Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Bring us back to pre 1.2 standards. Problem solved IMO.

Dear Karsk,

 

If you have ever worked for Bioware developing PVP content and making adjustments to classes and game mechanics, (something you clearly have not), you would know that Bioware is obviously aware of the issue and is working on addressing it.

 

The real problem is that Gunnery/Arsenal is a stationary turret spec that needs to be totally revamped for mobility. A viable solution would make Tracer Missle and Grav Round non-channeled and do less damage, but a bigger burst buff to Railshot and their endcap ability. That way they get more burst and keep the same overall damage, while becoming mobile.

 

The idea is to make these guys mobile instead of stationary. 4m/10m players still have to work on sticking like glue while Gunnery/Arsenal becomes a run'n'gun style of Pyro, without the dots.

[Emphasis added] No and no. Not every AC/class should be mobile Stationary options should exist in more that one class Mercenaries and commandos should remain, primarily, stationary. There is a run an gun choice already. We don't need another one.

Edited November 1, 2012 by DashaAdair

One thing that will help retain the consistency and flavor of commandos is put the Cryo Grenade range back to 30m.

 

For those that built into it, put the knockback back in place. Things that force us to turn and run effectively reduce our offensive capability.

[Emphasis added] No and no. Not every AC/class should be mobile Stationary options should exist in more that one class Mercenaries and commandos should remain, primarily, stationary. There is a run an gun choice already. We don't need another one.

 

Do you have a Merc or Commando that is exclusively middle tree?

A good thread that I hope BW sees, and will start to communicate on class balance with us players.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=550337

[Emphasis added] No and no. Not every AC/class should be mobile Stationary options should exist in more that one class Mercenaries and commandos should remain, primarily, stationary. There is a run an gun choice already. We don't need another one.

 

if it is supposed to be stationary then it needs the same tools of Sniper/gunslinger.

Edited November 1, 2012 by xxIncubixx

if it is supposed to be stationary then it needs the same tools of Sniper/gunslinger.

 

It was, but they took them away in 1.4. Some mobility crazy developer made commandos schizophrenic. The change to Cryo Grenade and, for those that developed it, Knockback was a terrbile, inconsistent design choice. I said it before 1.4 came out and nothing in my experience so far makes me see it any differently. In fact the daily missions where the Esh-kha and Gand are thowing Cryo Grenades and stuns at 30m remind me of just how bad a decision they made as I run up to 10m to stun them back.

 

I put Knockback on my Stock Strike just because it dovetailed so nicely with the concept of being sationary. The orignal commando design concept was spot on.

 

They didn't touch the range of Gunsligers because they were stationary. They should have kept commandos the same for the same reason.

Edited November 1, 2012 by DashaAdair

Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

ALL OF YOU ****. We got a response! take a minute and let that settle in. 600 pages and we got a response. Be glad they are finally taking notice instead of STILL ************ that they didn't give you ENOUGH of a response you were hoping for. Its better than silence.

 

That said, there are a ton of good ideas on the Merc/commando forums about fixes for survivability from movement speed increases to new defensive cooldowns. Personally Power Overrides in the Merc tree is a waste of space and can be rolled into other talents and can be replaced with someone actually useful to arsenal. Pyro Merc could honestly use a little love. Bodyguard is fine as far as i'm concerned.

 

Take away from that short post that we actually have HOPE where there previously was none.

Jeez, don't be ungrateful. Nothing is set in stone yet. They might have a few good ideas, they might not. You don't know that yet. Neither do I. Maybe we should wait on some patchnotes before disparaging them.

Merc/Mando dps is fine. I don't know why you guys are complaining, they're not supposed to be the best. 1v1 class, shadow dps tank hybrids are. (And their imperial equivalent.). There was a merc on my old server who was the best I've seen yet. Everyone hated fighting this guy because he was so good. He didn't complain like a lot of mercs do today, he did the best with his class and took it to its maximum potential. Same with a commando on my current server. He's not the best 1v1er, but if you don't notice that he's targeting you you'll be dead in merely a few seconds. Snipers are similar. Combat/carnage dual weilders are similar. Not the best survivability, not the best duelists, but if they catch you in a group you're going to melt. Many people fail to understand that this is a team oriented game, whether it be ops or pvp. That is the function of this class, team support. The good ones know this and excel because of it. Others expect to be lone wolves them complain when they die. Learn to play as a team and you'll notice that you survive longer than if you were trying to 1v1 someone.

Merc/Mando dps is fine. I don't know why you guys are complaining, they're not supposed to be the best. 1v1 class, shadow dps tank hybrids are. (And their imperial equivalent.). There was a merc on my old server who was the best I've seen yet. Everyone hated fighting this guy because he was so good. He didn't complain like a lot of mercs do today, he did the best with his class and took it to its maximum potential. Same with a commando on my current server. He's not the best 1v1er, but if you don't notice that he's targeting you you'll be dead in merely a few seconds. Snipers are similar. Combat/carnage dual weilders are similar. Not the best survivability, not the best duelists, but if they catch you in a group you're going to melt. Many people fail to understand that this is a team oriented game, whether it be ops or pvp. That is the function of this class, team support. The good ones know this and excel because of it. Others expect to be lone wolves them complain when they die. Learn to play as a team and you'll notice that you survive longer than if you were trying to 1v1 someone.

 

So you are saying Mercs shouldn't be top DPS and shouldn't be able to 1V1 either. So we are just supposed to be terrible all around then hmm?

 

Cute coming from a hybrid Sin.

that is the function of this class, team support.

 

We're worse than most - if not all - other classes at that, too.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Chaoskyx

Merc/Mando dps is fine. I don't know why you guys are complaining, they're not supposed to be the best. 1v1 class, shadow dps tank hybrids are. (And their imperial equivalent.). There was a merc on my old server who was the best I've seen yet. Everyone hated fighting this guy because he was so good. He didn't complain like a lot of mercs do today, he did the best with his class and took it to its maximum potential. Same with a commando on my current server. He's not the best 1v1er, but if you don't notice that he's targeting you you'll be dead in merely a few seconds. Snipers are similar. Combat/carnage dual weilders are similar. Not the best survivability, not the best duelists, but if they catch you in a group you're going to melt. Many people fail to understand that this is a team oriented game, whether it be ops or pvp. That is the function of this class, team support. The good ones know this and excel because of it. Others expect to be lone wolves them complain when they die. Learn to play as a team and you'll notice that you survive longer than if you were trying to 1v1 someone.

 

+1 on your post. MInus on 1v1 shadow/assassin tank-sins, I'm biased towards Anni/Watch builds.

That is the function of this class, team support. The good ones know this and excel because of it. Others expect to be lone wolves them complain when they die. Learn to play as a team and you'll notice that you survive longer than if you were trying to 1v1 someone.

 

No class should be "by design" the best 1 vs 1 class. Naturally, one class must fall into this category, but this should be marginal. We're talking about within a +/-5% general effectivness. The "leading" 1 vs 1 class wouldn't be the one's the Dev's said "Alright peeps, don't forget X class is suppose to be the best 1 vs 1'er!"

 

The exception of the +/-5% of course, would be a support class, as they should act as a force multiplier. A healer, though poor at 1 vs 1, starts to shine in 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3. Let's say alone a healer is worth .75. .75 vs 1, the one is going to win. Yet they add .25 to every team mate. So in 2 vs 2, it's now (.75+1.25) 2 vs 2. In 3 vs 3, it's (.75+1.25+1.25) 3.25 vs. 3... and so on.

 

A tank functions much the same. While they're not great 1 vs 1, in 2 vs 2 and up they multiply the effectiveness of every team mate around them.

 

Brining this back into the discussion, saying a dps Commando/Merc is suppose to function as Support is a joke. They are not a force multiplier, lacking abilities to buff/protect/heal the other units in their team. Any Dps can "support" another, but in the terms of a 2 vs 2, why have 1 weak and one strong dps, then you can have 2 strong?

 

In order for Commando's to be a justified "support dps" role, they need 1 of 2 things. Either:

 

1. Some kind of group buffing abilities (damage up, defense up, speed up, or even subtle things like +team accuracy, +team armor penetration, +team alacrity)

 

2. Increased damage. Keep their ****** survivability, but make them -hurt- till they're promptly dispatched. I mean -hurt alot.-

 

Personally, I'd rather we receive mostly defensive tools to bring us in-line with the other dps. I see this argument from mauraders when they justify their cool downs. A commando either needs deal enough damage between deaths to be effective, or it needs defenses to stay alive long enough to deal damage effectively.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Its well and good to say these things and admit it but with out a action they are just words.

For a while I have been replying to many threads about the Commando/Merc AC in support of where it is now, with what I thought were some pretty good ideas and techniques for the class. I have always been very successful from a DPS perspective, and by fighting from the edges vs. being on top of objectives, I've usually survived fairly well enough until I had to get in the mix or been jumped, where I would admittedly, die rather more quickly than some other classes. Perhaps I've been, as I've seen someway say "a great player wasted on a poor class.."

 

However, I have to say even I have become disillusioned. While I am happy to see Bioware is looking into our "escapability," I have to say the idea of a commando being very effective at LOS and pillar hugging 1v1 is laughable. it actually makes me think of some encounters with Sorcs I have had lately.. Being able to root and force speed around a pillar 15m away and dropping an instant self heal is good escapability... Being able to walk around a pillar and start your casted self heal just as that melee rounds the corner and ravages you is not!

 

It really does seem that all other classes have both better ways of either A) keeping you in thier kill zone via roots, snares, leaps, etc. or B) escaping from an encounter that is going the wrong way via damage reduction cooldowns, stealth exiting combat, roots, snares and force speed away.

 

I think what really killed it for me was that I used to believe our AoE (even if it is channeled) was awesome. Tech Override > Plasma Grenade > Mortar Volley. About 6k+ in damage each to 3 or 4 targets in about 4.5 seconds, and I can do it every 30 seconds (2 mins for the tech override though to make plasma instant). But then: Smash! Same damage. Instantly. Uninterruptible. Every 15 seconds or less. And the leap effectively makes it a 10m ranged ability.

 

Really?

Edited November 2, 2012 by iamef

Merc/Mando dps is fine. I don't know why you guys are complaining, they're not supposed to be the best. 1v1 class, shadow dps tank hybrids are. (And their imperial equivalent.). There was a merc on my old server who was the best I've seen yet. Everyone hated fighting this guy because he was so good. He didn't complain like a lot of mercs do today, he did the best with his class and took it to its maximum potential. Same with a commando on my current server. He's not the best 1v1er, but if you don't notice that he's targeting you you'll be dead in merely a few seconds. Snipers are similar. Combat/carnage dual weilders are similar. Not the best survivability, not the best duelists, but if they catch you in a group you're going to melt. Many people fail to understand that this is a team oriented game, whether it be ops or pvp. That is the function of this class, team support. The good ones know this and excel because of it. Others expect to be lone wolves them complain when they die. Learn to play as a team and you'll notice that you survive longer than if you were trying to 1v1 someone.

 

No, just no... Seriously where do you people come up with this stuff... I will attempt to be polite. If a class cannot hold it's own in a 1v1 or at the very least survive and or prolong it's death effectively the class is clearly gimped, useless, crippled and a crutch, you might as well NOT bring the Mando/Merc and instead replace the wasted spot with a viable class that can excel adequately at the designated role.

 

The people you describe as "competent Mandos/Mercs" are either stubborn or simply chose not to reroll/quit yet they could undeniably do MUCH, MUCH better as another Adv Class. ANY Mando/Merc regardless of skill, experience and or gear will fold under the proper pressure, even if it's just 1v1; I've watched the best, multi gladiator Mandos/Mercs, destroyed by pretty much any other equally skilled class (other multi gladiators that were fortunate enough to not roll the dysfunctional and useless class that are known as Mandos/Mercs) in both 1v1 and Ranked team play. To claim we are support and or if we're not noticed we can destroy someone is just plain ignorant, dumb, awkward and simply has no place in a competitive PvP environment. Healers and Tanks is what this game deems as support, we provide weak heals and nothing else as DPS, that is not support that is a gimped class design with weak heals on the side that is preposterously easy to shut down.

 

I am willing to bet you don't play a Mando/Merc nor know very much at all about them so please just forget about this thread and hope no one else jumps on your poorly thought out post and ignorant claims. If for some awkward reason you chose to stick around, I have a question for you to answer: If a DPS Spec is not meant to do high DPS nor is meant to be able to hold it's on in a 1v1 then W.T.F is it meant to do? A DPS Mando/Merc has weak off heals, poor CC, little control, and is preposterously susceptible to every snare, root, and CC and interrupt out there, not to mention we don't have the defenses to justify such an atrocious lack of tools, we're slightly less squishy than a Sage/Sorc yet lack an indescribable amount of tools because for some reason Bioware thinks "heavy armor" makes a difference.

+1 on your post. MInus on 1v1 shadow/assassin tank-sins, I'm biased towards Anni/Watch builds.

 

That may be, but I've yet to find a Mara/sent that can defeat a good kinetics/dps hybrid. I play watchman and am among the top sents on my server, and none of us can. The bad tank spec/dps gear hybrids sure, but good ones, absolutely not. Bear in mind this is only for assassins/shadows, not vanguards/guardians and their counterparts. There's also only two who use this spec that can always win, the others don't play it to its potential and as such die as well. If you've managed to do what i and the other sentinels on my server couldn't, then please do share.

 

To the person complaining about 1v1, I have no issue 1v1ing anyone with the one player exception above, does that mean that all other classes are broken? Or is it a "that's because sentinels are overpowered" excuse?

 

And to that clever little fellow on the previous page, I'm not a tankasin, I'm a watchman.

Edited November 2, 2012 by PoliteAssasin

That may be, but I've yet to find a Mara/sent that can defeat a good kinetics/dps hybrid. I play watchman and am among the top sents on my server, and none of us can. The bad tank spec/dps gear hybrids sure, but good ones, absolutely not. Bear in mind this is only for assassins/shadows, not vanguards/guardians and their counterparts. There's also only two who use this spec that can always win, the others don't play it to its potential and as such die as well. If you've managed to do what i and the other sentinels on my server couldn't, then please do share.

 

To the person complaining about 1v1, I have no issue 1v1ing anyone with the one player exception above, does that mean that all other classes are broken? Or is it a "that's because sentinels are overpowered" excuse?

 

And to that clever little fellow on the previous page, I'm not a tankasin, I'm a watchman.

 

I enjoy that there's been little response to the refuting of the "Commando is support Dps claim" but random, offtopic rambling over mauraders/sins.

 

As for the 1 vs 1 comment:

 

While I have a small personal bias against muaraders/sents, the answer is pretty simple. Mauraders/Sents are a solid class with a wide array of tools, mobility, Cd's, and attacks. If you're beating most other people, we have to assume it's because you're good at your class. Now...

 

Go roll a Merc, play both Arsenal and Pyro, and come back and tell us you still have no problem with all but one spec. $20 bucks says that won't be the case. What's being observed is players, with multiple geared toons, almost all agree that of their toons, Mercs/commando's fare the worst. We're talking players who tank, heal, ranged dps, and melee dps. If you listen close, you'll even hear things like "Yes, I can do alright on my merc. I can do -better- on..."

 

Myself, the amount of survivablity and damage I can put out on my BM geared sniper far exceeds my dps Commando. It's not rocket science.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

So mercs are like Nick Cage movies, either he was really bad or he did a good job, but you can probably find somebody else that could do it better

 

 

Not going to lie this sounded a lot better in my head

Can we, like, stick to complaining about commandos and mercs? Arguing whether maras or assassins are better 1v1ers in this thread is like arguing whether a pie or a cake tastes better while you're eating dog food. Edited November 2, 2012 by Chaoskyx

Can we, like, stick to complaining about commandos and mercs? Arguing whether maras or assassins are better 1v1ers in this thread is like arguing whether a pie or a cake tastes better while you're eating dog food.

 

It's relevant as its talking about roles of each class and their respective counters.

Give me a slow somthing similar to sages force slow and the operatives tendon thing not attached to our aoe heal(talented) our full auto (talented).Lower the fliping cast time on our mez from 2 secs to 1 sec alacrity shouldnt affect it.Change techoveride to a 1min or 45sec cd no idea why its 2 mins....WE also have the longest cd on our kb, its 30sec untalented.

 

For gunnery and arsenal make full auto and unload uninterruptible. and change that crappy talent that lowers the cast time on adv med probe or increases the damage on Hib ( find it stupid that it consumes the buff if u use one cant do both . ) Also change the adv med probe, to Med probe adv med probe heals for a small amount unless u crit or ur a medic. Lasty while standing still they should have a straight 3% or 5% damage reduction plus the talent that gives 5% damage reduction from casting grav or tracer.

 

For Assault give them a better way to manage ammo not sure how to do this exactly but I feel as if I burn thru ammo alot faster then a vangaurd, prob b/c i dont have a 100% chance to proc my dot on hammer shot:rolleyes:. also remove the talent degauss(removes roots when shield is activated and add a 1point talent that lets them use Charged Bolts or Power Shot while moving for 15sec 1min to 1min-30sec cd.

 

 

I really love my Commando but it gets annoying when I know im missing key moves that should be on my class already:( we just got our intterupt after half a year...It used to be impossible for a group with 3 commandos to do Ironfist early in the game, unlike now when ppl can just take the damage:p

Edited November 2, 2012 by Lalainnia

O and we also have the worst potential with hybrid specs...just saying..

How about we stay on subject. For THOSE OF US WHO PLAY THIS CLASS and have some ideas that will help it, let's offer those ideas. My ideas for escapability are as follows:

 

Stockstrike gives you a "Hold the Line" ability or a sprint. A lot of people want the knockback back. I don't. The reason being is you can't always knockback players. For example, often when I get lept to by a Knight I will perform my concussion charge which will do nothing. So I sit there slowed and get eaten alive. This will give me the ability to move out of melee range. However, the Knight will still have the ability to stun me and stay in melee range. Thus this move is not overpowered, but still helpful.

 

I also want to address damage.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on this, but I think Gunnery will be solid with escapability. I think assault needs help though. Vanguard Assault is much stronger than Commando because they proc HIB much more often. One can argue that we have distance on our side, but Vanguards have good tools to keep opponents within range. I do mad damage on my 50 Vanguard because there are 2 instant abilities to proc HIB. If BW were to make Charged Bolts proc HIB as soon as you start casting, such as it works with Full Auto, it would fix the spec in my opinion.

 

These two fixes would make Commandos on board with the rest of the classes for rateds.