Yup, the next time people will cry for class balance they should remember these changes, all classes are getting nerfed quite a bit.

 

No, just ranged. Melee is being promoted by exclusion from these penalties.

No, just ranged. Melee is being promoted by exclusion from these penalties.

 

Totally agree. Especially when it relates to a Gunslinger. All we do is DPS for crying out loud.

Thx for the update Was getting quite anxious to see what the nerf would be for us.

Changes seems fine to me. Did a quick calculation on a few bossparses of mine and in general my dps would drop by 4-6% depending the bossfight.

 

However, and please clarify this.

1 - Why do you/bioware think we have to much energy?

2 - If you think we are 'swimming' in to much energy why only reduce the energy gain by 2 energy per 18 seconds?

 

Our rotation is currently energy negative. A simplified rotation below. If I use this basic rotation I run out of energy pretty fast. If I would use flyby as a filler ..........

1st block = Speedshot --> incendiairy grenade --> shock charge --> Sabotage --> thermal nade

2nd block = Speedshot --> incendiairy grenade --> vital shot --> explosive charge --> any filler beside flurry

 

Without taking alacrity into account

1st block = speedshot+inc nade + schock charge + sabotage + thermal nade

costs 20+15+10+15+0 = 60

gains = 5 energy per second x 9 seconds = 45

1st block costs us 15 energy

 

2nd block = speedshot + inc nade + vital shot+ explosive charge + thermal nade

costs 20+15+15+15+15 = 80

gains

5 energy per second x 9 seconds = 45

cont charge 4x 5 energy = 20

total gains = 65

2nd block costs us 15 energy.

 

This means I am currently losing about 1,5 energy per second which means I can only sustain my normal rotation once without dropping below 70%. The next rotation I HAVE to either pop my coolhead / illegal mods or add in a flurry. This is truly the case for the more usual opening rotations.

Now there might be changes in the above rotation during opsfights but in general our energy output vs gains wouldn't change.

 

So where exactly are we swimming in energy?

These changes seem pretty reasonable but I'm not a veteran at Engineering, in pvp(my primary swtor activity) I mostly play MM since it's super easy to play, at least in terms of not worrying about reapplying dots.

Slow from 75% to 50%. It's still way too much slow...when you see opposing team is only 2-3 mercs/2-3 snipers and 1 tank +1-2 sorcs. As they can perma spam it in PVP

Changes of damage and AoE are reasonable but as detailed above already the energy change was not. Also I am curious what the point of snipe is in this spec as you do bring it up and there are passives for it but right now you do not use snipe in the rotation. Also, BW be nice to see the optimal rotation that is swimming in energy. Edited July 3, 2017 by FerkWork

So basically this decreases the tactical value of the unit considerably, especially for those players who go to the trouble to learn both the class and all the maps for PVP, and at the same time makes energy management needlessly complex by encouraging less-powerful attacks not usually performed in the most effective rotation.

 

Just made Elite Warlord on my Eng Sniper yesterday, and see no reason to ever play this class in Regs again, as 100% of the leadership role has been cut. When Plasma Probe is denying a safe cap is the only time I feel comfortable calling out near-term tactics and longer strategic instructions. Without it, I am not going to talk at all while holding a cap, with just my "Inc X" cued up in the text window, for fear of getting stunned and then watching helpless as a cap happens.

 

As for ranked, I think this is a minor nerf at best, and don't see it affecting play much other than in longer matches where energy depletion sets in.

 

A lot of snipers are going to lose a lot of Reg matches for some very angry teams in the next update.

Slow needs to be reduced to 30 or give us all a 50% slow....... I would love to spam a 50% slow just to be an arsewhole. Other than the slow spam I didn't have much issue with sniper but I guess you got to give somewhere it was either the roots, kickbacks, slows, healing or the dmg... If I played sniper I would have rather them take the some of the others to leave dmg alone.

 

Have they shared the desirable DPS ranges Of all the classes because I am wondering how they computed to came up with the numbers because it seems pretty clear to all of us that there are a few classes and specs that are outperforming the others...... Please post the thread that explains all of this because surely they would want to be transparent on this topic

Edited July 3, 2017 by Glocko

What are the target DPS you are aiming at?

 

- 10% compared to juggernauts

" Engineering / Saboteur was swimming in too much energy" & "We didn’t like that Engineering / Saboteur players might sometimes need to choose between using Takedown / Quickdraw to deal damage or Snipe"

 

Pretty sure whoever wrote these statements doesn't know how to play engi/sab.

 

Agreed. Someone needs to send them to sniper school.

 

Or maybe they could post the rotation they think we should be using.

Lol yea maybe they used Juggs as the baseline and want all other classes to beat that number by 15-20%

But until now, that hasn’t prevented all of the area of effect damage over time abilities in the game from interrupting a character who is trying to capture a PvP objective. In 5.3, this will be changing: all AoE DoT abilities, including Plasma Probe / Incendiary Grenade, will be joining Toxic Haze / Bushwhack as abilities that do not interrupt a character who is in the process of capturing a PvP objective.

 

 

I actually think these are a step too far, we tested the AoE abilities (not differentiating between DoT or channelled abilities here), including Plasma Probe interrupting nodes on the PTS way back when. The players provided plenty of feedback on those changes, so can I ask why this has now been arbitrarily put to one side without further testing from the players on the PTS?

 

?????????????

I actually think these are a step too far, we tested the AoE abilities (not differentiating between DoT or channelled abilities here), including Plasma Probe interrupting nodes on the PTS way back when. The players provided plenty of feedback on those changes, so can I ask why this has now been arbitrarily put to one side without further testing from the players on the PTS?

 

?????????????

 

Cause the players were wrong?

Lol yea maybe they used Juggs as the baseline and want all other classes to beat that number by 15-20%

 

Technically Rage Juggs ar the baseline, and that should equal eng snipers. Ven Juggs should be 5% higher.

Cause the players were wrong?

 

Or the metrics were wrong that BioWare gleaned from the testing over the few days the AoE changes were tested? I mean at least change it so the first tick counts, but not more than that?

So, general sentiment among the thread is that Sabo/Engi is not, in fact, "swimming in energy", which I definitely agree with.

Considering the other class change threads, I am reminded of a particular moment in The Simpsons:

 

Combat team: "Am I out of touch? No, it's the players who are wrong."

snip

You forgot the Saboteur's Utility Belt proc, which refunds 5 energy when Thermal hits, so it's only a net loss of 20. Also if you have a raidmember who can apply Marked, you can swap Vital with Flurry, making it a net loss of 5 (7 when 5.3 drops).

That said, you're still completely right that the spec does not, in fact, swim in energy.

Edited July 3, 2017 by XhrisShan
Additional info

I think that you went way too far . RIP the best node defending ability. 2012-2017

 

btw maybe you should buff Orbital Strike instead? I think that you promised to do this a few years ago...

Yeah, because that skill was so totally balanced in, say, Novare Coast.

Cause the players were wrong?

Golden!

 

DevNotes: To bring the Engineering / Saboteur discipline down to its DPS target, we made several changes. We changed skills that affect Cluster Bombs / Contingency Charges to both reduce damage output and overall energy regeneration slightly, because we found Engineering / Saboteur was swimming in too much energy and dealing more damage than intended.

Let's take this parse and see:

 

-10% Plasma Probe damage => 471,152 * 0.1 = 47,115 damage lost

-20% Electrified Railgun => 190,135 * 0.2 = 38,027 damage lost

-1 Cluster Bomb (14 in total) = 37,062 damage lost

 

Total deficit: 122,204 damage lost

 

2,501,481 - 122,204 = 2,379,277

2,379,277 / 234.344 = 10,153

A loss of 521 DPS

 

Now, let's assume BioWare would have introduced a 18s cooldown for Plasma Probe.

Let's also assume, the free slot would be filled with a skill that deals 7,500 avg. damage (a Snipe)

14 fewer Plasma Probe uses = 228,328

14 * 7,500 damage = 105,000

 

Remaining deficit: 123,328

 

So almost the same deficit as the BioWare nerfs. The difference: A Plasma Probe with a 18s cooldown can't be active all the time. Therefore, it's impossible to slow enemies the whole time

 

A constant 50% slow is still pretty powerful in a hutt ball wz, etc. And let's not forget:

 

75% slow for 3s every 12~15s via Kneecappin' / Debilitating Shots

up to 80% slow for 3s every 9s via Compounding Impact / Series of Snares (6s if you add the 3s channel duration)

50% slow for 10s on a skill without cooldown via Lumbering Impact

Another 50% AoE slow for up to 8s every 60s via Crippling Diversion

 

BTW: Why didn't BioWare nerf the 70% slow for 6s on a 7.5s cooldown Boltstorm / Blazing Bolt

 

Without taking alacrity into account

1st block = speedshot + inc nade + shock charge + sabotage + thermal nade

costs 20+15+10+15+0 = 60

gains = 5 energy per second x 9 seconds = 45

1st block costs us 15 energy

 

2nd block = speedshot + inc nade + vital shot + explosive charge + thermal nade

costs 20+15+15+15+15 = 80

gains

5 energy per second x 9 seconds = 45

cont charge 4x 5 energy = 20

total gains = 65

2nd block costs us 15 energy.

Not entirely true. Thermal Grenade / Frag Grenade restores 5 energy if it hits the primary target (Sabo's Utility Belt / Engineer's Tool Belt) and the cost of Speed Shot / Series of Shots is lowered to 16 energy (Jury-rigged Mods / Imperial Auto Loader). The tooltip of your skill isn't updated properly.

 

Therefore, both parts are missing 6 energy

 

If BioWare would now do what I've suggested numerous times: Increasing the base energy regeneration rate of all Bounty Hunters & Imperial Agents to 6 energy per second (from 5 per sec), this class would receive +18 energy per rotation. Enough to never use a Rifle Shot again. And no need to use Covered Escape for some energy-free bomblets. And still enough energy left to increase the original cost of Speed Shots / Series of Shots to 24.

Edited July 12, 2017 by realleaftea

In 5.3, this will be changing: all AoE DoT abilities, including Plasma Probe / Incendiary Grenade, will be joining Toxic Haze / Bushwhack as abilities that do not interrupt a character who is in the process of capturing a PvP objective.

 

This is a very serious and needed QoL change to PvP. It's not a fun mechanic when such abilities can interrupt the objective gameplay style of a warzone. Essentially, a single sniper could keep multiple people from capping without even putting any effort into it. Thank you for changing this.

 

Overall, I think the changes look alright. They aren't overly harsh or too much, but they certainly tone down snipers and gunslingers in any PvP environment. However, they will still be able to perform decently in any PvE setting.

 

Now the only thing left to look at is utilities...

Edited July 3, 2017 by Alssaran

Overall these seem like fair changes to me. Not too sure about the energy change, though I do feel energy management right now is fine in Engineering I don't know if recovering 2 less energy every 18 seconds will affect the rotation by a lot, I'd have to play with the changes to really find I guess Edited July 3, 2017 by AdjeYo

excellent. you can nerf this one harder if you want in 2.0, nobody played engi and it was a great thing. Edited July 3, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

The cost of Speed Shot / Series of Shots is lowered to 16 energy (Jury-rigged Mods / Imperial Auto Loader). The tooltip of your skill isn't updated properly.

Just tested this, can confirm. Thanks for the info. That makes it a net energy gain of 3 if you use a 2-Thermal rotation with an autoattack filler.

This apparently means you're swinning in energy tho lol

Edited July 3, 2017 by XhrisShan
Additional info

i played this spec 90% of the time for 4 years. (2.0 and old tree discipline to 5.0)

 

you already destroyed the essence of enginneering spec at 4.0, so now you can do whatever you want with.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Thaladan

A 50% slow that can be spammed and placed where ever u want it is still op AF! should be more like 30-40%