvP's sake. It is true that their may or may not be fully geared opponents, I will adjust my analogy to having a Random Boss Generator for that fresh PvEer to face that can range from a normal FP boss to a Hardmode Op boss.

If a player stops PvPing to PvE because the gear in PvP is equivalent to PvE gear, then I say "mission accomplished." If your only motive to PvP is to get gear so you can rolfstomp undergeared players, and not because you enjoy testing yourself against others, then I don't think a PvP system should cater to you if you are that fickle.

I don't want to PvE to have to get the best gear for PvP. I'm not going to complain that people who PvE have a better gear when it comes to PvE so they shouldn't complain that since I worked for my PvP gear of course I'm going to have the edge in PvP.

Good job Bioware, don't listen to these people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I think you have it backwards. If Expertise was removed, then the Raiders would have the best dropped gear in the game. Removing Expertise would for PvPers to have to Raid in order to stay competitive in the Warzones.

 

Adding Expertise gives PvPers an advantage in Warzones over Raiders. When raiding, Raiders have an advantage over PvPers because the Rakata gear is statistically better for Raiding. At least this is how it's supposed to work.

 

But you have those players who have 2 sets of gear - 1 for raiding, 1 for PvP. So for the small minority that are already committing time to getting 2 sets of gear there is no difference for them if Expertise was dropped from gear. Since the small minority will always be the more serious about both Raiding and PvP you might as well drop Expertise from Gear.

 

I agree with the Op and think he makes some very valid points.

I just want to point this out...

No one has been advocating that Raid gear would have better stats for PvP than PvP gear -- PvP and PvE gear would have identical stats for PvP.

I don't want to PvE to have to get the best gear for PvP. I'm not going to complain that people who PvE have a better gear when it comes to PvE so they shouldn't complain that since I worked for my PvP gear of course I'm going to have the edge in PvP.

 

 

Good job Bioware, don't listen to these people who have no idea what they're talking about.

Again...

No one has been advocating that Raid gear would have better stats for PvP than PvP gear -- PvP and PvE gear would have identical stats for PvP.

i dont know if this was said before: The only ppl wich profit from expertise are healers

 

example everyone in the warzone has 10% expertise, that means 10% more dmg, 10% less incoming dmg wich means its the same without expertise.. bbut now the healers always have 10% more heal wich dont get reduced somehow

 

sry for my bad english its not my first language

But PvPers have an advantage over Raiders who don't change their gear for PvP gear. So a level 50 in pure PvP gear is going to have a damage advantage over a level 50 in pure Rakata gear.

There are small advantages for wearing PvP gear. This system is rather balanced if you have 2 different players that want to casually enjoy the other system. Where this whole system is broken down is when you have 1 person that uses 2 sets of gear, 1 for Raids (Rakata) 1 for PvP (BattleMaster). Since you already have players like that, which are switching out gear - the Expertise system is broke.

Looking at the raw stats, it seems to me PvP gear is one tier below PvE for purpose of PvE, and PvP gear is one tier above PvE for purpose of PvP. I can't say for sure if that's how it exactly works out without crunching all the numbers, but it's at least a reasonable model. It's not like the PvP gear is +5 endurance + 5 crit + 100 expertise. They do have a respectable amount of base stats even without the expertise. They're obviously not as good as equal tier PvE gear for PvE, but this statement is also true in reverse (equal tier PvE gear not as good as PvP for PvP).

This is working as intended. PvP gear should be better for PvP, but not as good in Raids as the Rakata gear, the other way around for PvE gear. But when you have 1 person using both sets of gear the system gets broke, since PvPers are no longer getting an advantage over PvErs using their Rakata gear (because they are switching to BattleMaster gear).

I just want to point this out...

 

No one has been advocating that Raid gear would have better stats for PvP than PvP gear -- PvP and PvE gear would have identical stats for PvP.

 

 

Again...

 

No one has been advocating that Raid gear would have better stats for PvP than PvP gear -- PvP and PvE gear would have identical stats for PvP.

That's exactly the point. If you drop Expertise from gear then there is no need for PvPers to PvP for gear. BioWare isn't going to drop Expertise from PvP gear and bump their stats, forcing PvErs to PvP to quickly get their PvE gear.

BioWare would drop the Expertise while keeping the same stats, thus forcing PvPers to Raid for the best gear in game. If they don't do this, then yes Raiders would look to PvP to get their gear because it would be a quicker route to gear up for end game raids.

If you are asking for Expertise to be dropped then you need to realize the PvP gear would not have equal stats to the PvE gear.

It's called a "grind".

It's how developers think people are kept playing an MMO.

That's exactly the point. If you drop Expertise from gear then there is no need for PvPers to PvP for gear. BioWare isn't going to drop Expertise from PvP gear and bump their stats, forcing PvErs to PvP to quickly get their PvE gear.

 

BioWare would drop the Expertise while keeping the same stats, thus forcing PvPers to Raid for the best gear in game. If they don't do this, then yes Raiders would look to PvP to get their gear because it would be a quicker route to gear up for end game raids.

 

If you are asking for Expertise to be dropped then you need to realize the PvP gear would not have equal stats to the PvE gear.

How hard is it to realize I am not talking about a simple "remove Expertise from the game" fix. I have posted this several times in this thread, but you gave me the idea to consolidate this. The "complete" fix IMO would be the following.

1. Make "Universal Stats" (Aim, Endurance, Crit, Surge, etc., any stat that works in PvP and PvE is what I will call "universal") identical for the first Tier epic PvP and PvE equipment. This means:

2. Remove Expertise as a PvP stat and make it a PvE stat. Expertise would increase your Damage, Healing Done, and Defense by X% when you are in a Flashpoint or Operation. Now apply the *new* Expertise to the first top-tier PvE gear.

This gives you the following for the top-tier PvP and PvE gear:

Tier 1 PvP Chest:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

Tier 1 PvE Chest:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 *new* Expertise

Now players in the best PvP gear and the best PvE gear will have the same "Universal Stats" and thus no statistical advantage in PvP.

For the next tier, "universal stats" remain unchanged; however, the PvP gear has a new aesthetic design and the PvE gear increases its *new* Expertise stat. This means come tier 2, a tier 1 PvE/PvP geared player will have the same stats as a Tier2 PvP/PvE geared player in PvP, but PvE gear can still increase in power for Flashpoints and Operations, keeping the same exact progression model that is currently in the game for PvE.

PvP gear is extreamly easy to get if you pvp regualry, even if you lose most of the time your going to have most of your pieces within a couple weeks

Whats going to ruin PvP is Sages and Sorcerers healing for 400k+, they need to be tweak so there more in line with BH and Agent healers...

I'm sorry but I am almost positive more then half of you want expertise removed for this alone.

 

I'm sorry but I am almost positive more then half of you want expertise removed for this alone.

You do realize that is precisely what Expertise causes in the case of a level 50 with Expertise vs. a level 49.

brackets...coming soon

/thread

the whole idea behind getting gear from daily and weekly quests is so that those people who can not or do not sit and grind are still able to compete. it takes away from those heavy grinders but at the same time makes it fair to those who have work, kids or anything else going on in their lives.

expertise also distinguishes the difference between pvp gear and raid gear.

having a stat that does nothing for a raid fight wont help them in any aspect of the game except for fighting other players so i absolutely agree with having it.

think people.

use some common sense.

its really a good stat to have.

stop nerd raging because some level 50s killed you and go level so that they dont destroy you.

once you hit level 40 it is easy to go toe to toe with a level 50 even if they are in full champion gear because the differences in stats is not that big.

the whole idea behind getting gear from daily and weekly quests is so that those people who can not or do not sit and grind are still able to compete. it takes away from those heavy grinders but at the same time makes it fair to those who have work, kids or anything else going on in their lives.

expertise also distinguishes the difference between pvp gear and raid gear.

having a stat that does nothing for a raid fight wont help them in any aspect of the game except for fighting other players so i absolutely agree with having it.

think people.

use some common sense.

its really a good stat to have.

stop nerd raging because some level 50s killed you and go level so that they dont destroy you.

once you hit level 40 it is easy to go toe to toe with a level 50 even if they are in full champion gear because the differences in stats is not that big.

So because I choose to focus my time mainly on PvP I should not be allowed to do PvE content with any extra time I have due to my gear? How nice.

It's a stupid stat, and bad for the game.

If it wasn't for that stat, then raid gear would be required for the best pvp performance, and that is completely unacceptable.

How hard is it to realize I am not talking about a simple "remove Expertise from the game" fix. I have posted this several times in this thread, but you gave me the idea to consolidate this. The "complete" fix IMO would be the following.

 

1. Make "Universal Stats" (Aim, Endurance, Crit, Surge, etc., any stat that works in PvP and PvE is what I will call "universal") identical for the first Tier epic PvP and PvE equipment. This means:

 

2. Remove Expertise as a PvP stat and make it a PvE stat. Expertise would increase your Damage, Healing Done, and Defense by X% when you are in a Flashpoint or Operation. Now apply the *new* Expertise to the first top-tier PvE gear.

 

This gives you the following for the top-tier PvP and PvE gear:

 

Tier 1 PvP Chest:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

 

Tier 1 PvE Chest:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 *new* Expertise

 

Now players in the best PvP gear and the best PvE gear will have the same "Universal Stats" and thus no statistical advantage in PvP.

 

For the next tier, "universal stats" remain unchanged; however, the PvP gear has a new aesthetic design and the PvE gear increases its *new* Expertise stat. This means come tier 2, a tier 1 PvE/PvP geared player will have the same stats as a Tier2 PvP/PvE geared player in PvP, but PvE gear can still increase in power for Flashpoints and Operations, keeping the same exact progression model that is currently in the game for PvE.

So... I don't think people here are really arguing with you. Your idea is neat, but it is never going to happen so there is no reason to argue against it. Raid gear is not going to be given a "raid gear only stat" as Raiders would be outraged and it would essentially serve no purpose other than gating. Other games have tried using gear for gating that had no benefits save allowing you into the next tier, people hated it, it got removed.

The reason people are arguing against the removal of expertise gear is based in the type of game this is. In some sort of old school/traditional FFA PvP game it'd be fine for there to be no special advancement in PvP or for all gear to essentially be the same. This however is not that kind of game. SWTOR is a fairly standard loot/reward based game about rewarding individual achievements basically with new "leet gear". The expertise system makes it so that people are rewarded only during PvP for committing time only to PvP.

Is the system ideal? No. However its the best we are likely to get unless you join the dev team or they suddenly decide to completely rework the loot system in the game.

Come on is it really that hard.

 

Raid gear = best at PvE raids... In other words. Raid Stat.

Raid gear has a Raid stat that does the exact same thing Expertise does in reverse. Giving Damage and Defense bonuses Vs PvE mobs.

 

Gear Released for New Raids... has a counter version released with the New Warzone based on the same map as the new raid.

 

Stats are EQUAL 100% except the raid version has X amount of the PvE Stat... making it superior for Raids... and Equal for PvP. Problem fixed.

 

Then if that evil raid player ques up... and he manages too kill the poor PvP player it is 100% based on skill. If he comes in and gets stomped (Which should be expected anyway if hes playing against hardcore PvP players) so be it... no gear to blame... their tears are all the more sweeter.

 

There ya go problem solved. Raid gear is still MUCH better for people that enjoy raiding and high end PvP content. PvP gear has Zero Disadvantage. For those of us that would rather PvP all day.

I said without it coming down to a stat. Next?

If Bio had any vision... they would have done away with the idea of a PvP stat... and designed a PvE Stat. A way to make 30 30 30 stats on both gear... with PvE raid gear that adds 10% bonuses too PvE content. That would have been the fix.... PvP stats are the completely wrong way to go about it... No NPC is going to wine that that fully geared raid group is smacking em 10% harder.

Ironically, Mythic did just that- they made something called 'wards', which was a pve stat that made bosses hit you harder unless you had the tier gear from the previous raid dungeon.

It was perhaps the worst idea I've ever seen, and made already bad raids that much worse, as you literally couldn't even assist in fighting a raid boss that you weren't perfectly geared for, unless you were a healer... but even then, most bosses had one shot aoe that were invisible and demolished you if you weren't wearing the right wards.

This post is stupid, why would you get PVP gear if there is no bonus to it? Why else would PVP gear exist other than to give PVP bonuses? PVP isn't fair and shouldn't be fair, it's first come first sever in most situations. People grinded out PVP gear and deserve a bonus for that. In fact this gear is very easy to get so I don't see your problem here.

I don't understand why casual PVPer's think they know everything and everything should be casual. PVP isn't casual, you can do it casually but you also suffer the fact that you will do bad due to skill/gear disadvantages. If there was no bonus for the gear people wouldn't get it. It is not a supplement to PVE raid gear, it is its own set of gear that has different purpose.

It is so easy to get I don't know why you are complaining over this. Are you really trying to kill this game already? I mean seriously it is so messed up at the current time that the PVP crowd will likely quit after the first month. Now you are trying to slap them in the face again?

Edit:

If you really think this PVP boost given from the gear is a huge boost, you should try other games because honestly the boost given isn't that great. Sure it's a lot for this game but in general it's not.

If it wasn't for that stat, then raid gear would be required for the best pvp performance, and that is completely unacceptable.

unless they change pvp gear to be on par with raid gear. Then people can actually enjoy the whole game with half the grind. Sadly, BW has no interest in cutting the grind in half. The problem is that there seem to be an awful lot of people who play for gear instead of for fun. At least MMO designers seem to think so. I got the full set in PvP before I cleared the full raid? Whatever, I still want to clear the raid. And I still want to PvP. And now I can go back and forth.

You do realize that is precisely what Expertise causes in the case of a level 50 with Expertise vs. a level 49.

But in a perfect world people leveling up should be fighting other people leveling up.

How hard is it to realize I am not talking about a simple "remove Expertise from the game" fix. I have posted this several times in this thread, but you gave me the idea to consolidate this. The "complete" fix IMO would be the following.

 

1. Make "Universal Stats" (Aim, Endurance, Crit, Surge, etc., any stat that works in PvP and PvE is what I will call "universal") identical for the first Tier epic PvP and PvE equipment. This means:

 

2. Remove Expertise as a PvP stat and make it a PvE stat. Expertise would increase your Damage, Healing Done, and Defense by X% when you are in a Flashpoint or Operation. Now apply the *new* Expertise to the first top-tier PvE gear.

 

This gives you the following for the top-tier PvP and PvE gear:

 

Tier 1 PvP Chest:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

 

Tier 1 PvE Chest:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 *new* Expertise

 

Now players in the best PvP gear and the best PvE gear will have the same "Universal Stats" and thus no statistical advantage in PvP.

 

For the next tier, "universal stats" remain unchanged; however, the PvP gear has a new aesthetic design and the PvE gear increases its *new* Expertise stat. This means come tier 2, a tier 1 PvE/PvP geared player will have the same stats as a Tier2 PvP/PvE geared player in PvP, but PvE gear can still increase in power for Flashpoints and Operations, keeping the same exact progression model that is currently in the game for PvE.

The bottom line is that players are going to play the quickest way to get gear. If that quick path is to PvP then that's what Raiders are going to do. If that path is PvE then that's what PvPers are going to do.

This is just another reason why PvP servers should never have raids and why PvE servers should not have warzones. *Frustration speaking*

Honestly after thinking about EvE I feel that the Expertise stat should just stay and we have 2 sets of armor, 1 for PvP, 1 for PvE. EvE has different ships for different roles (character stats/skills never change only the gear used i.e. ships) and because of that I think that PvPers that want to raid should just get Rakata gear and when they want to PvP they should just use BM gear. If you aren't hardcore enough to get both then just be satisfied you got one or the other that's best gear in game for that respective play style.

This post is stupid, why would you get PVP gear if there is no bonus to it? Why else would PVP gear exist other than to give PVP bonuses? PVP isn't fair and shouldn't be fair, it's first come first sever in most situations. People grinded out PVP gear and deserve a bonus for that. In fact this gear is very easy to get so I don't see your problem here.

 

I don't understand why casual PVPer's think they know everything and everything should be casual. PVP isn't casual, you can do it casually but you also suffer the fact that you will do bad due to skill/gear disadvantages. If there was no bonus for the gear people wouldn't get it. It is not a supplement to PVE raid gear, it is its own set of gear that has different purpose.

 

It is so easy to get I don't know why you are complaining over this. Are you really trying to kill this game already? I mean seriously it is so messed up at the current time that the PVP crowd will likely quit after the first month. Now you are trying to slap them in the face again?

 

Edit:

 

If you really think this PVP boost given from the gear is a huge boost, you should try other games because honestly the boost given isn't that great. Sure it's a lot for this game but in general it's not.

Give casuals a place to pvp and this problem goes away. There is plenty of PvE content for casual players in decent gear to actually accomplish something, but there is nowhere for casual players to enjoy PvP because they are forced to play against the top PvP players who are fully geared up. They don't lock flashpoints and force players to do hardmode operations. But as it stands there is no 'flashpoint' version of PvP so we basically just can't enjoy half of the game as a casual player because we are a detriment to our team.

I don't need my gear to be top quality as a casual pvper. I just want to occasionally queue up and actually have a chance to be useful. If I could play against likeminded people I would love it. Give me a bracket where I can't get the top rewards and that people using the top items can't queue for. I would love it. They have normal and hard mode PvE. I don't want to be forced into hard mode PvP.

Give casuals a place to pvp and this problem goes away. There is plenty of PvE content for casual players in decent gear to actually accomplish something, but there is nowhere for casual players to enjoy PvP because they are forced to play against the top PvP players who are fully geared up. They don't lock flashpoints and force players to do hardmode operations. But as it stands there is no 'flashpoint' version of PvP so we basically just can't enjoy half of the game as a casual player because we are a detriment to our team.

 

I don't need my gear to be top quality as a casual pvper. I just want to occasionally queue up and actually have a chance to be useful. If I could play against likeminded people I would love it. Give me a bracket where I can't get the top rewards and that people using the top items can't queue for. I would love it. They have normal and hard mode PvE. I don't want to be forced into hard mode PvP.

I'm sorry but i think you forget pvp is competitive. In real life you don't only show sometimes for practice and expect to play on the starting line up.

"We're talking about practice, man. I mean, how silly is that? We're talking about practice. I know I'm supposed to be there. I know I'm supposed to lead by example . . . I know it's important . . . I honestly do. But we're talking about practice, man. What are we talking about? Practice?"

I'm sorry but i think you forget pvp is competitive. In real life you don't only show sometimes for practice and expect to play on the starting line up.

 

"We're talking about practice, man. I mean, how silly is that? We're talking about practice. I know I'm supposed to be there. I know I'm supposed to lead by example . . . I know it's important . . . I honestly do. But we're talking about practice, man. What are we talking about? Practice?"

What athelete ever went straight from Little League straight to the Professional ones? It's like a little 8-year old going up against a six-foot-six genetic monstrosity in a game of tennis (I was the monstrosity). The poor guy was knocked flat on his back by the first serve.