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Update on Sentinel and Marauder


EricMusco

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Hey folks,

 

I know that some of you have been waiting for a status update on Maras/Sents, especially for PvP. Here is some info from the Combat team.

 

---

 

Hello everyone,

 

We would like to take this opportunity to discuss Marauders/Sentinels and their present state in the game. To do so, we wish to start by outlining the rotational design philosophies of the three Marauder/Sentinel rotations.

 

Carnage/Combat: Low Rotation Difficulty, Moderate Burst and Moderate Sustained Damage

Annihilation/Watchman: High Rotation Difficulty, High Sustained and Low Burst Damage

Fury/Concentration: Moderate Rotation Difficulty, High Burst and Low Sustained Damage

 

Marauder/Sentinel PvP Viability:

As it presently stands, Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are performing well in Solo Ranked and Group Ranked PvP, respectively. We target a 50% win rate for each Discipline in PvP, and Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are slightly above this ideal win rate. Carnage/Combat is the seventh most effective Discipline (out of 24 Imperial/Republic total Disciplines) with a win rate that is right on target. Annihilation/Watchman is ranked seventh in Solo Ranked PvP (out of 24 Imperial/Republic total Disciplines) with a win rate that is equally on target. Additionally, Carnage/Combat is currently in one of the top 5 Group Ranked PvP class compositions, and this composition has an 82.6% win rate. While win rates are not the sole variable that we balance PvP performance from, these numbers provide evidence of Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman viability in broad PvP scenarios.

 

Fury/Concentration is in the lower half of the PvP spectrum. Like other classes that are underperforming, this is, and shall continue to be, addressed in upcoming class balance updates.

 

While we plan to adjust Marauders/Sentinels in future updates, we do not expect to see any Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines receiving significant damage output increases. Each of the Disciplines is presently performing at our desired DPS markers, and we plan to focus on Utility in the future. Specifically, mobility and self-healing improvements are currently being tested. We’ll keep you up to date on changes in the coming weeks.

 

It should be noted that PvP success is continually changing as updates reach live and the community learns new strategies with their classes.

Looking forward, we will continue to incrementally improve the status of Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines that are not performing to satisfaction. This is the perspective that we hold for all Disciplines across all classes.

 

We will continue to collect constructive feedback from the threads, concerning all classes, and apply improvements through our continual class balancing updates.

 

-The SWTOR Combat Team

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This is the most ridiculous post anyone of the community team or the developer ever made. EVER.

The stunlocking Operatives making people unsub post is close, but it doesn't beat this one.

 

In all seriousness, if you think Marauders/Sentinels are performing well, you have literally no clue at all.

I think the difference between the highest rated Marauder (1884) and the highest rated of the other classes (especially Sin with 2907) should give you a SLIGHT (just VERY slight) hint how ridiculously wrong you are if you think you achieved anything close to balance.

 

I'm not gonna give up all hope yet, since you said you wanna focus on mobility, utility and self-healing, but I'm not far from giving up. The statistics you posted make no sense at all. Yes, Sentinels don't need big DPS buffs, that's true, but this data you're referring to is absolutely ridiculous. You just need to look at the leaderboards once.

 

I've been in the top 10 for Season 1 and 2 with my Marauder/Sent in group ranked (inactive during Season 3) and the difference from back then to now is absolutely astonishing. There is no variety in ranked, only double Sin, and group ranked is dying because of this. I think it's pointless to waste any more words for you, it's gonna fall on deaf ears anyway.

Edited by DynamiCtagez
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Thanks for the post Combat Team & Eric, it is always good to have you guys communicating with the community about the state of class balance.

 

Is there any likelihood of changes to improve quality of life for Watchman/Annihilation? Especially in terms of making it's rotation and playstyle closer to the pre-3.0 iteration with shorter duration dots and the Cauterize cooldown reset mechanic?

Edited by Emperor-Norton
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This didn't answer anything really. All you said is that Annihilation and Carnage are fine GG. My question in the previous thread was about changing how Annihilation / Watchman plays, not about it's damage and you didn't even mention it.

 

This just confirms that the balancing team is completely disconnected from what the player base wants.

Edited by MorgenBlue
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I'm a total PvP outsider, but I feel like I'm missing something. The statistics say that Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchmen are in a good spot as far as wins go, but the players are saying otherwise?

 

Or is Fury/Concentration just so bad that it drags the whole class down?

 

What am I missing? Is the data above cherry picked to make Sents/Marauders look good or is there just some disconnect between the statistics and what players are seeing?

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This is the most ridiculous post anyone of the community team or the developer ever made. EVER.

The stunlocking Operatives making people unsub post is close, but it doesn't beat this one.

 

In all seriousness, if you think Marauders/Sentinels are performing well, you have literally no clue at all.

I think the difference between the highest rated Marauder (1884) and the highest rated of the other classes (especially Sin with 2907) should give you a SLIGHT (just VERY slight) hint how ridiculously wrong you are if you think you achieved anything close to balance.

 

I've been in the top 10 for Season 1 and 2 with my Marauder/Sent in group ranked (inactive during Season 3) and the difference from back then to now is absolutely astonishing. There is no variety in ranked, only double Sin, and group ranked is dying because of this. I think it's pointless to waste any more words for you, it's gonna fall on deaf ears anyway.

 

pretty much this. its good game if they cant see the major difference between mara/sent and other mdps

guess ill just retire my sent and play my guardian vg and shadow

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I got "No plan to increase damage output directly, but we are looking at self-healing and more mobility internally" out of this. I don't think damage needs addressed. It's fine.

 

I'm more about QoL around Contemplation being made a passive for all Sentinels/Maruaders. Defensive forms being made passive and replaced by something and a mobility improvement possibly at the Masterful or Skillful tier. That's my wish list. Damage is ok in the PvP theatre.

 

Thanks for sharing this information Eric. I think you guys are on the right track! :rak_01:

Edited by K_osss
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...

Carnage/Combat: Low Rotation Difficulty, Moderate Burst and Moderate Sustained Damage

Annihilation/Watchman: High Rotation Difficulty, High Sustained and Low Burst Damage

Fury/Concentration: Moderate Rotation Difficulty, High Burst and Low Sustained Damage

 

...

 

Thanks for sharing this information; I am particularly intrigued by the quoted passage. It's nice to see three different dimensions being used to evaluate the class.

 

I wonder if you could comment more on your definition(s) of Low, Moderate, and High Rotation Difficulty. What are the criteria used in this determination? Number of abilities in the rotation? Frequency of ability use? Procs? Resource limitations?

 

I would just like to align my definition with those of the combat team.

 

Thanks again.

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I'm a bit floored. There was no mention on how a large chunk of the watchman/anni community dislikes the current playstyle. No comment on Predation. Those are probably the two biggest issues Sent/Mara players talk about, yet instead we get "You're doing fine in Arenas, so..."

 

I'm disappointed because this isn't communication (even if you think Watchman/Anni rotation should remain the same, or that Predation shouldn't be changed, you could explain why). It's just a brush off.

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Basically, the issue is marauders have trouble "holding onto" prey. That said, their DPS is fine if they can, but due to lack of physics immunities, it's very difficult.

 

Really, if marauders need something, it's utility based physics or stun immunity. However, derpcakes on these forums associate all negative problems with "we need more DPS" not realizing that any problems are uptime related.

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Rofl.Concetration is currently the best out of the 3 disciplines and every living person knows that.The reason that concetration underperforms is because this spec is boring as **** and no sentinel plays it.Traditionaly the 2 most played specs were watchman and combat.Other than that,yeah,this whole post is ridiculous.Once more you guys proved that you are clueless and that makes me sad.Take a look at the leaderboards and the ratings ffs.Take a look at your data to see how much underpresented sentinels are in pvp.Utilities are the epitome of mess,this class is the epitome of mess.But enough is enough i guess,sub runs out in 5 days.
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Hey folks,

Marauder/Sentinel PvP Viability:

As it presently stands, Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are performing well in Solo Ranked and Group Ranked PvP, respectively. We target a 50% win rate for each Discipline in PvP, and Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are slightly above this ideal win rate. Carnage/Combat is the seventh most effective Discipline (out of 24 Imperial/Republic total Disciplines) with a win rate that is right on target. Annihilation/Watchman is ranked seventh in Solo Ranked PvP (out of 24 Imperial/Republic total Disciplines) with a win rate that is equally on target. Additionally, Carnage/Combat is currently in one of the top 5 Group Ranked PvP class compositions, and this composition has an 82.6% win rate. While win rates are not the sole variable that we balance PvP performance from, these numbers provide evidence of Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman viability in broad PvP scenarios.

 

Im curious. Do you guys even look at your official Leaderboards for ranked PVP? Because if you did, you would see that the TOP RANKED sentinel/marauder is currently at rank 110. That is the BEST marauder in the entire game and he isnt even in the top 100 players! How can you say that a class is fine if that class isnt even in the top 100? His rating in solo is 1884, which is much lower than any of the other class's top ratings.

 

In grouped ranked, the top ranked marauder is currently #32 and the only class's top player that is lower than the top Marauder in grouped ranked is a Mercenary.

 

Are you legitimately telling the players that Marauders are in a good spot when they arent even in the top 100 in Solos and only doing worse than every other class other than a Merc in grouped? Even if I grant you the fact that 50% of Maras are winning, that doesnt mean anything meaningful because they are still underperforming when compared to other classes. Nobody really cares how marauders are doing when compared to themselves because that isnt a good metric to use when balancing a class. Class balance should be done as a comparison to other classes so that we dont have classes which are far outperforming and parsing than another.

 

From what I can understand, the developers logic on PVP balance is that you are looking at a kid who is failing most his test and then saying, Oh well hes actually doing well because other kids who are also failing their classes are at least passing 50% of their tests within the classes. That really doesnt say anything meaningful about that kid because the fact still remains that hes failing his classes (and has a 50% average) when compared to other kids in his class who are getting straight As. You should be comparing the kid who is failing to the kid who is getting straight As to make him get his stuff in order and get a tutor to help him not fail. In this metaphor, a tutor is the developer who can fix the class balance.

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Basically, the issue is marauders have trouble "holding onto" prey. That said, their DPS is fine if they can, but due to lack of physics immunities, it's very difficult.

 

Really, if marauders need something, it's utility based physics or stun immunity. However, derpcakes on these forums associate all negative problems with "we need more DPS" not realizing that any problems are uptime related.

 

I think pretty much 90% of the feedback given during the last 3 PTS patches regarding Mara/Sent was all about mobility and utility.

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The reason, Annihilation and Carnage are currently ranked somewhat high in solo ranked is because anyone crazy enough to play it is a GREAT player. Great players can make any spec work. Kand on The Bastion made Arsenal Merc work seasons 1-3. Why? Because he's a great player. But just because Anni/Carnage are rated somewhat decently in solo ranked in terms of win rate, DOES NOT MEAN IT IS FINE.

 

Let's take a look at the first page of Solo Ranked.

http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/class/sentinel-marauder Rank #1: 1884 Rating. Rank #50: 1364 Rating

 

http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/class/shadow-assassin Rank #1: 2907 Rating. Rank #50: 1781 Rating.

 

So basically the number 50 solo Marauder in the world is rated at a pathetic 1364. The number 50 sin in the world is rated 1781. I think this speaks volumes. The average marauder is probably rated below 1000. The average sin? Much, much higher.

Edited by revcrisis
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Alright done playing my marauder, seeing the developers of this game basicly just admitted that they don't care about the class. Only 6 marauders will get the ranked tier 1 rewards for season 4 in pvp, 5 in solo ranked and 1 in group ranked and you say the class is perfectly fine? Basicly 2 marauders in group ranked will get the top 3 tier rewards but won't get the the tier 1 rewards..... makes sense right.

 

You guys are basicly insulting the community by making short sighted posts such as these. Those statics are so high becaus only a small percentage of the player base haven't given up on marauders yet.

Edited by Theshadowbehind
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Carnage/Combat is currently in one of the top 5 Group Ranked PvP class compositions, and this composition has an 82.6% win rate. While win rates are not the sole variable that we balance PvP performance from, these numbers provide evidence of Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman viability in broad PvP scenarios.

 

Fury/Concentration is in the lower half of the PvP spectrum. Like other classes that are underperforming, this is, and shall continue to be, addressed in upcoming class balance updates.

 

 

-The SWTOR Combat Team[/color]

 

Ummmm......I think you guys got your ranked numbers confused with 2 seasons ago for group ranked. There is no way maras, especially carnage, are being successful in GR. You know, when the meta was hard swapping and not "lets derp with 1 or 2 hatred and see who we kill." Marauders don't suffer from damage output either, it's that they are so easily kiteable, every class can just LOL at them and run away (I'm not a mara expert at all, but I face them on a lot of toons and LOL at them while kiting and killing them.) This would be pretty obvious if you watched streams or you know.....actually played the game.

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Im curious. Do you guys even look at your official Leaderboards for ranked PVP? Because if you did, you would see that the TOP RANKED sentinel/marauder is currently at rank 110. That is the BEST marauder in the entire game and he isnt even in the top 100 players! How can you say that a class is fine if that class isnt even in the top 100? His rating in solo is 1884, which is much lower than any of the other class's top ratings.

 

In grouped ranked, the top ranked marauder is currently #32 and the only class's top player that is lower than the top Marauder in grouped ranked is a Mercenary.

 

Are you legitimately telling the players that Marauders are in a good spot when they arent even in the top 100 in Solos and only doing worse than every other class other than a Merc in grouped? Even if I grant you the fact that 50% of Maras are winning, that doesnt mean anything meaningful because they are still underperforming when compared to other classes. Nobody really cares how marauders are doing when compared to themselves because that isnt a good metric to use when balancing a class. Class balance should be done as a comparison to other classes so that we dont have classes which are far outperforming and parsing than another.

 

From what I can understand, the developers logic on PVP balance is that you are looking at a kid who is failing most his test and then saying, Oh well hes actually doing well because other kids who are also failing their classes are at least passing 50% of their tests within the classes. That really doesnt say anything meaningful about that kid because the fact still remains that hes failing his classes (and has a 50% average) when compared to other kids in his class who are getting straight As. You should be comparing the kid who is failing to the kid who is getting straight As to make him get his stuff in order and get a tutor to help him not fail. In this metaphor, a tutor is the developer who can fix the class balance.

 

Not to mention there are 21 Marauders and Sentinels in the top 1000, which is 6 times less than it should be if things are okay.

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Words cannot express just how out of touch with your game you seem to be.

 

By any statistical standard, taking ranked PvP win rate and using that as a benchmark is just a poor metric. How about, as several have already mentioned, taking into account how many of the top ranked players are actually playing Marauder or Sentinel at a high rating? I'm entirely sure the landscape will cause you to draw an entirely different conclusion.

 

Players are always prone to complain about something. Scissors beats paper, nerf scissors. But I can't comprehend that you're willing to completely disregard the mountain of requests and helpful suggestions that people have spent time coming up with.

 

You really don't understand the meaning of balance do you? GG Bioware.

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Sweet, balancing the class based on our ranked leaderboards. Take into account the handful of people with single digit wins in our top 50 into your formula for class balance.

 

Yep. Or probably the data from all seasons combined...

Edited by DynamiCtagez
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I'm a bit floored. There was no mention on how a large chunk of the watchman/anni community dislikes the current playstyle. No comment on Predation. Those are probably the two biggest issues Sent/Mara players talk about, yet instead we get "You're doing fine in Arenas, so..."

 

I'm disappointed because this isn't communication (even if you think Watchman/Anni rotation should remain the same, or that Predation shouldn't be changed, you could explain why). It's just a brush off.

 

Reverting Anni to pre-3.0 is definitely tops on my wish list, but my takeaway from the OP is that it ain't happening -- they are happy with how the class currently plays, and don't want to expend resources making it fun again. I have no idea why they felt the need to take a fun spec and trash it in the name of "progress ", but that's the reality. My Mara used to be my main for NiM, but at this point he's sitting the bench in favor of my Sniper, and I have no desire to change that as things stand.

Edited by KaiserTNT
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Speaking PvE only here....

 

Based off this post, it looks like Watchman/Annihilation rotations aren't being adjusted, which I am fine with. Adding additional self heals for us will help a tiny bit (we'll see how much they're truly adjusted soon I guess) but there is still no answer for lack of up-time on the majority of bosses in this tier. At least in operations, up-time is by far the more serious issue with Sentinels, in my opinion.

 

Right now, it looks like my Sentinel remains a Story Mode only character and I'll just stick with my Commando for the HM tier.

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When will you get it EA?! We Watchmans, for the most part, don't take issue with the damage output. What we take issue with is how the class plays. You took a fun discipline's playstyle/rotation that no one had ever complained about and threw it to the wolves for NO GOOD REASON.

 

This is final straw. There is no more hope. I'm never playing Sentinel again. Not until they get their head out of their ***, but considering EA signs their cheques, that's an impossibility.

 

Now I have serious, honest, question for you Eric and the entire SWTOR team. Do you actually play your own damn game? Or are you guys just armchair developers?

 

Is there any likelihood of changes to improve quality of life for Watchman/Annihilation? Especially in terms of making it's rotation and playstyle closer to the more popular version of shorter duration dots and the Cauterize cooldown reset mechanic?

I doubt it. Eric just said Watchman is meeting its intended target. And from EA's perspective, if it's meeting its intended target, why change anything?

Edited by Bugattiboy
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