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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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So you previous suggestion that premades do not have any special advantage compared to PUG's only applied to a NON-GROUP situation? :rolleyes:

 

I'll try from beginning (trying to ignore the fact that you ignored my whole post and trying to pin-point me on one sentence)

8 man pug has no real disadvantage against 8 man premade.

disadvantage begins when 4 of pug players aren't trying to win.

with 8 man premade you don't invite players who don't try. They are not always pro or elite, or good for that matter, but they try as they are part of a group.

with 8 man pug, you have no control who gets there. like my example from yesturday when a sniper, in 15 minute voidstar did total 7k damage.

difference with mike tyson example, is it will take 10 minutes and some will of that sniper to do some real damage, where it would take 15 years for school kid to get into Tyson's league.

Edited by Atramar
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I'll try from beginning (trying to ignore the fact that you ignored my whole post and trying to pin-point me on one sentence)

8 man pug has no real disadvantage against 8 man premade.

 

See blizzard statement about 8 man pug actually being at a huge disadvantage.

 

I'll take the word of professionals who do this for a living over some random forum poster. No offense.

 

The rest of your post basically states a PUG has no disadvantage compared to a premade if the PUG performs like a premade.

 

Well, DUH. :rolleyes:

Edited by Sharee
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See blizzard statement about 8 man pug actually being at a huge disadvantage.

 

I'll take the word of professionals who do this for a living over some random forum poster. No offense.

 

I don't see blizzard logo on SWTOR

non taken, it takes more to offend me :rolleyes:

 

again, the part of my post which you ignored, there is idea of 'dummy league' and matching with lose-win ratio.

Edited by Atramar
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I don't see blizzard logo on SWTOR

 

Irrelevant. Both games have the same issue of PUG's being stomped by premades. If Blizzard says this drives casual players away from PvP, it is just as true for other MMO's, including SWTOR.

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Irrelevant. Both games have the same issue of PUG's being stomped by premades. If Blizzard says this drives casual players away from PvP, it is just as true for other MMO's, including SWTOR.

 

not irrelevant.

most evil premades in swtor are 4 mans-3mans. it's not full group. 8 man shoundl't happen tho.

gear is mostly irrelevant - there is not much gear advantage - more it's disadvantage if you go naked and unaugmented.

gameplay is not complicated and WZs are not big.

and swtor is not blizzard biggest mmo.

 

from always pug perspective, most games I've seen lost, are in fact lost by stupid actions, not won by other team.

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not irrelevant.

most evil premades in swtor are 4 mans-3mans. it's not full group. .

 

Half team premade against a full pug causes the same problem. If it didn't, this would not be the biggest thread on the PvP forum.

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Half team premade against a full pug causes the same problem.

 

it doesn't. I've seen many 4 mans failed to win against full pugs.

4 man premade can be super pro, but if other 4 are tools, it's gonna fall apart.

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When one side needs stars aligned, no matter how many, and the other side doesn't, that by itself is a problem.

 

nope. team with less stupid will win, doesn't matter which side it is.

and now to the point.

how you would fix this.

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nope. team with less stupid will win, doesn't matter which side it is.

 

But the team that is premade does not have to rely on luck to have good composition.

The team that is assembled randomly does.

This by itself gives the former a huge advantage before the match even started.

 

Why do i even have to tell you such basic things?

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But the team that is premade does not have to rely on luck to have good composition.

The team that is assembled randomly does.

This by itself gives the former a huge advantage before the match even started.

 

Why do i even have to tell you such basic things?

 

yes, premade has less chance to get stupid in their pvp squad.

you can't heal stupid.

 

you are not telling me basic things, you are ignoring my whole posts and pin pointing me on single sentences, which doesnt make sense.

 

composition of 4 man is not advantage over 8 man group.

Edited by Atramar
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yes, premade has less chance to get stupid in their pvp squad.

you can't heal stupid.

 

you are not telling me basic things, you are ignoring my whole posts and pin pointing me on single sentences, which doesnt make sense.

 

I am replying to those parts of your posts that i disagree with. If you keep telling me that premades do not have an advantage over PUG's because your father's uncle's brother saw a premade lose to a PUG once last autumun, don't be surprised when i object.

 

At least that seems to be out of the way now. As you said, premades have less chance to get bad players in their squad(in fact they have a complete control over whether they do or do not get such players), giving them a distinct advantage over PUG's.

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I am replying to those parts of your posts that i disagree with. If you keep telling me that premades do not have an advantage over PUG's because your father's uncle's brother saw a premade lose to a PUG once last autumun, don't be surprised when i object.

 

At least that seems to be out of the way now. As you said, premades have less chance to get bad players in their squad(in fact they have a complete control over whether they do or do not get such players), giving them a distinct advantage over PUG's.

 

Think we have dissagreement on wording, You say premade has advantage, when I say pug is in disadvantage of having more chance of *stupid* - but the fault is not on premade or pug side, fault is on the players who don't try to win but still que. (also, 4 man premade doesn't have full control over *stupid*)

Never the less, we just made 2 pages :eek:

Edited by Atramar
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Hey, i organized a highschool boxing match the other week, and guess what, the participants were whining that i put Mike Tyson on the roster!

 

I mean,

it seems the only thing some of these kids hate more than losing is improving themselves. Makes you wonder why they box in the first place. That or they are arrogant enough to believe they cannot improve further. Or prideful enough that they should win regardless of their own skill.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Terrible example, two reasons:

 

1) From a tactical viewpoint, because it actually undermines your own position.

 

If you have solo-only, there's nothing to stop Mike Tyson entering solo, getting drawn against your high-schoolers, and proceeding to hospitalise them.

 

Your example actually argues for rmatchmaking, because that way Mike Tyson's aren't pitted against high-schoolers. Then you'd have matches at various levels where ability is approximately equal. An open solo-only queue fails to do this and will still see people getting roflstomped by mismatches.

 

2) The difference between players in SWTOR PvP isn't comparable to Mike Tyson v High Schoolers.

 

A fully-grown Mike Tyson has resourvces of physical power and training that the child can't possibly match. In SWTOR PvP with Bolster, characters start much closer to the maximum power, and have the ability to quickly match veterans in raw power, so that contests are decided on skill and other elements of good play rather than a mismatch in raw power.

 

Quick additional edit: Just want to emphasise that I don't think letting Mike Tyson brutalise highchoolers (SWTOR stylee) is a great idea - I just don't think solo-only-queue is the solution to people not enjoying one-sided matches. It would introduce new problems and degrade play without properly fixing the mismatched games.

 

We aren't going to get cross-server, so pining for that is a waste of space, thus as often said in this very thread the best answer is a rating based on performance (a simple variety of win/loss record accounting for rating of opposition) and attempting to match similar groups, with the boundaries swiftly expanding to avoid queue times becoming unacceptable.

Edited by Wainamoinen
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Sometimes ya'll just need to
.

 

Mike Tyson.... honestly.

 

to be fair, I'm would scared of highschool kids then Mike Tyson...Kids these days have guns and knifes... Mike Tyson would atleast stop hitting me when I'm down... ;)

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That's a straw man argument. No-one is demanding to have fun... *snip*

 

I'm just gonna stop here. We're never going to agree who should pay the price for personal choices, and who is responsible for making sure players have fun and/or play as intended.

 

So if we allow the solo-queuer to avoid groups, the price of that choice will fall on the regular queue as a whole...

 

...but if that player leaves the game altogether, the price of that choice will NOT fall on the regular queue as a whole?:rolleyes:

 

Just think about it. As long as the player won't face your premade willingly, it doesn't matter one iota whether you allow him his solo-toggle or whether he just quits. Your queue will suffer the same. But the game as a whole will suffer way more if players outright quit, instead of just playing the way they want.

 

Over and over I have said:

 

Matchmaking.

Matchmaking.

Matchmaking.

Matchmaking with a frickin' laser beam attached to the top of its frickin' head.

 

The solution of -Matchmaking- keeps the PuG, Group, Casual, Invested, Ewok Lover, and Sith Spawn relatively happy. It balances groups, divides (softly) people by something that -actually- effects gameplay, keeps the competition about level (room to learn!) and at the same time, keeps queue's as shorter. It has the -least- amount of players unable to play at once.

 

On the rare occasion matchmaking fails to find an alternative to a heavily lopsided match... :confused: Nothing prevents the player who isn't up for "something they know isn't fun" from ducking out of a match via "Leave Warzone."

 

Hell, I'm the one who suggested the queue pop should -warn- players what they're getting into by Queue type (Full PuG, Mixed, Full-Group) -and- Skill/Rating Match Percentage, so they can decide before wasting time loading in whether the match sounds right for them.

 

I'm also the one who agreed when suggested that a heavily lopsided match should give -less- rewards to the favored team (upon a win, defeat always remains the same).

 

:( I feel like I'm talking till I'm blue in the face and almost anyone I'm "debating" with ignores all the pro-casual, pro-game, pro-pvp, pro-everyone crap I spew out and focuses on the one or two "perceived negative" comments (or parts of comments).

 

Do I need a frickin' reiteration of all my arguments/beliefs/points every time I post?

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Terrible example, two reasons:

 

1) From a tactical viewpoint, because it actually undermines your own position.

 

If you have solo-only, there's nothing to stop Mike Tyson entering solo, getting drawn against your high-schoolers, and proceeding to hospitalise them.

 

But, this is a team game. If team compositions are totally random (PUG vs PUG) then yes, one game a tyson on team A might make team B lose, but another game the tyson will be on team B, and yet another game both teams will get one. The random nature of solo queueing will ensure every participant will have his share of wins, and losses, like it should be.

 

Your example actually argues for rmatchmaking, because that way Mike Tyson's aren't pitted against high-schoolers. Then you'd have matches at various levels where ability is approximately equal. An open solo-only queue fails to do this and will still see people getting roflstomped by mismatches.

 

Oh, but i do not oppose matchmaking at all! In fact i proposed a skill-based matchmaking system myself back in the thread, where all individual players are assigned hidden(win/loss based) rating and then the server tries to balance the overall ratings of the two teams to be roughly the same.

 

2) The difference between players in SWTOR PvP isn't comparable to Mike Tyson v High Schoolers.

 

A fully-grown Mike Tyson has resourvces of physical power and training that the child can't possibly match. In SWTOR PvP with Bolster, characters start much closer to the maximum power, and have the ability to quickly match veterans in raw power, so that contests are decided on skill and other elements of good play rather than a mismatch in raw power.

 

I simply used that as an example of a grossly unbalanced match-up. Obviously the exact reason why Tyson would beat a highschooler are different from the exact reason a premade would beat a PUG. That's not the point. The point is that both matchups should never happen in the firstplace.

 

Quick additional edit: Just want to emphasise that I don't think letting Mike Tyson brutalise highchoolers (SWTOR stylee) is a great idea - I just don't think solo-only-queue is the solution to people not enjoying one-sided matches.

 

I'm not a fan of a hard-coded solo queue either. My order of preference is

 

1, individual skill-based matchmaking

2, toggle allowing solo-queuers to avoid groups(optional, not always-on)

3, always-on separate queue for players who join solo (only if the above two are impossible for some reason)

Edited by Sharee
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Win/lose ratio, my thoughts:

scenario 1:

32 people in que: 16 pugs, 2 premade high ratio win, 2 premade low ratio win.

how it could match people -

1 wz 1 premade high rate premade + 4 high rate pugs vs 1 high premade vs high rade pugs

2nd wz 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs vs 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs.

or

1wz 1 premade hi + 1 premade low vs 1 premade hi + 1 premade low

2wz pugs vs pugs matched to have same avarage win/lose ratio

 

scenario2:

16 people in que - one 4 man hi rate 12 random pugs

wz hi rate premade with low rate pugs vs avg rate pugs.

 

cons: people who lose all the time and know nothing of their class (being often reason why team lost) will get carried eventually by hi rate premade (and think they'r good)

pros:less chance of '20 ques in a row with *stupid* always losing' kind of a day.

 

thoughts?

legacy wide ratio or character ratio?

Edited by Atramar
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Win/lose ratio, my thoughts:

scenario 1:

32 people in que: 16 pugs, 2 premade high ratio win, 2 premade low ratio win.

how it could match people -

1 wz 1 premade high rate premade + 4 high rate pugs vs 1 high premade vs high rade pugs

2nd wz 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs vs 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs.

or

1wz 1 premade hi + 1 premade low vs 1 premade hi + 1 premade low

2wz pugs vs pugs matched to have same avarage win/lose ratio

 

scenario2:

16 people in que - one 4 man hi rate 12 random pugs

wz hi rate premade with low rate pugs vs avg rate pugs.

 

cons: people who lose all the time and know nothing of their class (being often reason why team lost) will get carried eventually by hi rate premade (and think they'r good)

pros:less chance of '20 ques in a row with *stupid* always losing' kind of a day.

 

thoughts?

legacy wide ratio or character ratio?

 

The hitch in the plan is that there are 2 factions. In a low population scenario where you literally only have enough for 2 games, matchmaking will do nothing. The chances of actually having 16 of each faction queuing is slim if 32 total are queuing and then the probably of an even match existing between them is even lower.

 

But, in high population situations, this scenario works out very well. The other positive, is at least you get games to pop in the low population scenario, whereas a solo queue may not have the right balance to get 2 games going (one more solo or grouper and only one game or no game pops).

 

I think at this point most of the NA PvPers have transferred a toon to either Bastion or POT5 and if they haven't, then I'm sure they are feeling the queue difference now. I'd like to find a solution to everyone's scenario, but with the PvP population being focused in these areas, I think any attempt to improve matches will have to be focused on the situation on these two servers.

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The hitch in the plan is that there are 2 factions. In a low population scenario where you literally only have enough for 2 games, matchmaking will do nothing. The chances of actually having 16 of each faction queuing is slim if 32 total are queuing and then the probably of an even match existing between them is even lower.

 

But, in high population situations, this scenario works out very well. The other positive, is at least you get games to pop in the low population scenario, whereas a solo queue may not have the right balance to get 2 games going (one more solo or grouper and only one game or no game pops).

 

I think at this point most of the NA PvPers have transferred a toon to either Bastion or POT5 and if they haven't, then I'm sure they are feeling the queue difference now. I'd like to find a solution to everyone's scenario, but with the PvP population being focused in these areas, I think any attempt to improve matches will have to be focused on the situation on these two servers.

 

I'm wondering if those 2 servers having an even more healthy ranked scene will further mute the issue in the first place.

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See blizzard statement about 8 man pug actually being at a huge disadvantage.

 

I'll take the word of professionals who do this for a living over some random forum poster. No offense.

 

:

 

^ exactly.

 

How calls guys, who use non-game software which provide for them significant advantage over other players in pvp?

 

Hackers. Cheaters. Exploiters. :mad:

 

Premaders used software voice-teamspeak, which make HUGE advantage in objective-based game.

 

Honest solo-queue players dont want play versus cheaters and exploiters.

Honest solo-queue players want playing fair game, only with/versus other honest solo players.

 

Lets cheaters and exploiters from premades who used non-game software for their advantage in game plays each other, and all their cheat advantage will be annihilate in this case. :o

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