I'm complaining because we, the PvE players have to pay because of the PvP whinners...

 

Stop being rude and calling people (PvPers) names. I find it insulting.

Stop making my ranged classes melee !!!

Sorry, but I don't feel PT and Vanguard DPS pain. Gap-closers or not your DPS is stupidly high. I play a marauder and I'm generally high on the charts, but if there's a competent PT in my raid he's going to beat me, hands down. It was annoying during phases where I can't close the cap (such as tanks in EC HM under the shield or backing out during Toth leaps or now sitting in the stupid color circle in Operator IX) where I'm stuck at melee range.

 

I find it lame that I have 3 trees all for DPS, but a class that can play DPS or Tank can output more DPS and still do it from ranged. So you may not be able to close the gaps, but you have a few abilities that you can do that's > melee range while you're closing the gap on the mob.

I don't know why people want to seperate PVP and PVE in MMOs lol. It will only reduce the number of people you can play your game with.

 

 

Why would reduce the number of people you can play with ?

No one's saying to complicate how groups for either PvP or PvE content are made. What me, and others, are asking is abilities that are changed for one aspect don't affect everything. If you happen to like both aspects, when you're in a wz (or PvP flagged) with your sorc Electrocute will have 10 meters range. If you happen to be in a PvE instance, then Electrocute will be 30 m. Again, how will this reduce the people you play with ? I'm already not playing with people who only PvP because I only PvE.

Vanguard and Powertech are melee class with some long and mid range capabilies, but melee class at heart.

 

2 range DPS ability have been reduce to 10m, but you still have plenty, notably stiky grenade, which is not as powerfull as assault plastique but share the same cooldown, high impact bolt still have 30m range.

 

it's not that bad.

Vanguard and Powertech are melee class with some long and mid range capabilies, but melee class at heart.

 

2 range DPS ability have been reduce to 10m, but you still have plenty, notably stiky grenade, which is not as powerfull as assault plastique but share the same cooldown, high impact bolt still have 30m range.

 

it's not that bad.

Actually, it looks like they uncoupled the cds of assault plastique and sticky grenade - you can have both up at the same time now.

 

I'll figure this new rotation out. Most of my dps was close range anyway, we still don't have to be within 4 m for anything but SS so there's some mobility still there, although a lot of our flexibility is gone. The thing I hate about losing that 20 yards on AP and IR is that it takes a lot longer for me to get into position now since we have no gap closers. Storm needs to be a standard ability for vans across the board, seriously. Our gap-closers used to be AP and IR, now we have HS (oh boy!) and SG (which we can't use if there are cc'd mobs). Storm would make me a happy girl.

 

I'd really love to know why this change was necessary. A developer explanation on that would be appreciated. If it was for pvp alone, that's bs.

In my opinion (and I believe that's not only me that thinks like me) those two classes ARE NOT melee range classes... of course they have close quarters abilities (just like snipers / gunslinger and these are not melee classes) but that doesn't mean we need to be less than 10 meters close to the enemy all the time! Most of our abilities have a 30 meter range (hammer shot, full auto, sitcky grenade and many others).

 

 

If you're not playing a DPS Pyrotech in melee range, you're messing with your own PvE experience. This change does pretty little to change how these classes play.

Don't ya know...no one PvE's in this game. Its all about PvP. If you PvE you are doing it wrong and need to go back to Hello Kitty online. If this game is going to survive its going to be on the subscriptions of all the PvPer's not the wussy PvE carebears.

 

One thing I could never understand....not just concerning BIoware but MMO's in general. They ALWAYS listen to the PvPer's. Why? They make the most noise. Reality is though that most true PvPer's don't tend to stay in any game for a long time. Usually PvPer's flood into a new game believing all the hype thinking this one is finally going to do it right. They then begin to make suggestions on how to fix things...usually by fix things they want everyone but themselves nerfed. After all PvPer's are pro players and if they ever get defeated its because of either busted game mechanics or someone is cheating. No one can be better than a PvP player. They are gods. They know whats best. And if they don't get it they will quit and the game will fail.

 

Reality is though...I actually know more people that refuse to PvP any more (90% of them since the last major patch over did expertise). Not just in this game...this trend has been happening for several MMO releases over the last 5+ years. PvPers come in, make demands, cry, scream, shout, threaten till changes are made that ultimately ticks off the PvE crowd. PvP changes that at times does more dmg to the PvE aspect of the game than resolve PvP issues. They don't care about PvE players because the life of any online game is PvP...at least in their eyes. These are the people that come into a game, push for major changes, then quit and chase after the next great PvP game. Meanwhile the real bread and butter subscriptions...the raiding, social, PvE crowd sometimes have their entire play experience changed by fleeting PvP players here this month and gone next month.

 

Game company's never learn. There are soooo many examples of how PvP changes has destroyed MMO's over the years. The destruction is not to PvP but to the PvE aspect. PvP players come and go. PvP players are like unmediated ADHD children running around without direction. Pumped about the new game but bored with it just as fast and moving on to the next great game. Meanwhile, the PvE crowd is abused over and over with class changes due to PvP that at times change the very playstyle of a class alienating PvE players who really play their characters and could care less about valor rank and score board numbers. Game company's loose sight of the subs that will be most loyal to them and their greatest investors to appease a subset of subs that will show no loyalty and rarely show any real longevity to any game. Its happened before, its happening now, and it will happen again.

They cope by having 'gape closer' abilities, we do not.

They have multiple defensives CDs, we do not.

 

Like OP said, those nerfs are PVP based, nothing more.

 

Wait, what "gap closer" does Operative get again...?

Edited September 27, 2012 by ProsaicProse

Only thing I miss is my cyro grenade. As vanguard tank, I have no useable cc, grenade is one of the better. Not just for PVP, even more for PVE (puzzle boss, new ops last boss, plenty of usage). Why not nerf range of every single cc? PT and vanguards aren't so good in pvp because they have cyro grenade and they can hit from range, they are strong because they ignore armor and hit like trucks. This nerf wont lower their damage if that was the goal. Edited September 27, 2012 by TheRampage

Only thing I miss is my cyro grenade. As vanguard tank, I have no useable cc, grenade is one of the better. Not just for PVP, even more for PVE (puzzle boss, new ops last boss, plenty of usage). Why not nerf range of every single cc? PT and vanguards aren't so good in pvp because they have cyro grenade and they can hit from range, they are strong because they ignore armor and hit like trucks. This nerf wont lower their damage if that was the goal.

 

Umm, that's precisely what happened: they changed every hard stun's range to 10m (those that previously had a 30m range, of course; Dirty Kick is still a melee stun).

Edited September 27, 2012 by Siorac

Drastic changes like this is *always*...I repeat...*ALWAYS* because of PVP QQing.

To be fair, it is really 3 abilities that got nerfed in range. You can throw [High Impact Bolt] aka [Rail Shot] in as well. Since it requires the burn (usually applied from the now nerfed IR), we can't use that until we're in the sub 10m range now too. We're pretty much stuck doing our basic [Hammer Shot] aka [Rapid Shot] until we're in 10m range. Previously we had several GCDs of 30m abilities to use while we closed the gap to enable the rest of our rotation.

 

I'm really disappointed by this change, not because I think it nerfs my damage much, but mainly because it really changes the play style quite dramatically and I don't like how it feels now. It is quite different, there's no doubt about it if you play the class. I really loved the pre 1.4 Vanguard Assault class play style, and now I am quite a sad panda how they changed it to this degree.

 

For those claiming we still have ranged DPS abilities, you need to walk in our shoes for a moment. Explosive Round (lol) is worthless, standing still for 3s to use Full Auto isn't going to do much for our DPS and then while it's on CD we're still SOL and maybe lost ground, Sticky Grenade is quite weak compared to our 31pt ability so we don't want to use the CD over AP. Ok, Mortar Volley, sure, once a minute. That's it, there's all the ranged abilties we have. Fact is: Vanguard Assault class have 6 abilities on their rotation, 5 of them now can't be used until we're in the 10m range, leaving just 1 (our default shot), from the previous 4 pre 1.4... that's kind of a big change in play style if you ask me.

 

FWIW, I both PVE and PVP equally *A LOT* and while admittedly this certainly affects PVP much more, it has a very real impact on raiding too. It's not just a learning curve thing, I simply won't be able to perform as well as I did previously, that's just a solid fact now due to the first paragraph.

Drastic changes like this is *always*...I repeat...*ALWAYS* because of PVP QQing.

 

I used to think so... but the only explanation for the crazy buffs to Focus/Rage tree of Knights/Warriors is that Bioware wanted to improve the spec's performance in PvE. In PvP it was a monster even before 1.4.

Wait, what "gap closer" does Operative get again...?

 

It's the one that they do in packs of course, stun locking players into a forum rage.

 

@OP. Pvp will ALWAYS dictate your PvE experience. Learn to Adapt instead of whine about it.

I'd really love to know why this change was necessary. A developer explanation on that would be appreciated. If it was for pvp alone, that's bs.

 

I'd like that too...

 

It's like they said "We're going to change them because we want, that's how it's going to be now and there's nothing you can do about it!"

 

In other words, it seems like our opinion about the game is worth **** to them.

 

 

Wait, what "gap closer" does Operative get again...?

 

I guess that's what stealth is there for with another advantage... we don't see they coming!

Edited September 27, 2012 by Haggardbr

Umm, that's precisely what happened: they changed every hard stun's range to 10m (those that previously had a 30m range, of course; Dirty Kick is still a melee stun).

 

Ah, didn't notice that tbh, and I still think that isn't good. I miss those 20m in pve. I miss them a lot. To many changes, and reality is that this game has one of better PVP class balance. Every single class is useable in PVP.

Change is hard, yea. People don't like change. I suppose players weren't playing the spec/AC the way Bioware intended.

 

I was personally surprised on my powertech that it got so many good long range abilities when I selected the AC, since I was under the impression it was supposed to be a melee range-get peoples faces-type of class. Since none of the other melee range classes have nearly as many long range abilities that DAMAGE things like powertechs do, it was probably a good change.

To be fair, it is really 3 abilities that got nerfed in range. You can throw [High Impact Bolt] aka [Rail Shot] in as well. Since it requires the burn (usually applied from the now nerfed IR), we can't use that until we're in the sub 10m range now too. We're pretty much stuck doing our basic [Hammer Shot] aka [Rapid Shot] until we're in 10m range. Previously we had several GCDs of 30m abilities to use while we closed the gap to enable the rest of our rotation.

 

I'm really disappointed by this change, not because I think it nerfs my damage much, but mainly because it really changes the play style quite dramatically and I don't like how it feels now. It is quite different, there's no doubt about it if you play the class. I really loved the pre 1.4 Vanguard Assault class play style, and now I am quite a sad panda how they changed it to this degree.

 

For those claiming we still have ranged DPS abilities, you need to walk in our shoes for a moment. Explosive Round (lol) is worthless, standing still for 3s to use Full Auto isn't going to do much for our DPS and then while it's on CD we're still SOL and maybe lost ground, Sticky Grenade is quite weak compared to our 31pt ability so we don't want to use the CD over AP. Ok, Mortar Volley, sure, once a minute. That's it, there's all the ranged abilties we have. Fact is: Vanguard Assault class have 6 abilities on their rotation, 5 of them now can't be used until we're in the 10m range, leaving just 1 (our default shot), from the previous 4 pre 1.4... that's kind of a big change in play style if you ask me.

 

FWIW, I both PVE and PVP equally *A LOT* and while admittedly this certainly affects PVP much more, it has a very real impact on raiding too. It's not just a learning curve thing, I simply won't be able to perform as well as I did previously, that's just a solid fact now due to the first paragraph.

 

THANK YOU!

 

Finally someone that knows what he's saying... that's the point i'm trying to reach.

 

While these changes will affect PvP it will present a HUGE and drastic change into PvE as well just as you perfectly described above, but people are just too stubborn to see that and say that this is all QQ'ing...

 

I'm also REALLY upset with these changes because I also loved the old play style, I used it for a long time, I was used to how it worked and now everything got screwed up.

I used to think so... but the only explanation for the crazy buffs to Focus/Rage tree of Knights/Warriors is that Bioware wanted to improve the spec's performance in PvE. In PvP it was a monster even before 1.4.

 

I mean how often do you hear PVE raiders whine on forums like "OMG BW!!! As a raid-leader, I feel that our dps PT is waaaay too OP. I DEMAND YOU NERF HIM TO THE GROUND OR I'M UNSUBBING!!".

Ah, didn't notice that tbh, and I still think that isn't good. I miss those 20m in pve. I miss them a lot. To many changes, and reality is that this game has one of better PVP class balance. Every single class is useable in PVP.

 

Every class is equal but some are far more equal than others. I do have an Assault Vanguard at 50. It's so much easier to play and to play effectively than my Vigilance Guardian that it's not even funny. It does better damage with worse gear. And actually, pre-1.4, I suggested a few times on the forums that Vanguards' range should be reduced: it's not supposed to be a ranged class yet with Assault Plastique, Incendiary Round and High Impact Bolt you could put out 8-10k damage from 30 meters in 3 global cooldowns. That's comparable to what Snipers/Gunslingers can do.

 

I don't really get the PvE complaints: for an optimal rotation, you had to be in 10 meter range anyway, preferably 4 - Stockstrike and Ion Pulse aren't "optional", they are crucial for PvE. Yeah, it's no longer optimal to start a fight from 30 meters away but I can't really think of big boss fights where it's an actual, real issue. It's just an inconvenience until you get used to it.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Siorac

PT's have been at the rough end of BW's wisdom for ages now, I shelved my lvl 50 PT, using it for storage now. I would really like to know where they get their info from, it obviously isnt the players.

 

They get their info from metrics, and metrics leaves out the whole human value.. like the fun factor, this whole game is built around metrics and metrics failed them in a big way.. /sigh

Oh no, you have to be in melee range to be an effective DPS now.

 

How ever do the marauders/juggernauts/operatives cope?

 

One of the discussions since patch 1.1 was that Operatives DPS was low compared to other classes. I think the problem never was the DPS, but how fast they can reach the target. BH/Troop, Inq/Sage, Warriors/Knight, Gunslinger/Sniper all have either long range or fast travel mechanism. But Ops and Scoundrel do not have any fast way of getting to target, and most range moves do suck since they are melee classes. They can take up to 3-4 secs to get to a boss (after hiding from EV droid missiles for example), so their DPS output is seriously affected.

 

TO BIOWARE DEVS: Scondrel/Ops NEED a teleport ASAP. 1 min cooldown to prevent spamming on PVP should be ok.

 

An idea given here was a nice one, providing a immunity for a couple of secs (2-4) would have been a better option, or limiting the range ONLY on warzones, but keeping normal (pre 1.4) range on world PvE, Flashpoints, and Ops.

I don't really get the PvE complaints: for an optimal rotation, you had to be in 10 meter range anyway, preferably 4 - Stockstrike and Ion Pulse aren't "optional", they are crucial for PvE. Yeah, it's no longer optimal to start a fight from 30 meters away but I can't really think of big boss fights where it's an actual, real issue. It's just an inconvenience until you get used to it.

 

I mentioned earlier that it's much more of an issue for PVP than PVE, but there's still a real impact in PVE too, there's no question about it. Honestly, it's just a fact that we're now losing DPS on fights with the range nerf. Ok sure, if we're on a fight where we're just tanking/spanking and not moving around or switching targets (and there are some like that, sure) the change has little to no impact, but once you start throwing some mechanics around you can start to see where we're going to lose DPS from before. Just some quick examples for the more recent raid bosses:

 

Vorath(EC) - effectively hitting the robot adds on the minefield or turrets at the end is now harder and more annoying.

 

Kephess(EC) - when running to Baridium Bombers, Pulsar Droids, etc., that 30-10m dead spot is going to reduce our DPS as we run to/between them as is closing the gap after his jump.

 

Withering Horror(TFB) - that 30-10m dead spot is hurting your dps as you switch to the jealous mate, the adds, or to the boss after he burrows to a new place.

 

Ciphas, Heirad, and Kel’sara(TFB) - if you've got the doom stack from Ciphas or running away with the tether from Kel'sara, you're moving into the dead spots and lost DPS.

 

Operator IX(TFB) - moving between cores means 40m less overall effective distance as you're going from side to side in the room.

 

Kephess(TFB) - avoiding the red/blue circles can put you in the over 10m dead spot easily, as is when you run to pillars for either the laser or nanite phases. I noticed this more than anything else last night in particular.

 

Terror From Beyond(TFB) - burning down the adds in P1 or the mobs on the platforms in P2 is harder as you work to get them into range.

 

In all these quick examples, you were doing more DPS in 1.3 than you are now in 1.4. There's not much you can do to regain that lost DPS either, it's just a fact. Is it a lot of DPS lost? Sometimes hardly anything, other times it is much more noticeable. The other melee classes/specs hardly got hit this way, it's Vanguard Assault specifically that got changed in a pretty substantial way.

 

TL;DR: With 1.4 the Vanguard Assault play style has been dramatically changed and our DPS in both PVE and PVP has been reduced.

I don't really get the PvE complaints: for an optimal rotation, you had to be in 10 meter range anyway, preferably 4 - Stockstrike and Ion Pulse aren't "optional", they are crucial for PvE. Yeah, it's no longer optimal to start a fight from 30 meters away but I can't really think of big boss fights where it's an actual, real issue. It's just an inconvenience until you get used to it.

 

Haven't leveled a Vanguard past 30, but if I remember correctly, yes they were most effective in the 10 meter range (at least the build I had). Some moves are not available if you are farther than that. Remember how people came straight to me thinking I was a mere "Commando" and got the bad surprise that I owned them in close.

Edited September 27, 2012 by malangus
Adding info