Deception Assassin are the best 1v1 class in the game. And a skilled assassin wins most of them without stealth even. If that is what you are on about, fine, but pvp especially non objective based pvp is not 1v1. Even in objective based pvp regular wzs you hardly get one 1v1s mostly with ninja capping and node guarding. So it is a mini game in the macro game of a wz. In ranked 8v8 you can be sure the off nodes are guarded by a stealther as well, since it would be stupid to do otherwise, so the only really 1v1s in those matches are between stealthers...

but the 1v1 will play even less of a role in arenas, and so does stealth which is a 1v1 boost.

Both Deception and Concealment are single target burst specs designed for 1v1. Concealment is already in such a horrible place that even in normals you end up frustrated very often, because if you dont crit you hit like a nuddle and have about the survivablity of an unbubbled sage, just that you have into melee to do any damage. Nerfing Deception to the ground as was done with Concealment would render stealth DPS a non factor in SWTOR, with Arenas already pointing in that direction.

 

 

The second paragraph makes me wonder whether you know much about the class or how guard works. You practically can't stay in stealth when guarding somebody, since guard transfers part of the damage. That mean you as the assassin tank take damage, and if a stealther takes damage he gets knocked out of stealth. And if you taunt somebody you get unstealthed as well. The only situation where assassin tanks really have a larger benefit from stealth is node guarding. Since for a tanking class they do a nice amount of damage, they are perfect not guards. But tanking a wz like a jugg could would be pointless, since for a tank you are too squishy in comparison.

 

The only stealth spec that can make use of stealth in open fire massively is the operative healer, without anyone doubting the OP PVP healing class. Despite the free instant emergency heals you can spam below 30% health combat stealth provide the "oh ****" CD, that can keep you and your team alive when you are focused. Playing this class I can ironically say the only class that really can reliably cause you massive troubles are dps assassins. Taming them down more, would actually make Operative healing even more overpowered

You and I are not communicating. I take the blame for not being clear. I am saying that a stealth tank is not viable without changes. My suggestion is if you want the to tank like a jug trade stealth for my base damage reduction.

I also agree shadow burst is where it should be but they don't need burst plus sustained DPS equal to a sentinel.

It's lovely how several people keep repeating the weak spot for deception sins is lack of utility and others somehow translate it in "we want higher burst".

So please tell me where deception sins are bad.

I get that I have some sever perception problems, kind of hallucinations things due to some organic brain damage I probably have and those numbers I see in warzones, this ttk , those ninja cap nodes are a manifestation of my health problems

I would like to mention that we are talking about one (out of two) if the strongest hitting class in the single target terms. This 10 boom buff as you said is many times all that I need to vaporised my target.

I don't like raw dmg numbers (tho 100k is still a shameful one) and sins are not supposed to be top damager in the warzones,. They are good with the numbers that are dealing now, huge spikes of damage that either way will kill the target of will make it run aka stop healing. Any buff I would like is only defensive one and it's not needed badly right now.

Tl;dr if somebody is saying that sins shadows in deception infiltration tree are utterly crap - so this is a serious l2p issue, and I would strongly advise some easier games like Tetris (minesweeper can be too hard).

So please tell me where deception sins are bad.

 

I get that I have some sever perception problems, kind of hallucinations things due to some organic brain damage I probably have and those numbers I see in warzones, this ttk , those ninja cap nodes are a manifestation of my health problems

No, it's not perception problems, it's selective tunnel visions problems.

Nowhere I said they are "bad", just read the posts where I say "we are a nice fish... out of the water" or that we are a nice class just in a game not made for it.

The proof is in the pudding: as of today tank sins are not wanted:

- in progression PvE, because they may die to random "two boss crits => dead" no matter the skill, the team composition, the amount or ability of the healers. It's just like that: out of ANY player controlled action or capability, they may just die.

- In competitive PvP, for the same reason above. There just cannot exist a PvP sin / shadow tank. Players hit far more often than 1 boss and the "2 hits dead" syndrome is even stronger. Other PVE / PvP classes have reliable and predictable mitigation so they are the mainstay PvP tank. As of today sin tanks find *1* optional spot as node guarders, their ability to stealth guard overcomes their weakness. Come arenas, nodes to guard will just stop existing. And then who wants a tank whose only saving grace was the ability to guard nodes?

DoT spec shadows / sins are not wanted:

- In progression PvE the spec has super-extra stringent pre-requisites in terms of being able to 100% perform totally perfect rotations. A number of encounters just won't allow that and they have to respec infiltration... and then the untamed laughter ensues (at seeing the resulting parses).

- In competitive PvP just ask ANYONE you want and they'll agree saying that madness is one the worst PvP specs in game bar none.

Deception spec shadows / sins are not wanted:

- In progression PvE it's violently THE lowest DPS spec in game (even worse than madness!), a paragon of who you don't want to bring at hard content.

- In competitive PvP just ask ANYONE in a top guild and they'll agree saying you that deception is one of the worst specs, just a bit better than madness.

Just try applying for a renowed guild: they'll only take players of the caliber of Evolixe or Xinika (our class representative) with endless videos and scores of them being able to perform feats that with another class would make the server crash in "nerf it!" nerf demands.

I mean, if Evolixe played a marauder, it'd be like 4M damage and 120 kills a match.

Ah, did I mention that those super guys don't play deception? Guess why?

Of course deception is GREAT as level up spec, to flash-gank level 25s at Tatooine desert and to farm bads in regular warzones and make them quickly post on these forums.

Does this means they are competitive and accepted by good guilds? Nope.

Notice how I never mentioned "DPS" as being a factor for PVP. So the "LOL you want more damage" posts are just unfounded and biased.

Would you want a guy who only exists for your team 10 seconds every 2 minutes?

If your answer is "no, I am not stupid" then you know why deception does not work. I won't even say "it's weak, buff it", because it's not weak. It does not work, period. Needs to be removed and rewritten to plug in the actual SWTOR game, not the "idea of what SWTOR should have been at release".

"No lolololol that's the guy who (despite having posted 300-480k damage scores) does just 100k when he sits AFK at a node!"

Nope, our class representative and one of the big guns of our class is exactly of the same opinion, with multiple posts on our sub-forum saying the same.

You know, when BW first announced arenas, a lot of us started in on how arenas are going to screw over classes and turn swtor balance into a ever increasing nightmare.

Foresight is 20/20

And stealth cannot be an excuse to not giving sins tweaks. In pvp stealth is used mostly to get into melee range without getting hammered along the way. You know another melee class that can do the same? Yeah, warriors with charge. Their jump even allowed them to switch targets instantly (best for melee train assist) and on top of that it allows to jump on the platforms where sin should run around to get to (for example get back instantly after being pushed from the platform).

Combat stealth? Yeah, marauders got that too.

So currently stealth brings nothing to pvp table that marauders did not already. I see no excuse

for sins to not being buffed to the marauders level of survivability and burst/sustain dps.

No, it's not perception problems, it's selective tunnel visions problems.

I won't be arguing about the tank performance - this is a problem, everyone knows it. On the side note i would like to say that I don't know why a class that wears light armour get the tank role in the first place. For me there should only 2 tank classes and 2 healing classes, rest should be dd/dps.

Second - as you said deception and sins/shadows as a whole are not in the bad shape in the regs. And the regs are all that matters for BW. Let's face it - BW will never balance the classes around the ranked/hardcore pvpers, it will be always balance around the regs. It's normal thing, it's how the triple A MMO runs these days. They need to appeal to the wide range of ppl to be successful and to survive another day/month/year. This won't be achieved by doing changes because some fringe part of the community said so.

BW have their specialist, they have theirs statistic programs that are burrowing through countless statistic data everyday. So it's not like they are blind and don't know how the game runs. More - any sane person who will read the PvP board for a month will get the impression that it's not about the changes - it's about constant whining about everything. Cybertech nades - leave them alone - bad, nerf them - bad. PT/Vanguards - leave them alone - bad, "nerf" them - bad.

And the last thing - many of those issues that you are referring to will be solved by the removal of the 8/8 objective based RWZ. There won't be any 'true pvp guilds' that will say which class is good and which one is bad. Hell with the sole q and ranking system you won't even need one. You could be in the pve/social guild and still be doing rankeds like crazy, because you need only 3 more ppl to team up with and you're good to go. If you're good with the class you're rolling you will be able to play RWZ and nobody will give a damn about this.

For me the 2.4 patch for most ppl here should be treated like a kind of salvation.

And stealth cannot be an excuse to not giving sins tweaks. In pvp stealth is used mostly to get into melee range without getting hammered along the way. You know another melee class that can do the same? Yeah, warriors with charge. Their jump even allowed them to switch targets instantly (best for melee train assist) and on top of that it allows to jump on the platforms where sin should run around to get to (for example get back instantly after being pushed from the platform).

 

Combat stealth? Yeah, marauders got that too.

 

So currently stealth brings nothing to pvp table that marauders did not already. I see no excuse

for sins to not being buffed to the marauders level of survivability and burst/sustain dps.

Mara stealth != sin stealth (sin combat stealth takes you out of combat and lasts longer than 4 seconds and lets you sap). Mara charge != sin stealth (sin stealth lets you sneak to the back of a team and start hitting a healer - maras that charge to the back of an enemy team also get targeted by everyone on that team while they're getting there and they usually have a nice amount of cc waiting when they land - also, snipers and invisible targets can't be charged).

I like that you mention platforms - sins can knock anyone off of platforms. They can go invis, wait for someone or several someones to walk into position and kb. In HB, the aoe kb is far more valuable than charge most of the time. If your teammates hang out on the ledge of their pit while the ball carrier is in the pit I can't help you. In many cases, in at least half the wzs, kbs can be used for 1-shot kills. Charge isn't useless of course, but kbs + stealth + speed (and some of their dcds and the pull) make sins the best class for hb. That's not me saying they're the only useful class; chargers and scamperers are useful too, but in my experience hb has almost always been won by the team with the most sins unless it's a premade vs a non-premade.

If sin gets knocked out of platform in high he must go a distance to get back, while marauders can just jump back (if target is not in cover, but even then you usually have to wait a bit out of LoS for gunslinger to come out).

Next, you can't build proper melee train team with sin assisting because of usability to change focus to distant target - almost no other dps suffering from that. That alone can be a valid reason not to include assassin's in arena teams where you have to coordinate focus fire.

Next, force camouflage just enough for marauders to shake off focus and get healer a chance to heal him up. And sins force cloak usually busted a lot more frequently due to dots good opponents use on them - unless you fast enough to use blackout and it's not on CD.

Next, marauders got awesome are damage in the best burst tree (officially stated by devs). We got pathetic are. Marauders got 100% armor ignore for 4 sec on about 9 sec CD (or less, don't remember now). Of course with autocrit on main damaging ability for a given tree.

If sin gets knocked out of platform in high he must go a distance to get back, while marauders can just jump back (if target is not in cover, but even then you usually have to wait a bit out of LoS for gunslinger to come out).

It's a paper - rock - scissors thing. Still maras don't have a 2 sec 150% speed boost, mara can't go stealth, not a proper one.

Next, you can't build proper melee train team with sin assisting because of usability to change focus to distant target - almost no other dps suffering from that. That alone can be a valid reason not to include assassin's in arena teams where you have to coordinate focus fire.

As i said - BW won't balance pvp around the hardcore players, at least not in way they want. This game will be always balance around the pug with small factor from new ranked games. This sucks, but buffing sins/shadows in the way you want it would crippled the pug games coz sins would be new FoTM and this would be a big one.

Second - BW said they will do some changes, probably nerf/buff mix bag - because the game is in the pretty balance state not a perfect one, but also not in the bad one. And this will be made after they get how arenas plays out on live servers.

So i don't understand what's the whole commotion. There will be changes, in the 2-3 months max, when the 2.5 patch hits.

Next, force camouflage just enough for marauders to shake off focus and get healer a chance to heal him up. And sins force cloak usually busted a lot more frequently due to dots good opponents use on them - unless you fast enough to use blackout and it's not on CD.

You can't be healed while in the stealth. Maras have 4 sec one after which they are vulnerable. Sins (if there isn't any DoT on them) can stay stealth. Even if they could be healed it wouldn't be a big numbers - because it would be only 4 secs healing and no class can heal to full in 4 secs.

Well, mara got permanent 15% speed boost (and up to 50% for whole party for a longer time).

And even for PuGs mara has easier time to switch targets or even run away with jump. But most importantly marauders can choose their targets after they engage in combat while sins usually can not (jump vs stealth in combat).

And about heal and stealth - I was talking about shaking off focus and come back to back line to heal up. Anyway, the main purpose of stealth in combat is to shake off focus. And marauders got this ability. Why the most powerful melee dps with awesome defensive CD also got combat stealth is beyond my comprehension.

I agree that game balance in good shape compared to many other MMORPG I've played, but what saddens sin community is absence needed tweaks on PTS and in test patch notes. We know that those patch notes are not final, but we also know that balance changes is not something devs do in the last round of patch development. So we're probably left without needed changes for another half year. And I know devs don't read pvp forum so it's just us arguing against each other trying to prove something that doesn't matter anyway.

And about heal and stealth - I was talking about shaking off focus and come back to back line to heal up. Anyway, the main purpose of stealth in combat is to shake off focus. And marauders got this ability. Why the most powerful melee dps with awesome defensive CD also got combat stealth is beyond my comprehension.

This! Mara stealth is just above&beyond me. This class should never get stealth.

For me there should be just one more defensive ability for sins and everything would be fine and dandy.

This! Mara stealth is just above&beyond me. This class should never get stealth.

 

For me there should be just one more defensive ability for sins and everything would be fine and dandy.

Sentinel was given force camouflage back in beta because sentinel had almost no chance of beating a sniper.

Sentinel was given force camouflage back in beta because sentinel had almost no chance of beating a sniper.

They also were given the auto-crit aoe attack back in beta coz they had almost no chance of beating a whole freaking group, and a 4 sec god mode coz they had almost no chance of beathing the whole freaking group. So we get a smashing-monkey in process that can be invisible and invincible. And we than called it 'a balance'.

I'm waiting when the Hammer of Nerf will come online, coz there is some serious s.... to hammer down.

They also were given the auto-crit aoe attack back in beta coz they had almost no chance of beating a whole freaking group, and a 4 sec god mode coz they had almost no chance of beathing the whole freaking group. So we get a smashing-monkey in process that can be invisible and invincible. And we than called it 'a balance'.

 

I'm waiting when the Hammer of Nerf will come online, coz there is some serious s.... to hammer down.

That'll never happen. The largest playerbase plays knights and warriors, so they need to be catered to. Their skill range varies, so most gravitate toward an OP auto-crit spec and would be very vocal if they didn't see big numbers at the end of every game.

Um what? So your saying my 6k+ Discharge and my 5k+ Shock isn't bursty? Oh wait I've got three stacks of Recklessness, Voltaic slash x2, Shock again.

Sins don't 'rely' on maul for burst. Yes it is a big part of their rotation but Crits on Discharge and Shock are just as nasty. Add to the fact that Maul is highly unpredictable when in comes to the RNG and you end up with a 4-5K one instead of 9k.

No its not bursty considering its not 100 percent reliable crt especially when it can b negated with a stun or blocked completely. And 11k crit on a 1 plus minute timer that isnt a guarantee is crap

Besides nobody can seem to explain why sins parse 500 dps lower than other classes? If that isnt gimp the. Idk what is but all you sins are fine people cherry pick your arguement and ignore the parses. 10k reckless crit on someone that has over 30k hp doesnt matter when all your followups out of stealth moves suck so bad omg spam voltaic for 2k crit if your lucky