Please just go back to having a specific gear token dropping from each boss in MM ops. It's going to take you forever to finish Gods at the rate you're going. Having random assembled gear pieces drop as you are now (potentially for classes and specs not even present in the ops team!) only frustrates people and makes them not want to do the content. Dropping double the RNG items won't help matters much, if at all. Dropping Unassembled Components would not be sufficient reward either unless you dropped a ton of them for each player from each boss. Considering you can get UCs just from AFKing out in a corner of a PvP map or repeatedly smashing your ship into rocks in GSF all day, getting a few of them per MM boss (which you can only take down once a week per character!) would be an almost insulting gesture at this point.

 

There's too much RNG in this game already when it comes to gear and loot. Please cut it down a bit. Specific efforts should receive a specific reward every time, period.

Edited June 14, 2017 by AscendingSky

There isn't a master mode for ev so not sure why master mode gharj was mentioned. You would think you all knew which operations had master mode and which didn't Edited June 14, 2017 by Danery

Hey folks,

 

Since the launch of Galactic Command we have made great strides to change it to be a supporting gearing system versus the primary means of gearing your characters. We still have improvements to make and we will be talking more about gearing methodology in an upcoming discussion topic. For today, we really want to focus on the drops currently coming from Master Mode Operations, as this has been a hot topic. Let’s start with some context on how gearing currently works for Operations at each difficulty (all examples assume 8-player):

 

Story Mode Operations:

• Each boss drops a specific Tier 2 Legendary quality item
  
  • Ex: Soa in Eternity Vault will always drop 2 offhands

 

Veteran Mode Operations:

• Each boss drops a specific Tier 3 Legendary quality item
  
  • Ex: Soa in Eternity Vault will always drop 2 offhands

 

Master Mode Operations:

• Each non-final boss in an Operation will drop random Tier 4 Prototype and/or Artifact quality item
  
  • Ex: Killing Nefra in Dread Fortress will drop 2 random items which will be of Prototype or Artifact quality

• Each final boss of an Operation will drop a specific Tier 4 Legendary quality item
  
  • Ex: Dread Master Brontes in Dread Fortress will always drop 2 gloves

 

Gods From the Machine does not follow the above rules. Here is how that works:

• Story Mode – Each boss will drop a specific Tier 3 Legendary item
  
  • Ex: Tyth will always drop a Tier 3 relic

• Veteran Mode – Each boss will drop a specific Tier 4 Legendary item
  
  • Ex: Tyth will always drop a Tier 3 relic

 

The key issue with Master Mode is the gear you are receiving isn’t being consistently provided as it is with the other Tiers. The primary reason is we wanted the Gods from the Machine Operation to contain BiS gear and be the most consistent source for Tier 4 gear. But, since we only offer one boss encounter right now, it’s making it difficult for you to obtain Tier 4 gear. We have been discussing two ideas to address this issue and would like your feedback:

 

1. We double the amount of drops awarded in both 8 and 16-player difficulties. This means there is a random aspect of what is dropping, but there will be more chances of receiving Tier 4 gear based on the number of players participating in the Operation.
   
2. We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need. We realize Unassembled Components have been attributed to PvP activities, but we could make that adjustment.

 

So what do you think? Do you like or dislike option 1 or 2 above? Is there something you are concerned about with either idea? What idea was not mentioned that you think could solve this? Let us know!

 

-eric

 

I love option 2. I also think having more purple gear and not having the blue tier 4 drops would also help a lot, since the blue tier 4 drops are legitimately worse than the purple and legendary tier 3 drops.

 

Also, lots of the annoyance at having non legendary gear drop comes purely due to the possibility for gear that's not for you, or anyone in the group, dropping. While I understand having only tier 4 gear drop from Gods of the Machine is important to you guys, I think a significant logistical problem is simply that players are going to get tier 4 gear *anyway* due to PvP and Galactic Command.

 

I think Gear is going to have to be a lot less of a reward than it was before, and more par for the course, with more meaningful less gear based rewards being the impetus for raiding in SWTOR.

Edited June 14, 2017 by EricMusco

Hey Eric,

I really liked idea number 2 a lot as i think that the unassembled component system was a fantastic addition for PvP. You might also consider talking to the developers about making CERTAIN veteran bosses drop BiS gear as well. For example - Revan veteran mode, Master Blaster veteran mode, etc.

Both options sound like an improvement, and if I had to pick I'd take option two. Was any thought given to adding tier 3 legendary tokens to the Master Mode operations loot table in place of the Prototype/Artifact shells currently dropping, I'd happily take the lower tier of gear and some unassembled components, knowing I could upgrade them to BiS in future. Just my two cents from a raider who pvp'ed my mains to BiS.

The only skin I have in this game is that I consider myself primarily a PvP player, and option #2 involves Unassembled Components (currently a PvP reward). I have no problem with giving out UC in MM (AKA NiM) operations. Reward players for doing challenging things.

 

Now, I really wish that PvP gearing wasn't such a grind, and having PvE and PvP gear being the same creates a need for balancing the rewards for the two activities. Keep that in mind. It is currently faster to get full 236 and some 242 (EV/KP) via operations than to just straight up grind PvP (even Ranked). Then again, it is also currently easier (but time consuming) to grind warzones to go from 242-248. I think you are trying to fix this part right now.

 

I've killed maybe one NiM boss ever, so I won't comment on anything else.

 

EDIT: I clarified that I have no problem giving out UC in Master Mode ops. I didn't think anybody was going to suggest SM. It's all about the numbers of UC, difficulty, and time involved.

Edited June 14, 2017 by teclado

How about:

 

a fixed number off components on each boss, xept last one wich will drop a token.

I'd really prefer option 3, where all the Master Mode bosses drop 248 tokens. We won't be able to get BiS from Machine Gos for another 6 months.

 

But between the 2 options you gave, I'd prefer components. The random gear is pretty obnoxious, even doubling it would still cause a fair amount of frustration.

 

But to be clear, that's only if it was actually a decent amount of components. I'd suggest a sliding scale, where something like Nefra gives only a few (8) and then increasing by 4 or 8 each subsequent boss.

 

But if it would be an insulting low amount (like 2 or 4 per boss) I'd rather take my chances with the double drop.

Unassembled components should drop from ALL difficulty raid bosses. That's the only way for PVE to be anywhere near balanced with how much easier it is to get 248s through GSF.

Unassembled components should drop from ALL difficulty raid bosses. That's the only way for PVE to be anywhere near balanced with how much easier it is to get 248s through GSF.

 

This. Likewise, a small amount should be received for an Operations Weekly. Unassembled Components have become the old commendations of the pre-Galactic Command, and should be treated as such. In fact, Unassembled Components currently are more sought-after than Alliance Supply Crates, and would make for a better Heroic reward (or, even better, in addition to Crates).

Edited June 14, 2017 by BenKatarn

Unassembled components should drop from ALL difficulty raid bosses. That's the only way for PVE to be anywhere near balanced with how much easier it is to get 248s through GSF.

 

I dont think thats a fair assessment at all. It takes a LOT of unassembled components to grind a full set of gear from 236 all the way to 248, whereas you can get all 242 gear from doing a small number of operations (2 of which are some of the easiest content in the game- EV and KP). And if you are an ops player, it is significantly easier to fully upgrade by balancing doing HM operations with running pvp and gsf every week. If you are just a straight pvp or gsf player, you have to rely solely on UC's from matches and the daily/weekly and your luck with RNGsus in the crates. It is way easier to get fully geared doing ops than it is to just do straight pvp. That being said, I think adjusting either the number of UC's you get from doing PVP and GSF and adding other ways to get them so that both have a viable way to get them or reducing the cost of components for items is better than the current system. It is a huge grind, even if all you are doing is upgrading from 242 to 248 let alone if you have to start at 236 and upgrade from there. I get that it shouldnt be something that is easily done in a week or two, but right now it takes a week or two to get 1 piece unless you pvp or gsf all day non-stop and even then it takes a lot of matches for one piece. As an example, to upgrade your mainhand you would need to do the daily and the weekly and a minimun of 33 matches assuming you were able to win every single match and 88 matches if you lost every match. And thats to upgrade from tier 3 to tier 4. That doesnt include if you have to start with purchasing Tier 2 and then upgrading it to Tier 3. Making UC's legacy wide would help a bit with this, and we know they can do it- they did it with command tokens.

 

Another question I guess I would have for Option 2 is what about those operations that do not have a master mode (excluding EV/KP because just no) but are some of the hardest content still in the game in Veteran Mode (ToS, Ravagers, and at least for now Valley of the Machine Gods)? I believe and I could be wrong that HM in ToS and RaV still also drops the tier 4 artifact/prototype gear but I could be wrong. If you all were to implement a system where one could get UC's off operations bosses in Master Mode, are you going to include content that is potentially more difficult than at least some of the Master Mode content?

Master Mode bosses should drop the tier 4 tokens just like Story/Veteran drops t2/t3 tokens. Stop wasting everyone's time. This meta sucks.

 

Bring EV and KP up to Master Mode. Over tune them to deal a lot of damage and have plenty of one shots on mistakes since new mechanics aren't an option.

 

Please stop wasting everyone's time with non-traditional schemes that don't work and no one likes.

I really like version 2!!!

 

the changes you did with the patch yesterday was a step in the right direction. The problem I have with random drops on every boss, you could get a blue operativ dps gear and noone plays a operativ as an alt in the whole group.

 

aditionally you can get blue gear which is the same or even worse than the legendary gear from veteran mode.

 

If you don't place unassambled peaces in the loot table, atleast make them all purple gear so they are a little bit better than veteran mode.

I'm torn on this.

 

On one hand, it would be nice if the dailies gave unassembleds, along with the NiM Ops (no, never calling them master).

 

That way vets would be more inclined to do groupfinder (maybe help teach people wanting to learn?) for the components and progging NiM wouldn't be such a gearless endevor. It would have to be maybe ~20 per daily or NiM boss?

 

... on the *other* I think it's nice that the game rewards you for doing multiple types of content. There's people doing PvP and Ops that would have only stuck to the other previously.

 

If the above would happen the PvP components per match should go up as well, otherwise Ops would be the gear express way and PvP would get even *more* nerfed in comparison.

I really would prefer option 2 (even over having specific token drops).

 

The reason for this is that it gives you so much more flexibility with upgrading items. The ability to choose which item to upgrade 1st is a good thing. For example I could upgrade my mainhand 1st without having to clear the specific boss that drops the mainhand.

 

Next to the flexibility you also have the benefit of always being able to do the mastermodes that you like instead of bashing against a specific boss that some groupmembers hate. Also each bosskill WILL work towards you being fully BiS.

 

Lastly. It gives the people who don't want to PvP an easier time to upgrade their gear too.

 

 

So yes. Sign me up for option 2

Unassembled components should drop from ALL difficulty raid bosses. That's the only way for PVE to be anywhere near balanced with how much easier it is to get 248s through GSF.

I've actually never even tried GSF, but I wouldn't call it "easy" to get 248s via PvP, unless you consider a very long grind to be easy. Depending on numbers, giving out Unassembled Components for farming story mode ops bosses would further skew the balance in favor of operations, in terms of "ease" of getting gear. If we're talking 3 UC per SM boss, sure. If we're talking much more than that, I refer you to the fact that you can spend 20 minutes or more in a lengthy warzone and leave with only 3 UC. Then you get a shot at a 236 piece from the SM boss, which equates to over a hundred UC via PvP (purchase a 236 piece via UC directly).

 

Anyway, whatever you do, consider the balance of time and difficulty. Consider the balance of PvP and PvE both. Bluntly, you created this problem when you got rid of expertise. Just sayin'.

Edited June 14, 2017 by teclado

The second option is much better, and i'd add some to SM and HM as well (at a much lower rate) for consistency's sake.

As far as Ops drops of 248 pieces is concerned, there is the option of the MM final bosses and the "Gods from the Machine" boss(es) on VM dropping "Unassembled Gear Tokens" that are not specifically tied to any armor slot. This should let the winners of those tokens to pick gear piece for any slot from the Tier 4 vendors. This will address the issue of the 248 loot table being incomplete.

 

 

• No new drops or significant changes needed
   
   
  
• Players have to do MM Ops just as now
   
   
  
• Players have to do down the last boss just as now
   
   
  
• 2 out of 8 (or 4 out of 16) players will gain the gear just as now
   
   
  
• PvE players will have a chance to get all 14 248s from Ops
  

Hi Eric,

 

i totally disagree with new idea of dropping unassembled components in master mode operations. I think these operations should be treated like the new Boss Tyth.

 

Nightmare / Master Bosses should drop 248er Gear Tokens. I know most of these Encounters are old, but that does not mean that they aren't challanging. I know there might be differences, some are more difficult than others, but it is very important that it is worth to Play and work on these Encouters in the Raiding Community and Raiding Guilds like mine. If i just want to get unassembled components i just could play PVP.

 

So please give us back our Gear Tokens, based on the highest difficult Level in the Game.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Oeconomicus

1. We double the amount of drops awarded in both 8 and 16-player difficulties. This means there is a random aspect of what is dropping, but there will be more chances of receiving Tier 4 gear based on the number of players participating in the Operation.
   
2. We leave the amount of gear drops as is, but we add Unassembled Components to each boss. This would mean that players running Master Mode would not only be receiving a chance at Tier 4 gear, but they are also working towards being able to upgrade/purchase the Tier 4 gear they need. We realize Unassembled Components have been attributed to PvP activities, but we could make that adjustment.

 

So what do you think? Do you like or dislike option 1 or 2 above? Is there something you are concerned about with either idea? What idea was not mentioned that you think could solve this? Let us know!

 

-eric

First - THANK YOU for engaging in conversations with folks. I hope this goes some what farther than past communications with users via the Forums. (Insert H2F Musical Parody and even better Mafia Clip on Class Reps)

 

We have TOO much RNG already in this game now. Either option is viable, but it depends dramatically on what each of them really means.

 

1) Double Drop count is still RNG and not well liked thanks to "RNG is Exciting" of the CXP crates. If you made it more specific drops then maybe it will work. Like first 2 MM Bosses doubled items drop rate and increased % with only Bracers / Belt / Implants / Relics specifically dropping (Move the more desired pieces). Followed with the MID-Raid Bosses having Ear / Helm / Gloves / Pants / Boots and then the last boss or two drops 100% for Chest / Main / Offhand.

 

I'd rather see OPTION 2 move forward, but would want to know the DETAILS before going 100% on that type of solution. If it's crap drop like 10 UC then NO thank you and just go with Option 1 please.

 

2) This would need to be significant drop in UC's as you are doing NIM/MM content here. I'd suggest 50 UC's per boss would be the sweet spot. If you kill five bosses you have enough to upgrade ONE item, but still need a few more kills for UC's if it's the Main/Off item. PLUS the tokens already dropping as RNG. I use the comparison someone else did when you get like 5 UC's for sitting off in a corner in PVP/GSF for losing.

 

I'd rather see Permanent Specific Token Drops on specific boss like we have ALWAYS had. Just because the new Operation is not READY I agree we shouldn't penalize people. I'd also love to see WAY more CXP packs in MM as well since they seem "Lacking" in reality. Worse case - Option 2 with UC's and better if they are 75 or 100 per boss.

Edited June 14, 2017 by dscount

Master Mode Operations:

• Each non-final boss in an Operation will drop random Tier 4 Prototype and/or Artifact quality item
  
  • Ex: Killing Nefra in Dread Fortress will drop 2 random items which will be of Prototype or Artifact quality

 

I feel the need to correct you because that is just not correct unless you are only talking about 16m which I have not done Nefra NiM in 16m. I have with my team killed Nefra NiM (and other bosses as well just using this as an example since it is used as an example here) and it is only ever 1 piece of either 244 or 246 gear. We have never seen it drop two pieces in 8m, and a huge part of the problem is that randomness. With the exception of 1 or 2 pieces which were actually useable by the group, we have gotten gear for Marauders (which we do not have in our current group make up) Juggernaut DPS (which we do not have in our current group make up) Sorc DPS (which we do not have in our current group make up). That randomness makes it almost completely unnecessary because you absolutely cannot rely on Master Mode Operations in order to get gear needed to do the content. If there were a way to guarantee that while it would be random prototype/artifact gear it would actually be completely useable by your current group make up it wouldnt be nearly as terrible as it is right now.

along with the NiM Ops (no, never calling them master).

 

Sure sure don quichotte.

By any chance, do you call it Normal mode, Hard mode and Nighmare mode? I hope so. Else your statement holds little value.

Now I think of it. How were the lowbe flashpoints being called before Bioware changed Normal mode to Story mode? I assume it was normal mode too? Afterwards it changed to story and now its tactical.

 

Moral of the story. Feel free to call it however you want. If you feel good by calling it Ultimate dungeons than nobody would stand in your way. Just not how its being called

 

Without joking / sarcasm; I get what you mean. Not sure why they changed it to master mode. But hey. They did it so I guess we'll have to live with it. Or fight against the Bioware windmills.

I'm not sure if this will be popular or not, but how about having bosses all master mode that go down drop 2 pieces of gear instead of one to help temp players to players into playing master mode (kind of like a carrot on a stick). And maybe a new weekly that offers the same amount of CXP as the regular ones but have this one offer some assembled components.