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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?


Elfeden

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Hello everyone,

 

I read on many thread this sentence.

Ex : In the KBN's combat spec guide.

If the tank can't hold agro off you in your highest burst opener, it is mathematically irrefutable that it is their fault and not yours.

 

I know tank generate more threat than dps, but Dps can often do more than 1.5x the tank's damage.

The tank have taunt, but they last only 6sec.

Dps can low their aggro but if they don't, it is their fault, not the tank.

 

I want to explain this to my mate but i don't have enought information.

Someone can help me ?

 

 

PS : sorry for bad english

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If the DPS don't know how to drop aggro it's their own *********** fault. With that, if the tank knows he cant hold on their opener. He should time his taunts, and they should time their opener so he can taunt again with single point after their opener.

 

But they (Combat Spec) should use force camo and stop being *********** morons.

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I say this because all tanks have an opening rotation which (baring unbelievably improbable misses) can hold agro against any DPS in the game, even without a guard. For some tanks, it is possible to lose agro for an instant, but the opener can always be timed such that the instant is inconsequential (e.g. less than a few ms). As an example, here is the Shadow/Assassin opener:

 

  1. Pull
  2. Project
  3. Slow Time
  4. Force Breach
  5. Single Taunt
  6. Double Strike
  7. Project
  8. Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw
  9. AoE Taunt

 

There are two points wherein the boss may agro on a high-burst DPS: immediately after the Pull if it misses (which it can do) and at the very final tick of the Telekinetic Throw (if the DPS got lucky crits). In both cases, a taunt is immediately to follow.

 

Assuming equal gear, there's no reason why a shadow tank executing on this opener wouldn't hold agro off of an unguarded combat sentinel bursting their heart out.

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I say this because all tanks have an opening rotation which (baring unbelievably improbable misses) can hold agro against any DPS in the game, even without a guard. For some tanks, it is possible to lose agro for an instant, but the opener can always be timed such that the instant is inconsequential (e.g. less than a few ms). As an example, here is the Shadow/Assassin opener:

 

  1. Pull
  2. Project
  3. Slow Time
  4. Force Breach
  5. Single Taunt
  6. Double Strike
  7. Project
  8. Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw
  9. AoE Taunt

 

There are two points wherein the boss may agro on a high-burst DPS: immediately after the Pull if it misses (which it can do) and at the very final tick of the Telekinetic Throw (if the DPS got lucky crits). In both cases, a taunt is immediately to follow.

 

Assuming equal gear, there's no reason why a shadow tank executing on this opener wouldn't hold agro off of an unguarded combat sentinel bursting their heart out.

 

That being said, juggernaughts have less of a frontloaded aggro and have much lower aggro compared to assassins in the opening seconds of the fight. But you can always tailor your taunts to match the dps, the best taunt is the latest possible taunt without losing aggro (lets say when dps have 125% of the tank threat) or screwing up tank switches. If this is "never" then you're golden, but that's not possible anymore with the 72/75/78 tiers.

Edited by Panzerfire
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Tanks job is to hold threat, so yes it is his fault. That does not mean that DPS can't help, there are threat drops for a reason.

 

Whoever played Guardians before 2.0 knows just how hard holding threat can be though. But even then it was just a question of skill, timely taunts and well executed opener.

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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I'd never lead off with

unless I wanted to engage in maximum trollery, or if it was sanctioned by our raid leader for some reason. For example, on Cartel Warlords Horic this is exactly what all our Gunslingers did do.

 

(Some notes: vital shot is cast in the second GCD so that the Ops dummy doesn't drop aggro while I'm precasting Flyby and Aimed Shot. The maximum burst opener would just be Flyby + Aimed Shot; also Torparse says my Aimed Shot didn't crit for 9.9k, it was just a normal attack for 6k followed by a Trickshot for 4k. Their damage flytext happened to line up such that it appeared to be a 9.9k hit)

 

If a Sniper/Slinger leads off with a precasted Orbital and follows with a 2.5 second Ambush/Aimed Shot and they both crit that will be 15,000 damage administered within 1 second of the engagement, and it will obviously be unlikely that the tank can get control without a taunt. Following soon after with Acquire Target/Illegal mods to boost armor penetration, Speed shot x 2 and Sniper Volley, all while the Sniper/Slinger's Orbital ticks 2 to 3 more times, will probably bring aggro back to the Sniper/Slinger.

 

So be aware of your class's opening threat and the openers of your DPS, especially if you're a Guardian. Shadows have a strong opener (Force Pull, Project with crit buff) and Vanguards have decent, longer-duration opening burst (Battle Focus, or whatever their +25% ranged/tech crit buff is called). Guardians have little in the way of opening threat and have to spend a GCD using Sundering Strike.

 

Even when DPS play maliciously, in general I don't find it hard to keep aggro due to taunt boosting/'fluffing'. Count the ticks of your teammates' Flybys and/or guard the Combat Sentinel. Taunt before you would lose aggro, and then you won't lose aggro... I tend to use taunt at ~6 seconds, AOE taunt at ~12 seconds, and then single taunt again when it's up. This is why it's your fault if you lose aggro: because your taunt is your best threat-generating tool, and it makes it almost impossible for DPS to pull even with precasts.

Edited by MGNMTTRN
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I'd never lead off with
unless I wanted to engage in maximum trollery, or if it was sanctioned by our raid leader for some reason. For example, on Cartel Warlords Horic this is exactly what all our Gunslingers did do.

 

We actually do this a lot in my group. If there are geared sharpshooter/marksman specs in the group, I'll probably pull just a fraction before they do in order to get my pull and project in before their Aimed Shot + Flyby. If I do that, then they essentially won't pull off of me. If no one is sharpshooter spec, I can generally get away with pulling at the instant of the flyby + aimed shot hit. For example:

You'll see agro swap once in this to one of our unguarded gunslingers (right at the end of my Telekinetic Throw), but the taunt is scripted to follow that moment. Edited by KeyboardNinja
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We actually do this a lot in my group. If there are geared sharpshooter/marksman specs in the group, I'll probably pull just a fraction before they do in order to get my pull and project in before their Aimed Shot + Flyby. If I do that, then they essentially won't pull off of me. If no one is sharpshooter spec, I can generally get away with pulling at the instant of the flyby + aimed shot hit. For example:
You'll see agro swap once in this to one of our unguarded gunslingers (right at the end of my Telekinetic Throw), but the taunt is scripted to follow that moment.

 

My group is similar. Unless we only have one, we start every pull with "Queue orbitals in three two one" Then we queue. About 2 seconds later, the tank actually pulls. He uses a couple quick hits, then does the taunt rolling, that provides 12 seconds of "You can't pull off me" At which point we all aggro dump, during those last 3 seconds before he can guarantee the safe zone again.

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We actually do this a lot in my group. If there are geared sharpshooter/marksman specs in the group, I'll probably pull just a fraction before they do in order to get my pull and project in before their Aimed Shot + Flyby. If I do that, then they essentially won't pull off of me. If no one is sharpshooter spec, I can generally get away with pulling at the instant of the flyby + aimed shot hit. For example:
You'll see agro swap once in this to one of our unguarded gunslingers (right at the end of my Telekinetic Throw), but the taunt is scripted to follow that moment.

These are hybrid Slingers so their Aimed Shot's armor penetration is decreased, and you don't pull at the instant of the Flyby + aimed shot at all, you pull at around 0.5 to 1 seconds of the Aimed Shot's 2.5 second cast. The opener of my video would put up a lot more raw damage, because they appear to follow up Aimed shot with Sab Charge (which is essentially a DOT), Shrap Bomb (a DOT), and Shock Charge (which is a DOT).

 

If the tank can't hold agro off you in your highest burst opener, it is mathematically irrefutable that it is their fault and not yours.

With that in mind, I don't think this statement is true in all cases. I don't know where the quote originates from or its context, but if it applies to Vanguards and Guardians I don't see how it could be possible for the other two tank ACs to perform such a feat, even with crit rates hedged in favor of the tank.

Edited by MGNMTTRN
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These are hybrid Slingers so their Aimed Shot's armor penetration is decreased, and you don't pull at the instant of the Flyby + aimed shot at all, you pull at around 0.5 to 1 seconds of the Aimed Shot's 2.5 second cast. The opener of my video would put up a lot more raw damage, because they appear to follow up Aimed shot with Sab Charge (which is essentially a DOT), Shrap Bomb (a DOT), and Shock Charge (which is a DOT).

 

They do lose armor pen and a surge talent, both of which are significant. This is why I didn't need to pull early in the video I linked. When I have a sharpshooter in the raid, I'll generally pull about 1s before their Aimed Shot hits to avoid losing agro before my first taunt. Especially if you insist on Flourish Shotting before you Flyby > Aimed Shot, I would have no trouble holding agro in the face of the opener you linked. Even starting with just the Flyby, a little timing on my part still prevents you from grabbing agro.

 

Incidentally, their Aimed Shot is going to hit at the exact instant that Flyby does, just like in Sharpshooter. You don't get a cast time reduction without procing it, which you can't do before the fight. Flyby > Aimed Shot is an instaburst opener for every spec.

 

Also, Sab Charge is not even slightly a DoT. It's a very heavy hitting instant followed (in hybrid and sabo) by four very hard hitting attacks. In a sense it's a DoT, but if it is it's one of the most damaging DoTs in the game and has a tick duration of just 3 seconds.

 

With that in mind, I don't think this statement is true in all cases. I don't know where the quote originates from or its context, but if it applies to Vanguards and Guardians I don't see how it could be possible for the other two tank ACs to perform such a feat, even with crit rates hedged in favor of the tank.

 

I know a vanguard who can hold agro off my combat sentinel without giving me a guard *and* without taunting in her opener. Guardians don't have quite as much snap threat as shadows, but they're still able to lay it on if they open appropriately:

 

  • Combat Focus
  • Throw (time slightly early)
  • Leap
  • Sweep
  • Guardian Slash + Riposte + Single Taunt
  • Blade Storm
  • Sundering Strike
  • Master Strike
  • AoE Taunt

 

You can move the Single Taunt up after the Sweep and remove the Sundering Strike if you need even sharper snap threat.

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I say this because all tanks have an opening rotation which (baring unbelievably improbable misses) can hold agro against any DPS in the game, even without a guard.

 

You say that and then go on to talk about Assassin, which has the easiest time holding agro. Juggers have a decent chance now that they got saber reflect to help, but powertech tanks do pathetic damage and it's hard to keep up with 3k DPS. I said hard, I should have said nigh impossible. You do run out of taunts and the mismatch in damage increases lately has not done anything to improve the situation.

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You say that and then go on to talk about Assassin, which has the easiest time holding agro. Juggers have a decent chance now that they got saber reflect to help, but powertech tanks do pathetic damage and it's hard to keep up with 3k DPS. I said hard, I should have said nigh impossible. You do run out of taunts and the mismatch in damage increases lately has not done anything to improve the situation.

 

Like I said, I know a vanguard who can hold agro off of my 3.1k-parsing combat sentinel without using a taunt in her opener. If she can do it without a taunt and without maxed gear, it seems extremely improbable that a fully decked out vanguard couldn't do it with taunt fluff.

 

Vanguards do have fewer high threat abilities, but they also have an energy mechanic which is biased toward high snap threat. Their DPS is essentially as good over time as a shadow or a guardian, and they're able to front-load their burst in a way that shadows can't because of Recharge Cells.

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[quote=KeyboardNinja;686524 Guardians don't have quite as much snap threat as shadows, but they're still able to lay it on if they open appropriately:

 

  • Combat Focus
  • Throw (time slightly early)
  • Leap
  • Sweep
  • Guardian Slash + Riposte + Single Taunt
  • Blade Storm
  • Sundering Strike
  • Master Strike
  • AoE Taunt

 

You can move the Single Taunt up after the Sweep and remove the Sundering Strike if you need even sharper snap threat.

 

I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

 

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

 

1. Saber throw

2. Leap + saber reflect on landing

3. Force sweep

4. Guardian slash + riposte

5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus

6. Blade storm

7. Master strike

8. Slash

9. Sundering strike

10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)

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I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

 

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

 

1. Saber throw

2. Leap + saber reflect on landing

3. Force sweep

4. Guardian slash + riposte

5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus

6. Blade storm

7. Master strike

8. Slash

9. Sundering strike

10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)

 

+1 for that opener, I actually stick a Sundering at 4. and combine Stasis with MS But result is the same.

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You can move the Single Taunt up after the Sweep and remove the Sundering Strike if you need even sharper snap threat.

None of my counterpoints really matters because I made a mistake. I assumed KBN was in the 'taunt fluffing implies incompetence' camp for some reason. If you permit taunt boosting/fluffing, then his statement that any tank can hold aggro from pull to death is true.

 

But with that being said, there still were some errors or misrepresentations in KBN's post.

They do lose armor pen and a surge talent, both of which are significant.

They only lose armor penetration. Aimed shot just hits that hard naturally, there's no Aimed Shot surge involved in the Sharpshooter tree.

 

This is why I didn't need to pull early in the video I linked. When I have a sharpshooter in the raid, I'll generally pull about 1s before their Aimed Shot hits to avoid losing agro before my first taunt.

In the video you linked, I can see the first Aimed Shot reticle closing on T6's chest, and immediately after that you hit your pull. That reticle closes at 1.0 seconds of Aimed Shot's cast, so in your video against hybrid slingers, you're pulling 1.5 seconds before they're finishing their Aimed Shot. That being said, it looks like your slingers didn't have their Flyby and Aimed Shots synced within a half second, so I could believe that in general you do pull later. Just not in this video.

 

Especially if you insist on Flourish Shotting before you Flyby > Aimed Shot, I would have no trouble holding agro in the face of the opener you linked. Even starting with just the Flyby, a little timing on my part still prevents you from grabbing agro.

(Some notes: vital shot is cast in the second GCD so that the Ops dummy doesn't drop aggro while I'm precasting Flyby and Aimed Shot. The maximum burst opener would just be Flyby + Aimed Shot...

I guess I wasn't clear. Flourish Shot is just added to simulate the effect of someone else giving armor penetration, that's obviously not a part of my opener when I'm doing 16man operations. And Vital Shot is added to ensure the target dummy doesn't reset while I'm precasting Flyby and Aimed Shot. In an operation setting for maximum burst I would lead with Flyby + Aimed Shot.

 

Also, Sab Charge is not even slightly a DoT. It's a very heavy hitting instant followed (in hybrid and sabo) by four very hard hitting attacks. In a sense it's a DoT, but if it is it's one of the most damaging DoTs in the game and has a tick duration of just 3 seconds.

When I spec as a hybrid slinger and use my relic + Flourish shot and get a crit to give me an approximation of what your hybrid slingers get that video, it deals 7k crit non-dot damage. Non-crit without buffs gives 4.3k damage. That's on par with 2 non-critical ticks/1 critical tick of Full Auto from a Gunnery Commando, or Telekinetic Wave from a Telekinetic Sage. It's somewhat weaker than an Aimed Shot, Commando HIB (ether spec), Assault Vanguard HIB, Demo Round from Gunnery Commando, or a Sage's Turbulence. So while I do agree it's a nice attack and I use it on cooldown when I spec Saboteur, I wouldn't classify it as being 'very heavy hitting'. As DOTs go yes it is one of the hardest-hitting initially and over its full duration.

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I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

 

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

 

1. Saber throw

2. Leap + saber reflect on landing

3. Force sweep

4. Guardian slash + riposte

5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus

6. Blade storm

7. Master strike

8. Slash

9. Sundering strike

10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)

 

This entirely depends on whether or not you are MTing. If I am main-tanking, I never ever use Combat Focus. It just doesn't ever fit in anywhere and I never am low enough on Focus to need it. If I'm OTing then I'm not really worried about snap threat and I'll just throw my saber, leap in, and go through my regular rotation putting as much emphasis on abilities without a Focus Cost (since in those cases, Focus DOES become a huge issue).

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I'm absolutely positive you have your Guardian opener priorities wrong. Starting off, if you open with combat focus you will put yourself with wasted focus points. These are vital to guardians as you know. Additionally unless there is a known mechanic that you need to use saber reflect on within one minute of the opener, it should be included.

 

Based on the highest threat per ability among with getting necessary debuffs on target and generating proper focus, this would be a much better opener with little need to taunt barring an extremely bursty melee dps.

 

1. Saber throw

2. Leap + saber reflect on landing

3. Force sweep

4. Guardian slash + riposte

5. (Taunt if you want to) Hilt strike + combat focus

6. Blade storm

7. Master strike

8. Slash

9. Sundering strike

10. Force push (another taunt if you so desire)

 

How is he wasting any focus?

 

Leap+saber throw + combat focus = full focus bar. At most, one focus wasted from the boss's first attack, but allows

you to proceed with high threat off.

 

 

As for taunts, imo they are to be used but not rotationnaly. Basically I consider it a bad habit to do so, just like if you have high dps and nothing else to do with them, then not using them is a waste. Automatically using them can however also waste them.

 

Btw I find it funny none of you are mentionning stasis. My rotation as a jug tank is roughly at opening if I expect burst:

 

0-enrage

1-Saber throw

2-Force charge (if boss is ranged, insert saber reflect)

3-smash

4-crushing blow/retaliation

5-force scream

6-ravage(retaliation possible at the end)

7-Back hand

8-force choke

9-vicious slash if rage is above 5 or sundering assault otherwise (since choke is ticking)

 

After that its mostly a priority list.

 

At any time there I am free to use taunts if someone pulls, which will happens in a second, so you'll see a ToT blink.

 

Losing threat is not as critical to me than wasting a taunt. You'll still get more threat off that taunt using it after a dps that pulled. The key is making sure no damage is sent their way or barely any.

 

Jug's opening is a lot less easy mode than sins, who just send a massive threat burst of 15-20k there. They also start at full ressource, so they are free to shock/wither/thrash(crit shock, maul or discharge, depending on proc) (shock or FL depending on previous choice.

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Never loosing aggro on a vanguard tank, unless a few misses occur. In most random raids I don't even give guard to the dps, even if he asks for. Most can't manage to pull aggro anyways.

 

When I'm tanking, I make a judgement call based on a quick look of their gear. If I come to the conclusion their chances of pulling off me are negative, then my guard goes to whoever's most likely to get hurt.

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Many dps are just too bad to manage their aggro. On my sent I open with around 6-7k dps and after the first rotation I just use my aggro reduce and then I use it on CD. Never pulling aggro.

 

That's not always enough. The aggro dump is only a 10% drop. Now, think about it this way. Your tank will be sustaining 1100-1200 dps. That comes out to 2400 tps from pure dps. Add in a few high threat abilities, and it's more. But, a dps can sustain 3100-3200 dps, which is 3200 tps. Yes, you might be able to avoid the pull in your burst, but a good tank will be rolling taunts through an opener anyway, just to be safe. Later in the fight though, it can get risky. Especially on a fight like Raptus, where the tank causes reduced threat.

 

However, at that point, unless you have to go balls to the walls to beat an enrage timer, it's not going to kill a dps to pull a little less. For example, that Raptus fight, I'm one of the dps that go without a guard. But, because they get reduced threat, I run a high risk of pulling. Because of that, there's points in that fight where I'm sustaining very little dps, just letting the tanks build some threat.

 

A good tank can cause a lot of threat. A good dps can cause a lot of dps. A good tank and a good dps won't cause any problems. At the end of the day, it's on both of you.

Edited by Torgru
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And finally, if your dps is overgearing you by a lot. You can always go for a 6 chained taunt or 5 chained taunt opening involving both tanks and all their taunts, if mechanics allow it. Hell I remember jugg tanks on Firebrand and Stormcaller NiM (when juggs had awful threat and that fight required max dps) having their melee dps taunt fluff in addition to taking the Firebrand debuff.
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Like I said, I know a vanguard who can hold agro off of my 3.1k-parsing combat sentinel without using a taunt in her opener. If she can do it without a taunt and without maxed gear, it seems extremely improbable that a fully decked out vanguard couldn't do it with taunt fluff.

 

Vanguards do have fewer high threat abilities, but they also have an energy mechanic which is biased toward high snap threat. Their DPS is essentially as good over time as a shadow or a guardian, and they're able to front-load their burst in a way that shadows can't because of Recharge Cells.

 

Well you know a magical vanguard apparently. I know a horse that kinda looks like a unicorn. My point is you can't balance this game based on the theoretically possible that very rarely is achieved by anyone. You have to base balance in a typical player experience.

 

Vanguard DPS is NOT as good as jugger and assassin over time. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

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