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Thoughts on accuracy/alacrity in 2.0?


CJNJ

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So with the PTS stuff now they started throwing alacrity and accuracy on our gear again and making them "useful"" stats now, do you all think it may benefit? Personally I can only see alacrity being plausable to VGs, because of the way their ammo works. Accuracy on the other hand I think may be necessary, to an extent. And ya I know you lose midigation from taking accuracy but boy do I hate seeing that resist when I use stockstrike and don't get to use HiB because I don't get the dot.

 

Also a quick question if your project/ST/TKthrow or BS/Riposte for guardians gets resisted do you lose the buffs that get applied from them? I know for stockstrike I miss out on the dot but idk for other classes/moves

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Its tough to say at this point. The complicating element is the *massive* boost to the effectiveness of shields, with shield rating occupying the same places as accuracy and alacrity.

 

The value of accuracy is going to come down to how missed attacks interact with defensive buffs and procs. For example if heat blast missing means no 25% absorb buff (which wouldn't make sense), there's not going to be much choice in the matter, we will have to hit cap ourselves.

 

Can't see much point in alacrity though. Even with its new interaction with PT and shadow resources, shield rating is surely going to be more valuable.

Edited by Marb
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I have 91% accuracy (0 on gear) on my sin tank and it does not affect me in any negative way in holding aggro. From what i gathered from my brief look over patch notes i didn't see any changes made to this stat, so i suspect there will be no reason to change previous builds to include it.

 

Alacrity for tanks? Hm, i'm inclined to say no thanks. Why? Because one would need massive amounts to see a big improvement in resource regeneration. That would just drop our defensive stats too much and i don't think it's worth it.

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I have 91% accuracy (0 on gear) on my sin tank and it does not affect me in any negative way in holding aggro. From what i gathered from my brief look over patch notes i didn't see any changes made to this stat, so i suspect there will be no reason to change previous builds to include it.

 

Alacrity for tanks? Hm, i'm inclined to say no thanks. Why? Because one would need massive amounts to see a big improvement in resource regeneration. That would just drop our defensive stats too much and i don't think it's worth it.

 

Accuracy itself has not changed, but level 55 ops mobs will have 8% resist chance, which means your tech/force attacks will have a chance to be resisted. By itself, it's not a massive change, but many procs and effects *may* be linked to special attacks landing. The most obvious example is that if rocket punch misses, no ion gas dot is applied, and railshot can't be used.

 

Again its too early to tell at this point if missed abilities will have a severe effect on tank threat/survivability. My initial observation is that it wont be negative enough to warrant dropping shield for it.

Edited by Marb
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It will depend on individual abilities. If an ability procs on activation it doesn't matter if it hits or misses, if it procs on damage it has to hit. For example: Ion cell won't proc is Stockstrike is resisted but Blade Barrier will activate even if Blade Storm is resisted.

 

As a general rule if the ability says: "Activating X has a Y% chance to grant Z" it doesn't matter if it hits, most tank abilities are like this. Otherwise if it says "X has a Y% change to trigger Z when dealing damage" or "Targets affected by X suffer Z" it has to hit.

 

My thoughts so far follow what I've done on Live. Ditch accuracy and alacrity as much as possible unless you are having threat issues. I've only tested Guardian so far and while I was seeing a lot (well a noticeable amount) of resists it wasn't giving me threat issue.

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The most obvious example is that if rocket punch misses, no ion gas dot is applied, and railshot can't be used.

 

Even that shouldn't be an issue - it just requires "a" effect on the target, and it's very unlikely that there won't be at least 1 DPS applying armor reduction/dots to it, leaving you free to railshot.

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Even that shouldn't be an issue - it just requires "a" effect on the target, and it's very unlikely that there won't be at least 1 DPS applying armor reduction/dots to it, leaving you free to railshot.

 

It must be a dot or an incapacitate effect. And yea I agree, just showing an example of the flow on effect from special attacks missing.

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It must be a dot or an incapacitate effect. And yea I agree, just showing an example of the flow on effect from special attacks missing.

 

I'm actually not sure about the sniper/jugg armor reduction, but merc armor reduction at least definitely does allow use of railshot.

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level 55 ops mobs will have 8% resist chance, which means your tech/force attacks will have a chance to be resisted. By itself, it's not a massive change, but many procs and effects *may* be linked to special attacks landing.

 

I disagree - this is a pretty *major* change since ZERO mobs in the game currently have any kind of force/tech resist. Do you have a source on this?

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I disagree - this is a pretty *major* change since ZERO mobs in the game currently have any kind of force/tech resist. Do you have a source on this?

 

Can't find links to any relevant log data and I'm having rouble uploading mine to torparse, but it can be observed attacking the 55 ops training dummy on the fleet on the pts. Take a toon there, make some logs, and look at the parses using 0% accuracy gear.

 

I'm actually not sure about the sniper/jugg armor reduction, but merc armor reduction at least definitely does allow use of railshot.

 

Your right, the wording on the railshot tooltip is not really accurate in this regard. It seems it has to be a debuff with a damage component, with the exception of armor reduction.

Edited by Marb
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In my time pretending to tank on the PTS(on live my tank is lvl 39 :D) I've found an instance where my stockstrike missing did lead to me losing threat, it was in one of the lvl 55 FPs and only for the initial pull, and neither of the classes used dots so I couldn't get HiB off. I regained Aggro shortly after that, but it still got me mad for having that happen to me. Sure it's unlikely that you will miss but it can suck when you do
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In my time pretending to tank on the PTS(on live my tank is lvl 39 :D) I've found an instance where my stockstrike missing did lead to me losing threat, it was in one of the lvl 55 FPs and only for the initial pull, and neither of the classes used dots so I couldn't get HiB off. I regained Aggro shortly after that, but it still got me mad for having that happen to me. Sure it's unlikely that you will miss but it can suck when you do

 

Sure, it can be annoying I guess - but then again, we've always been dealing with a chance that the railshot misses anyway.

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I min maxed my arkanian gear to have just mitigation stats with no accuracy or alacrity on my shadow and I was sustaining 2.4k threat per second average across an entire hammer station run. At 0 accuracy you'll have a base of 93% and seeing that two well played combat and watchman scents couldn't pull off for even a moment even without guard Id say the answer is "no accuracy will not be needed and alacrity will not be needed on a shadow, that much I can say.
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  • 1 month later...
Any math done as to how Alacrity factors in? I've noticed a lot of the available gear has quite a bit of Alacrity (and on an unrelated note not a lot of defense) and I wanted to get an idea of how many extra pieces I'll need to farm to drop the Alacrity. Edited by Kibaken
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You should have no alacrity at all as a tank. Alacrity is a damage-boosting stat, nothing more, and since it competes with shield, you couldn't possibly take any of it without significantly gimping your mitigation. So, no.

 

Accuracy is more interesting. To answer everyone's question: tank proc effects are on ability *activation*, not on hit. Thus, *activating* Slow Time or Project gives a stack of HS (even when they miss). *Activating* Riposte triggers Blade Barricade. *Activating* Energy Blast grants 25% absorb and consumes your stacks. Fundamental tank procs are immune to interaction with accuracy. With that said, accuracy can still have an effect. For example, if my Project misses, I keep the Particle Acceleration proc. Hilariously, if my Shadow Strike misses, I keep the Shadow Wrap proc and get to use SS a *second* time (back to back) with the same reduced cost.

 

Since fundamental tank procs do not have a negative interaction with survivability, accuracy itself has no survivability contribution and thus should be considered a damage stat that competes with shield. Thus, it is in the same category as alacrity. (do not want!)

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You should have no alacrity at all as a tank. Alacrity is a damage-boosting stat, nothing more, and since it competes with shield, you couldn't possibly take any of it without significantly gimping your mitigation. So, no.

 

Accuracy is more interesting. To answer everyone's question: tank proc effects are on ability *activation*, not on hit. Thus, *activating* Slow Time or Project gives a stack of HS (even when they miss). *Activating* Riposte triggers Blade Barricade. *Activating* Energy Blast grants 25% absorb and consumes your stacks. Fundamental tank procs are immune to interaction with accuracy. With that said, accuracy can still have an effect. For example, if my Project misses, I keep the Particle Acceleration proc. Hilariously, if my Shadow Strike misses, I keep the Shadow Wrap proc and get to use SS a *second* time (back to back) with the same reduced cost.

 

Since fundamental tank procs do not have a negative interaction with survivability, accuracy itself has no survivability contribution and thus should be considered a damage stat that competes with shield. Thus, it is in the same category as alacrity. (do not want!)

 

 

Thanks. I assumed so, I just wish they didn't throw it on the tank gear. /sigh BW...

Edited by Kibaken
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Alacrity is a damage-boosting stat, nothing more

 

This "nothing more" should not be taken too literally. I think alacrity can have some small contribution to survivability at least for shadow/assassin tanks. Speeding up their attack rotation means they build up to 3 stacks of HS/HD that much faster allowing them to get that self healing that much more often, so it would little bit increase their HPS.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that alacrity would be good enough to be worth using in your gear. I'm planning to remove it all from mine. Just noting that despite being undesirable stat, its contribution to survivability would not be 0.

Edited by Eternalnight
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Just wanted to point out something about stockstrike/HiB. While it's true that high impact bolt can activate with any dot or debuff even if it's not yours, you do lose out on the 'smart AoE' effect. of the HiB. This is fairly trivial in my experience given the massive amounts of AoE abilities at our disposal, but still worth noting.

 

Haven't tanked at 55 yet but have healed and DPSed quite a bit. Tanks are definitely having threat issues on trash and initial pull but it isn't unmanageable at this point. What's been the most unsettling has been the massive amounts of healer aggro. If I'm not careful (as a healer) I can wipe the group. It's really pretty absurd.

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Haven't tanked at 55 yet but have healed and DPSed quite a bit. Tanks are definitely having threat issues on trash and initial pull but it isn't unmanageable at this point. What's been the most unsettling has been the massive amounts of healer aggro. If I'm not careful (as a healer) I can wipe the group. It's really pretty absurd.

 

It's not quite that bad. I've been doing a lot of level 55 tanking on my shadow, and while I do absolutely have to work a lot harder to make sure everything is managed and rounded up, I don't think it's really a problem. The issues I've seen have been more due to lower gear levels than anything else (everything takes longer to die and players take more damage due to the across-the-board stat nerfs). I didn't have any trouble holding agro off of healers when I was focused on doing so, and holding agro off of DPS is easier than ever due to the significant threat buffs that all tanks received.

 

Basically, I think what we're seeing now is that tanks have to work harder than they might be used to on account of gear levels. It's absolutely possible to manage and control things as tightly as we used to though, which is reassuring.

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What's been the most unsettling has been the massive amounts of healer aggro. If I'm not careful (as a healer) I can wipe the group. It's really pretty absurd.

There's absolutely no difference in this regard. What's changed is that even one standard mob hitting you does significant amounts of damage. You can't just shrug off a whole trash pack beating on you like you could in 50 HMFPs.

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Haven't tanked at 55 yet but have healed and DPSed quite a bit. Tanks are definitely having threat issues on trash and initial pull but it isn't unmanageable at this point. What's been the most unsettling has been the massive amounts of healer aggro. If I'm not careful (as a healer) I can wipe the group. It's really pretty absurd.

 

As has been said, healer aggro hasn't changed at all but mob damage has gone up significantly. As has always been the problem, if you're DPS don't kill weak -> strong or if you leave mobs without being hit your healer is going to cry. We've spent so long at the top of the gear curve that most players (even the really good ones) have developed really bad habits like ignoring weak enemies and pulling before the tank. Ironically, great tanks recover from or compensate for this and the players don't learn whereas bad (and even many average) tanks can't and the group ends up wiping. It really widens the divide between the great and the poor tanks.

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As has been said, healer aggro hasn't changed at all but mob damage has gone up significantly. As has always been the problem, if you're DPS don't kill weak -> strong or if you leave mobs without being hit your healer is going to cry. We've spent so long at the top of the gear curve that most players (even the really good ones) have developed really bad habits like ignoring weak enemies and pulling before the tank. Ironically, great tanks recover from or compensate for this and the players don't learn whereas bad (and even many average) tanks can't and the group ends up wiping. It really widens the divide between the great and the poor tanks.

 

I like how you lay the blame on the tank for being bad when it's really the DPS who are screwing up. If the DPS doesn't follow kill order and pulls before the tank, then he isn't a "really good one," even if his rotation is perfect and his DPS is top notch. He's another crappy DPS who's going to be kicked/ ignored and will wait in the FP queue for another hour. It isn't widening the divide between the great and poor tanks, it's widening the divide between good and bad DPSers, and this is coming from a tank who CAN compensate for DPS pulling, but I just choose not to because I shouldn't have to, and the neither should the healer.

 

I don't care what kind of bad habits you've formed. Break them, or be kicked. It's really that simple.

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