MajinUltima Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Healers have completely dominated PVP since ~1.2 or 1.3 (not so much Commando/Merc). Any PVP is a damn nightmare right now. Premades stack heavy healers and win by virtue of healing being completely overpowered, causing a lot of misplaced complaining about premades. Healing outstrips damage by a MINIMUM of 2:1, often 3:1. This is just a simple fact. The occssional high damage numbers are almost exclusively AOE inflation and people being ignored in vain attempts to kill nearby healers. This completely ruins all Warzones, except Huttball where positioning and high ground control are a bigger factor than straight confrontations, usually. Civil War and Novare - Get ANY minor advantage and auto-win. Once the healer-heavy team establishes a 2-cap, winning becomes impossible for the other team. There is literally no way, barring the healer team simply not watching the turret, for the other team to turn the game around. Everything dies so slowly such that, even if you COULD win the engagement... respawning healers prevent any chance of doing so. Voidstar - Turtle the first doors with your unkillable team. Again, as long as the door is not simply left empty, there is no way for the attacking team to down the door. Hypergates - With the trend in play, as long as your pylon isn't sniped, the healing team will win. They can easily get more kills and orbs due to dominating victories in midfield. There is again literally no way to turn the match around unless they just leave their pylon empty. The PVP of this game used to be fun... USED TO BE. I love this game, and the warzones. But, with patch after patch of healers being completely unbeatably dominant, I'm having a hard time finding the motivation to play or keep a sub active. It's like they want to ruin every enjoyable aspect of the game systematically just to make sure it dies off completely and generates no more revenue. Edited May 15, 2013 by MajinUltima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashuranrx Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Not true. Heals and damage are balanced. I had games where the opposing team has 3 healers and 1 tank and 4 DPS, and my team has 7 DPS and 1 tank, and we completely obliterated the opposing team because our DPS were superb. If you lose a game to healers that means the DPS on your team was badly lacking. Contrary to popular belief, playing a good DPS is just as hard as playing a good tank or a good healer. Carnage Marauder is the best healer killing spec, yet how often do you see Carnage in WZs? And how often you see a good Carnage in WZs? Part of playing a good DPS is to learn how to focus fire, but most people don't do it. Heals are not OP, just that DPS need to learn to play better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajinUltima Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Part of playing a good DPS is to learn how to focus fire, but most people don't do it. Heals are not OP, just that DPS need to learn to play better. That's just not the case, if you're killing healers, it's often because THEY are playing badly or not evasively enough, especially Scoundrel/Operative whose probe/medpac FAR outdoes mobile damage of all ranged specs and many melee specs. If all you're doing is chasing a healer who is constantly running, LOSing, etc, then you aren't doing damage or taking objectives, which means you aren't achieving anything productive. The worst part is, it isn't even optional. If you chase them, you're not achieving anything. If you DON'T chase them, they freecast. It's a literal lose-lose situation that becomes worse the more players are involved. A sniper or marauder can theoretically stack enough cooldowns and burst abilities to take one down, but that's a completely inane way to justify healing as "balanced". "Well 2 of the 18 dps specs in the game could theoretically burst down a healer with no cooldowns of their own who sits there and takes it, so healing is balanced." Completely insane. Stacked healers makes things more difficult. Have 2-3 people chasing 1 healer, and said healer is themself being healed extensively by the other un-focused healers. Warzone results consistently show healers above dps, often by very large margins. What people overlook is that dps values are INFLATED by a lot of wasted cleaves, AOEs, DOTs, that never endanger someone and don't kill anyone and are easily meditated off. It's VERY easy to spam Corrosive Grenades and Shrap Bombs to inflate damage numbers while achieving nothing whatsoever. Healing, however, is UNDERstated in the results, where overhealing and unused absorbs aren't included. This actually means that the true output of healers is even HIGHER than results typically reflect. So not only is it mathematically FAR easier to achieve high healing numbers, those numbers are actually understated, whereas a lot of damage numbers are inflated and overstated. The margin between healing and dps is considerably higher than scorescreens will ever reflect. If you see 1 million healing to 500k damage, the true discrepancy is more like 1.2 million to 400k, or even wider. This is a simple observerable mathematical fact. Edited May 15, 2013 by MajinUltima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zajfien Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Sound like another im goin to cry cuz i cant jist easy kill the healer... omg healer isnt insta dead... op.. op.. op... nerf.. boohooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVall Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 A typical warzone for my operative these days is 250k damage (just from using orbital strike on the node on cooldown), taking 500k damage, 0 deaths, and 1.5 million in healing. The match is usually 20+ minutes long because nobody on either team dies. Yeah, healing isn't OP right now at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natharon Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 This metrosexual is right! Whenever a team brings a healer into a warzone they gain a near insurmountable advantage! Especially if the other team does not have one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zajfien Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 A typical warzone for my operative these days is 250k damage (just from using orbital strike on the node on cooldown), taking 500k damage, 0 deaths, and 1.5 million in healing. The match is usually 20+ minutes long because nobody on either team dies. Yeah, healing isn't OP right now at all If thats all you are takin for dmg the other team isnt doin their job. I want in some those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natharon Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 A sniper or marauder can theoretically stack enough cooldowns and burst abilities to take one down, but that's a completely inane way to justify healing as "balanced". This is a simple observerable mathematical fact. So if 1 player could in theory kill a healer who is doing everything he can to stay alive with everything he can to kill that healer, that isn't balanced? You are right the post was inane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVall Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 If thats all you are takin for dmg the other team isnt doin their job. I want in some those. Well the damage is nicely split between me and the other 2 healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zajfien Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Well the damage is nicely split between me and the other 2 healers. nice. I love team heals. Watch my back i'll watch yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigDiath Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I won't lie. I went up against a Sorc Healer/TankSin combo in VoidStar the other night. Could not kill either of them no matter how much I focused the healer and the tank was good at peeling. We probably had half of our team trying to kill them while they stayed near the doors the whole time guarding. They had Snipers, Operatives and Bounty Hunters making it hard for us too but this duo knew what they were doing. Now I may not have been able to kill them because I was balance spec. I did it for sh*ts and giggles since I normally spec for Infiltration when I go DPS in matches or Tank spec. But we had good healers as well and I came out with 690k+ damage and maybe 3 deaths. I won't chalk that up to a healer who was OP, but rather to a good team dynamic who knew what they were doing and were geared to the teeth, fully optimized, fully augmented and knew how to play. The tank had the healer guarded, taunted at all the right times and had team mates who made it hard for dps to kill their healer. Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajinUltima Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) So if 1 player could in theory kill a healer who is doing everything he can to stay alive with everything he can to kill that healer, that isn't balanced? You are right the post was inane. If the healer is being aggressively focused by a competent dps, with both giving it their all, the healer SHOULD eventually go down within a reasonable timeframe. The healer isn't being allowed to freecast, which SHOULD be a big dent to their efficiency. All healing specs have multiple escape and disabling mechanisms to reduce the amount of incoming pressure a player can apply thoguh. Healing should not be so overpowered that the ONLY thing a healer has to do is run away with a HOT on themselves and live indefinitely, which is currently the case. The only healer which currently even seems to suffer from being attacked is Merc/Commando. Sage/Sorc has plenty of tools to escape with. Op/Scoundrel does way too much instant-cast and really is annoyed more than anything by having to move, and can even use Cover to disable several positioning tools melee specs use. I'm fine with a freecasting healer doing more healing than players do damage. I'm not fine with a fleeing healer being attacked being able to outheal though, that IS imbalanced. Not to mention this doesn't even factor in tanks' Guards and Taunts. Edited May 15, 2013 by MajinUltima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baedwulf Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Being a strictly DPS player I'd like them to acknowledge the over powered heals, AND TANKS and basically anything else that my character doesn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsakenKing Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) these are my favorite threads on the forums. now if only we can get a remove premades argument going here... /popcorn Edited May 15, 2013 by ForsakenKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajinUltima Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Being a strictly DPS player I'd like them to acknowledge the over powered heals, AND TANKS and basically anything else that my character doesn't do. I love that TOR uses Tanks in a useful PVP capacity. Unfortunately, with healers already being overpowered WITHOUT Guard/Taunt assistance, Tanks just make things more ridiculously unkillable. For the record, I've played max-level PVP on: - Sage - Sorc - Assassin - Shadow - Juggernaut - Guardian - Sentinel - Marauder - Vanguard - Operative I'm quite familiar with how specs and roles work, and am just as familiar with BEING overpowered. I'm not bringing this issue up from the perspective of someone who hasn't experienced both sides of it. I don't heal in PVP because I don't WANT to, I shouldn't be forced onto a bandwagon because the game is imbalanced. I could also exclusively heal spec and be overpowered, but that doesn't make the game fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunez Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Time to chime in, although the topic is pretty much answered. 1) Healing is NOT overpowered 2) Winning teams often consist of pre-mades (this is true) 3) Winning teams are not lop-sided (they have well balanced mechanics) 4) Losing teams are often not balanced . 4a) If your output (dps) cannot outperform the enemy healers, then you're lacking qualified dps . 4b) If your input (healing) cannot outperform your enemy output, then you're lacking qualified healing 5) Do not let rule #4 discourage you. The answers are very quite clear as to what you need to do next: . 5a) You (or your teammates) need better gear, AND / OR . 5b) You (or your teammates) need to re-evaluate the balance of your team, AND / OR . 5c) You are merely being outperformed by a superior opponent. You must increase your learning curve. THis pretty much nails everything on the head. Trust me when I say right now, things are incredibly balanced, with the sole exception being the learning curve of your oponents. If you are being outperformed, you need to ask yourself what are they doing that is outperforming you. Many people use gaming mice and gaming keyboards. I personally use a razor naga mouse, I have 12 thumb buttons, each with their own macro'ed set of rotations or actions. My healing, dps, tanking, etc--- will always outperform those without a gaming mouse, with the exception of those players who are just flat out better than me, and there are indeed, many who are better than me. I hope this response helps you. Please do not blame a class, a skill, or a particular action for the performance of your team. If your team is broken, thiink about ways to fix it. Be a contender, strive for greatness. You can do it, I have faith in you. Edited May 15, 2013 by Lunez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abhaxus Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There is nothing you can say that makes it more obvious you are bad than saying healers are overpowered. Heals are fine, learn to focus. Play a healer, you'll learn how to kill them. I can still take down healers easily on my PT pyro after the nerf. Healing is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalzamon Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Healing need to be nerfed by 30% at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajinUltima Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) 1) Healing is NOT overpowered 1. It mathematically objectively is. 2) Winning teams often consist of pre-mades (this is true) 2. Stacking a disproportinate amount of healers and hybrid healers. 3) Winning teams are not lop-sided (they have well balanced mechanics) 3. Because it is intended that HALF or MORE of a team is healing or off-healing. That is not lop-sided at all if you consider the game is generally designed from the perspective that 1/4 of the players in a group are healing, not half or more. . 4a) If your output (dps) cannot outperform the enemy healers, then you're lacking qualified dps 4. Mathematically untrue. Healing specs outperform DPS by huge margins EXCEPT in cases of AOE inflation, with healing numbers being understated and damage numbers overstated. Not only does healing outstrip damage, the margin is much larger than the objective scoreboards will reflect. This is the typical "I don't care about facts! Healing is balanced because I say so, even when objective mathematical data shows otherwise! You suck at DPS! You're bad! I'm not overpowered! Learn to play!". Really now, I'm not sure who believes it other than those seeking to reinforce their own falsehoods. You are literally objectively mathematically wrong. Play a healer, you'll learn how to kill them. I have played healing and more often healing hybrid specs multiple times. I run away with Kolto Probes up, I don't die, period. The ONLY way I die is literally if my entire team is already dead AND I'm alone AND I'm trapped. It is completely insanely overpowered that I can do that. The problem is, I don't WANT to do that, I want the freedom to actually play specs and be competitive... not be forced to heal because it's overpowered. I can still take down healers easily on my PT pyro after the nerf. Healing is fine. I can 1v1 against almost any spec in the game 95% of the time, while playing any class myself. Healers, DPS, Tanks, doesn't matter. Does that mean every class is perfectly balanced, or that it's just easy to find bad players who wandered off alone? Edited May 15, 2013 by MajinUltima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Its pointless to argue. Healer players will never admit that cross healing is overtuned. Let them rejoice for now. 1.2 will happen again. And then we, DPS guys, will be coming to gloat in your "why healers have been nerfed" threads. I want to see sorc and operative players threatening to quit swtor, if their lolheals will not be unnerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volxen Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Lol, these threads are always so entertaining. 90% of people playing Derps Per Second don't know about focus fire and coordination, and the result is always threads like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyhigh Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Overpowered heals? lol....The heals are what help fights last longer and make PvP more fun and less of a retarded zerg carnival. Learn to play or leave. No one cares that you can't come in with your RP Jedi and 1 hit kill a group of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashuranrx Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I'm fine with a freecasting healer doing more healing than players do damage. I'm not fine with a fleeing healer being attacked being able to outheal though, that IS imbalanced. Maybe because I mainly play a Combat Sentinel and use Transcendance only in PvP, I find no problem sticking to any healers, nor does any of my teammates for that matter. I usually team up with my Scrapper Scoundrel friend in WZ. We mark healers with icons, and just focus the hell out of them, and they drop like flies. Even with multiple healers and tanks on the other team, and with no healer on my team. We have no problem dropping healers, we just do hard switch focus. This is just me and my friend, not a full premade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajinUltima Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Typical troll bait responses. "You suck!" "Learn to play!" Sorry pals, objective data is worth more than your silly little trolling taunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volxen Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Overpowered heals? lol....The heals are what help fights last longer and make PvP more fun and less of a retarded zerg carnival. Learn to play or leave. No one cares that you can't come in with your RP Jedi and 1 hit kill a group of people. Lol, yep. That's exactly what all of these threads boil down to. Seriously, I think a lot of the DPSers who start threads like these should look into Call of Duty. There are no healers in that game and you can mindlessly DPS/zerg all day every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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