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Objective pvp is a mess


TrixxieTriss

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I can’t believe I’m starting to hate objective pvp. I’ve always preferred it to arena and I’m good at it, but lvl 10-75 reg 8v8 is now so bad that I’m looking forward to when the queue pops slow and it switches to reg arena.

 

At least everyone tries to win in arena and the common goal is to kill and not die. But in 8v8 it seems only 1-3 people on each team (if you are lucky) actually care about winning.

 

I’ve said this before over the last 2 years and I didn’t think it could get worse then.

The quality and player skill to be able to play both forms of pvp has dropped to the point that hardly any can play objective pvp at all. Things like tactics and strategy are long dead and even trying to get someone to call incs or stay and guard after they cap it is neigh impossible.

 

I never thought it could get worse or better yet, I didn’t think I’d stay to see it get this bad. I guess I’ve been proven wrong.

 

Is there any hope for objective pvp anymore? Has it outlived it’s usefulness in this game when no one actually tries to play the objectives? Honestly, I just don’t know.

 

What do you guys think? Is there any hope or should Bioware consider a change to how objective pvp maps work?

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If you're playing lowbies and midbies pvp its definitely going to be worse in terms of objs, some people are actually new and are learning what they need to do in matches still. But either way most people learning a new class will probably be trying to learn how to dps first so ignoring objs, at least in 75 you see regular people doing objs, and the typical dps farmers but its better than lowbies and midbies, expecting them to do much of anything imo is asking for too much unless its an actual pvp alt in which case i'd assume they are just dpsing to farm new players or pvers which i think is weird if people are wanting to pick on em Edited by tharlainmar
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I 100% agree that the number of objective-focused PvPers has dropped significantly; it’s now a regular occurance finding myself the only player on my team focusing on the huttball whilst the rest of my team are deathmatching all over the map (cause damage/kills = ultimate show of skill ofcourse :cool:).

 

Now I genuinely get nervous at the start of PvP maps that if I don’t go for our node in an ACW/Yavin that nobody else on my team will.

 

On a minor note something that irks me a lot is that I’m a min/maxed MM Sniper so I could be melting targets at mid and getting us a cap there, but because the 276 in blues/greens would rather run into mid and get absolutely destroyed in seconds (essentially leaving our team as a 7-man) rather than defend the objective and call incs I’m stuck defending when I could be helping dominate mid.

 

And the problem isn’t just with pugs/newbies, premades are notorious for completely ignoring objectives and focusing on number farming (cause once again damage/kills = ultimate show of skill ofcourse :cool:), and within my guild I’ve become known as the guy that always focuses on objectives whilst the rest of my guildies usually just number farm in our premades.

 

Not much can be done without implementing either gigantic gains for winning/high objective score or harsh penalties for losing/ low objective score, and at the end of the day the latter would really take away from the “play your way” aspect.

Edited by Spintrec
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If you're playing lowbies and midbies pvp its definitely going to be worse in terms of objs, some people are actually new and are learning what they need to do in matches still. But either way most people learning a new class will probably be trying to learn how to dps first so ignoring objs, at least in 75 you see regular people doing objs, and the typical dps farmers but its better than lowbies and midbies, expecting them to do much of anything imo is asking for too much unless its an actual pvp alt in which case i'd assume they are just dpsing to farm new players or pvers which i think is weird if people are wanting to pick on em

 

I did say 10-75. So I included all of it.

 

Surprisingly, my experience is it’s actually worse at lvl 75 than in lowbies or Mids.

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This is a good idea, actually. The penalty would have to be really harsh too.

 

They’d need to redo the whole medal/objective points system to actually have a more accurate representation.

 

What if they were to do away with objectives in half the 8v8 maps or made it more king of the hill that rotates on a countdown.

(Just an example)

Using Nova as an example cause it already has a count down.

Each node has x amount of time on it and only one can be active at a time. The system randomly chooses which one after the match starts.

When the timer gets to zero it deactivates and one of the other nodes randomly becomes the active one.

Who ever controls the node gets bonus objective points per kill.

Kills and dps don’t record on the score board unless you are within the vicinity of the active node.

The team that wins is the one with the most objective points and kills combined.

 

They could do other things for the different maps and base it on a combo of kills and objective points. And if they make it so the kills and dps only record when at the active objectives. Then more people would be trying to get kills and dps while fighting at the right spot. Because we know, dps and kills really determine how good someone is :rolleyes: /sarcasm.

 

How about Hutt ball? Scoring isn’t the only way you win. You can win by having more objective points than the other team. So even if they out score you, they also need more objective points to win. But you only get objective points for playing in the vicinity of the ball carrier. If you are fighting on the other side of the map, you get no objective points and if you aren’t with in x distance on the ball carrier, your kills and dps don’t appear on the score board.

 

Anyway, they are just rough ideas I pulled out the proverbial void while writing this post.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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This is not a swtor only issue. Even if you give rewards only for winning people will still be bad and you will be even more frustrated.

 

Also, i want to argue that people are pretty bad at arena too. You just don't see it as clearly. Not popping defensives, doing low damage, etc.

 

I know i find it very frustrating myself and makes me rage sometimes. But, i don't think theres any way to solve it. Maybe if better rewards are given for doing objectives. Like, if you get above 5k points you get an extra box at the end or sonething.

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Fellows, nobody wants to do nothing for 15 mins. Essentially for the most part that’s what’s needed to win Swtor match. It’s lame and boring. I don’t wanna do it anymore I can imagine it’s the same for many others.

Also if everyone else is just farming kills then you simply go defend and let them farm in mid so you will win then.

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Fellows, nobody wants to do nothing for 15 mins. Essentially for the most part that’s what’s needed to win Swtor match. It’s lame and boring. I don’t wanna do it anymore I can imagine it’s the same for many others.

 

Only time playing objectives is 'doing nothing' is when you're guarding a node (even then you have to watch out for stealthers and incs), in every other aspect of playing objectives you're doing something (playing the ball, trying to stuncap the enemies node etc.), and I think that stuncapping a node or scoring the ball is far more thrilling than being sat at mid either farming or getting farmed.

 

Also if everyone else is just farming kills then you simply go defend and let them farm in mid so you will win then.

 

If my team is genuinely farming mid and is destroying the enemy team then by all means I'll happily defend, but if our team are just sat in a deadlock at mid with no side getting an advantage I would appreciate it if someone would come guard so I could atleast try to stuncap on their node and get us a win.

 

I'm fine with farming so long as it benefits our objectives, when we lose a game because my team didn't focus on anything but damage/dps/hps it makes me salty. It's unbelievable the amount of times I've seen 4-5 of my teammates surrounding the ball spawn after I score and not a single one of them picking it up, then an operative on the enemy team walks up and just grabs it.

Edited by Spintrec
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I think you need to look at the why in this case, more than the what.

Much of what you say is true, but ask yourself what 90% of those matches have in common, and the problem becomes fairly apparent.

Im not going to go into the what, truth be told we should all know what it is, and it isnt going to change, but at some point its going to become self fulfilling and people will no longer queue at all.

honestly, i kinda think thats what many of them are hoping.

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Only time playing objectives is 'doing nothing' is when you're guarding a node (even then you have to watch out for stealthers and incs), in every other aspect of playing objectives you're doing something (playing the ball, trying to stuncap the enemies node etc.), and I think that stuncapping a node or scoring the ball is far more thrilling than being sat at mid either farming or getting farmed.

 

Yeah mate so in every WZ apart from huttballs someone has to defend and it's a massive problem because it's boring AF. People dont wanna do it.

Plus most players are delusional as to how to actually win a game which makes for quite ridiculous spectacles in Regs.

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I can’t believe I’m starting to hate objective pvp. I’ve always preferred it to arena and I’m good at it, but lvl 10-75 reg 8v8 is now so bad that I’m looking forward to when the queue pops slow and it switches to reg arena.

 

At least everyone tries to win in arena and the common goal is to kill and not die. But in 8v8 it seems only 1-3 people on each team (if you are lucky) actually care about winning.

 

I’ve said this before over the last 2 years and I didn’t think it could get worse then.

The quality and player skill to be able to play both forms of pvp has dropped to the point that hardly any can play objective pvp at all. Things like tactics and strategy are long dead and even trying to get someone to call incs or stay and guard after they cap it is neigh impossible.

 

I never thought it could get worse or better yet, I didn’t think I’d stay to see it get this bad. I guess I’ve been proven wrong.

 

Is there any hope for objective pvp anymore? Has it outlived it’s usefulness in this game when no one actually tries to play the objectives? Honestly, I just don’t know.

 

What do you guys think? Is there any hope or should Bioware consider a change to how objective pvp maps work?

 

Make your own games within game... if your team is not competent.

 

Game within game is simple: I always try to solo cap of one the enemy nodes usually guarded by a stealther... which ends up in a 1v1, 2v1 duel... This way I challenge myself and don't get bored nor do I quit. Other thing I do is seeking out situations where I end up outnumbered and try to survive as long as possible by kiting hard.

 

I hate premades. I find them boring to play in.. Like what's the point of farming random noobs all the time ? That's not my idea of fun or challenge.

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Which is why you get with like-minded individuals to group with otherwise you end up logging out due to frustration. So give your names if you want to play objectives and we band together. Unite my fellow objective players!

 

You mean go with a premade and roflstomp randoms without any organization or communication, only by text.

Makes you feel fulfilled does it? It's nothing short of cheating. That's not PvP, it's farming and causes more people to stop queing than defending points.

 

Random warzones are not the place for premades. Only reason why people get frustrated is cause they are trying to work a random group against a premade. This problem gets solved by removing premades. Their place is in arenas. Let casuals do casual pvp. At that point balance is achieved. If both teams are doing deathmatch aside from 2 guys on each team those are still workable odds. What isn't are 2v8's.

Edited by Nemmar
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So what you are saying is that pugs just by principle suck? If I had the ball in huttball, you wouldn't know to get ahead of me for a pass without me being on discord to tell you that? Do I need to be on comms to tell you to interrupt a cap? But heaven forbid I would like to group with people who can actually play the game. Best players? Not at all but doesn't mean we can't get together and try. It is more fun that way. Apparently grouping with someone and guarding a node is roflstomping pugs. So basically you want skill level separation. Separate the true pvpers vs people who are clueless.

 

Not to mention, you don't have to be in discord to group. Most of the time when I group, we aren't in comms. So what is our advantage?

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Little reason to try and win.

What do you get from winning? Mediocre drops that aren't the same item level, sometimes are?

More warzone medpacs and adrenals than you could ever use?

Outside conquest, I see little point with how frustrating it is to play objective PvP.

 

Though each side will still exist, forever pretty much. 8v8's aren't designed for deathmatches, at least yet, I hope someday we do get a version that does support deathmatching. It'd really help players learn the combat to the game for not only arenas but objective gameplay.

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Make your own games within game... if your team is not competent.

 

I always did this, too.

 

That's how I managed my own nerd rage in matches early on. I'd find ways to channel my annoyance by working to accomplish my own mini goals in a PVP match.

 

Of course, this doesn't really help bring the team together because basically we are going off doing our own thing while there could be some that actually are trying to work (silently) with others to win the match, it just seems to be the opposite usually because of communication failure and poor gameplay.

 

 

I hate premades. I find them boring to play in.. Like what's the point of farming random noobs all the time ? That's not my idea of fun or challenge.

 

Honestly the premades I ever had the pleasure of running with didn't do it to farm noobs, as most people think.

 

It's really to liken the chances their own team is competent, and running with competent players means you won't get steamrolled by other premade teams.

 

It's really the only way you can avoid being thrusted on a team full of noobs by joining your own premade.

 

One thing too, though just because you in a premade doesn't mean you have some secret boost that suddenly makes your team higher skilled.

 

I been in strong premades and awful ones. Usually it's actually more about familiarity and knowing people who you end up in premades with. As long as you aren't a complete failure in PVP, even most elite players will premade with non-elites in regs. That's how I learned too, grouping with better players than myself.

 

It takes much longer to improve your skills without people giving you tips and feedback on how you play. For these reasons I don't poo-poo premades. There's probably more benefits added to the game allowing premades than there are negatives.

 

For the record I tended to solo queue far more than I joined premades. But it's inevitable if you PVP enough, you will get invites to join others and that's how the premade pattern begins.

Edited by Lhancelot
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The attitude in lowbies says it all : “who cares, it’s only lowbies”.

That’s after I’m trying to give some actual tips and advice in a very calm and encouraging way. Only to have dps heroes tell you it doesn’t matter and that you should shut up.

 

Lowbies is where you should be learning to play pvp and what the objectives are, tactics, how your class works etc.

It’s not there so you can farm dps numbers on lowbie learners and then tell them how bad they are or trash talk them so they never get better or they quit playing altogether.

The epeen from some of the more testosterone driven players would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad and it wasn’t teaching bad habits to new Pvpers.

 

That attitude of lowbies doesn’t matter is why LvL 75 is such a joke. Those people who want to learn as they lvl will only ever get told it doesn’t matter, so when they get to lvl 75 they don’t know any better.

LvL 75 isn’t for learning. By the time you get to lvl 75, you should already have a good idea why the objectives are and how to play.

 

Watching 3-4 people do 6-8 mil damage on a team in a lowbie match and then lose to teams who did 1/5 that amount only shows they are only there to farm lowbies. They don’t try to win and they aren’t guiding new players or helping. Even if they don’t want to guide newbies, all they have to do is keep their comments to themselves so they don’t tarnish new players with their epeen.

 

I feel pvp is now doomed in this game. After this last patch where people are wall hacking again and activation lag. It’s not even worth loading into it most of the time.

 

I don’t think the hacking would even be hard this time around considering Bioware themselves don’t know the difference between the ground and the air. Aka, go to Korriban starting area at the moment and we have a new floating piece floor. You can run under it or climb on top and use it as a dance platform.

https://imgur.com/gallery/rKq4coC

 

Poor coding and QA. It looks like they are letting interns play around in the code and on Korriban. I noticed some other small changes to support that theory too.

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The attitude in lowbies says it all : “who cares, it’s only lowbies”.

That’s after I’m trying to give some actual tips and advice in a very calm and encouraging way. Only to have dps heroes tell you it doesn’t matter and that you should shut up.

 

Lowbies is where you should be learning to play pvp and what the objectives are, tactics, how your class works etc.

It’s not there so you can farm dps numbers on lowbie learners and then tell them how bad they are or trash talk them so they never get better or they quit playing altogether.

The epeen from some of the more testosterone driven players would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad and it wasn’t teaching bad habits to new Pvpers.

 

That attitude of lowbies doesn’t matter is why LvL 75 is such a joke. Those people who want to learn as they lvl will only ever get told it doesn’t matter, so when they get to lvl 75 they don’t know any better.

LvL 75 isn’t for learning. By the time you get to lvl 75, you should already have a good idea why the objectives are and how to play.

 

Watching 3-4 people do 6-8 mil damage on a team in a lowbie match and then lose to teams who did 1/5 that amount only shows they are only there to farm lowbies. They don’t try to win and they aren’t guiding new players or helping. Even if they don’t want to guide newbies, all they have to do is keep their comments to themselves so they don’t tarnish new players with their epeen.

 

I feel pvp is now doomed in this game. After this last patch where people are wall hacking again and activation lag. It’s not even worth loading into it most of the time.

 

I don’t think the hacking would even be hard this time around considering Bioware themselves don’t know the difference between the ground and the air. Aka, go to Korriban starting area at the moment and we have a new floating piece floor. You can run under it or climb on top and use it as a dance platform.

https://imgur.com/gallery/rKq4coC

 

Poor coding and QA. It looks like they are letting interns play around in the code and on Korriban. I noticed some other small changes to support that theory too.

 

Theory. Expand on this theory you last mentioned I have not heard any new theories.

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I did 75 pvp today, got huttball, my team didn't even bother witb objectives and we lost 6-0 pretty quick.

I was healing so got fucused quite s lot and figured, oh well, my team must be dmg farming...

 

End of game, 2 players broke 1k dps and not even by much lol -_-

 

**** this game, I've had enuff between the ineptitude of the devs, their mollycoddling and double standards and this is what we are left with?

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I did 75 pvp today, got huttball, my team didn't even bother witb objectives and we lost 6-0 pretty quick.

I was healing so got fucused quite s lot and figured, oh well, my team must be dmg farming...

 

End of game, 2 players broke 1k dps and not even by much lol -_-

 

**** this game, I've had enuff between the ineptitude of the devs, their mollycoddling and double standards and this is what we are left with?

 

I love those matches where your entire team is numbers farming, then when it's all said and done... your teams highest can't even break 1k dps.

 

I think the same thing everytime, at least if you going to farm numbers you better put up something decent. lol.

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Basically everything about the objectives maps need serious work. - They are hardly changed since launch. - But abilities and CDs and such are way more powerful and varied now, so the objectives are somwhat harder to achieve, so no-one bothers.

 

When yo look at Hit Points of each character, then the HPS and DPS thet players can pump out, all the gap-closers making melee able to jump or pull to ranged, the added stealth options, the FOTMs of mercenaries and assassins upsetting the mixture, the DCDs that some classes have making them hard to kill, the added teleport that was given to snipers and Gunslingers, the added stuns and extra stuns and CC and slows and roots....

 

Every time I see someone alone trying to channel a cap ( door, turret or whatever) a stealth class pops out and stops it. When you can get a CC on them, someone else attackes them and breaks it. - It's an excercise in frustration. - So people simply deathmatch, hoping that one clued-up person will play the objectives, meaning that none do.

 

- And there seem to be a large proportion of players that can't defend two nodes out of three and win, but have to try capping the third, leaving the team over-stretched and exposed to a counter attack.

 

THere are also a larger number who just quit the minute the tide turns against them, leaving the remainder of the team losing with reduced numbers until the inevitable happens.

 

PLayers get little or no recognition for plating the objectives - even scoring 5x the next highest scorer still rarely warrants even an mvp vote - after that everyone gets the same. - so there's no real incentive.

 

Sure a win counts for 2x but even that isn't much better reward than 2x quick losses.

 

It needs a huge overhaul - but that's a long wait for a train that don't come.

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While I still have good fun in regs no matter the tier, I have a high tolerance for repetition. Even then, after 8 or so years with only a tiny handful of new objective maps, most of which are inferior to the originals then what's to be expected? You get out what you put in. Sadly, and I say that because I genuinely enjoy the PvP in this game, one just has to face the fact that it's nothing more than a sideshow to the main event and is treated accordingly. It's stale, repetitive and it's going to take a genuine effort - starting with a slew of new and exciting objective maps - to make 8v8 a big draw again. Probably more of an effort than BW will be willing to make.
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Some intriguing comments and rationalizations im reading, but at the end of the day it all comes down to one thing, choice.

We all know the rules, we all know how it plays, and we all know (or should know anyway) that dps makes little difference unless it in pursuit of the objectives. I've seen a lot of people with silly high damage on the losing end of people playing the way the map was designed.

Play how you want, its your dime, but lets not pretend its anything other than our own decision to play outside the lines so to speak.

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While I still have good fun in regs no matter the tier, I have a high tolerance for repetition. Even then, after 8 or so years with only a tiny handful of new objective maps, most of which are inferior to the originals then what's to be expected? You get out what you put in. Sadly, and I say that because I genuinely enjoy the PvP in this game, one just has to face the fact that it's nothing more than a sideshow to the main event and is treated accordingly. It's stale, repetitive and it's going to take a genuine effort - starting with a slew of new and exciting objective maps - to make 8v8 a big draw again. Probably more of an effort than BW will be willing to make.

 

I think at this point we can refer to the past regarding PVP as the “good old days” which makes me sad, because for many years I anticipated the next big update that would bring PVP to higher levels. Instead, every large update has accomplished the exact opposite.

 

The funny thing is it took me this long to finally throw the towel in and concede to the death of this game and PVP as it once was. I say it’s funny because looking at the bigger picture I think BW threw the towel in long before I ever did.

 

Oh well. SWTOR will go down in history as the MMO that should have been and could have been, a real disappointment in how the game was managed after launch. A gold mine sat on and never mined. Opportunities squandered beyond belief. I could write a hundred more cliches but rather not so I won’t.

Edited by Lhancelot
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