I know. Obnoxious title. Sorry!

 

Background:

 

I've been a Pyro specced PVPer since before 1.2. I'm 90+ valor and still Social I. All I do is PVP. For ranked, my team is 34-6 and my elo is 1600. My 3 man won our server's 3v3 tourney, and placed 2nd in the 4v4 tourney. I'm also a certified Advanced Prototype despiser. I've hated it from the beginning.

 

Then 1.3 and ranked hit.

 

Let me be honest with you. In pre-ranked play my main focus was on damage and bursting down healers. If my damage wasn't number 1 at the end of the match, I took it as a failure to play my best regardless of whether the game was won or lost. I think pyro spec cultivates this mindset. Your sole purpose is burst, and if your damage numbers lack at the end of a match it is often a direct indication of how skillfully you played.

 

So, ranked dropped with a simultaneous relic/adrenal nerf, and although I've been winning lots of matches against solid players, pyro has felt confining to me. On a whim I respecced AP. I've played AP a few times and felt that it just couldn't hold up to pyro for PVP. I just tried it on a whim one morning to freshen up my game play.

 

What I noticed immediately is that now that relics have been nerfed, AP's damage is not that far off of pyro. It is less. No doubt about it. Although on some of my maps I've felt that if I had been pyro, I would be doing less damage than AP simply due to the speed at which I can be in the fight. Novare is a speed map. Hutball requires incredible mobility. The new Voidstar even requires speed and well timed stuns. Pair general speed with an fast grapple and quell cooldown and you have a build that is exceedingly adept at objective oriented play. It's also started to occur to me that sending folks to the spawn zone as fast as I can is not always a sound strategy.

 

In all the matches I've now played with AP, I've taken 1st or 2nd on the damage charts even beating an equally geared pyro. I'm more mobile. My grapple is on a fast cooldown, so Huttball is even more fun. HO allows me to play an offensive roll, whereas before as pyro I was pure middle control/defense. Pop HO, shield and the PVP adrenal and you can run right through the fire pits to score. Quell is on a fast cooldown which is excellent against healers and dps alike. With my build I was able to spec 3 points into Steely Resolve for 9% Aim boost.

 

Since ranked hit, because pyro is so slow in comparison to other classes, I'm usually relegated to holding turrets and nodes. When we need to reinforce, it usually makes sense for my team to send someone who can get to the objective fast. Since a win is more important that huge numbers in ranked play, I'm fine with that. But I can't help but think that mobility and control are the new kings of high-level PVP.

 

Are there disadvantages? Of course! Prototype Flame Thrower is still a little whacky for me. I am not using the 12 second rule because I still see flame thrower as a situational move. Don't get me wrong, I'm constantly working for a 5 stack of PFT but I've been conservative in when and where I use it.

 

I am also doing AP with Eliminators set. I'm fully augged, and min/maxed with power/surge enhancements. I'm starting to work on getting the Combat Tech armoring so I can plug it in and get the CT bonuses as I do believe they are better for AP.

 

Is AP really better than Pyro for ranked? Despite the controversial thread title, I'm not about to make that argument. In fact, I haven't run AP in an actual ranked game yet because I still feel like I'm learning the flow of AP.

 

Now that ranked has hit, it's dawning on me that huge numbers at the end of match doesn't mean that I affect the outcome of that match. I'm starting to wonder if I would rather get to that node faster, grapple that ball carrier into the fire more, avoid stuns and roots and overheating, and have my interrupt on a faster cooldown than have that 5-10% more damage.

 

Any other pyros adjusting their perspective now that ranked has hit? Anyone else think that AP just might be a better objective-based build for high-level PVP?

Edited June 30, 2012 by FeralPug
clarification

"It's also started to occur to me that sending folks to the spawn zone as fast as I can is not always a sound strategy."

 

You're rank 90+ and you learn this now?

 

.....

 

Better late than never I suppose.

"It's also started to occur to me that sending folks to the spawn zone as fast as I can is not always a sound strategy."

 

You're rank 90+ and you learn this now?

 

.....

 

Better late than never I suppose.

 

You're just learning the concept of sarcasm now?

 

Don't be an ***. Respond to the content pls.

An inspiring story of how a player learned that damage at the end of a game means close to nothing, this is rare and downright unheard of

 

I do agree that AP/Tactics (I'm a Vanguard) has a more "tactical" side to it as opposed to Pyro/AS, however in RWZ i picture PT/VG as the class you bring to anihilate targets. There are other ACs that have much greater mobility and are better suited even then AP at the whole "get there fast and be a pain in the ***" thing, while Pyro is way up there when it comes to burst and killing stuff fast. Because yes, situationally, sometimes it is better to not kill your oponents, but most of the times nuking that healer down fast is more important.

 

What I'm trying to say is that yes AP has more utlity then Pyro and all in all is more of a pain in the ***, however there are ACs that do it better then AP and have other advantages so might as well stick to what Pyro does best which is make people disappear.

 

Just my opinion tho. I've only played Pyro and only occasionally messed around with AP so yeah, this is all just thinking out loud

 

Just my opinion tho. I've only played Pyro and only occasionally messed around with AP so yeah, this is all just thinking out loud

 

Thanks for getting my post. I'm not trolling, or making any absolute statements (in spite of the trollish title!).

 

Pyro's burst got rounded out in 1.3 with the relic/adrenal nerf. I'm getting very similar damage numbers, and having similar kill times with AP but with a truckload of utility packed in.

 

I know we had a "try AP for a week" thread when it was buffed in 1.2. I think 1.3 might be an even better time to give it a whirl because I don't think the relic/adrenal nerf impacts it quite as hard as it does pyro.

 

Would love to hear from folks who are running it in ranked play. Again, I'm not going to use it in ranked yet as I have folks who depend on my burst. When I'm comfortable with it, I'll give it a shot.

 

Would also love to hear from folks who have combat logged both pyro and AP post 1.3.

No, just no. AP is NEVER better than pyro in ANY situation.

No, just no. AP is NEVER better than pyro in ANY situation.

 

In huttball AP is better. You can win huttball matches with minimal kills. I would much rather have an AP than a Pyro for huttball.

 

Rather someone run off to a corner and heal than die and respawn in front of our ball carrier at an inopportune time, unless of course it's our jug running it and then we tactically coordinate to kill ONE person to provide a jump.

Ive been playing my assault vanguard pretty much since release, (i leveled as shield) and i have to say, im actually liking tactics more then assault for rateds. Any smart team will lock the assault down and really limit what he is able to do. Tactics has so much more utility, and also has better survival, and while it still has really strong burst, it still isnt even on the same level as assault.

 

Im currently 18-1 in rateds with tactics, i actually decided to try it out since in 1.3 they finally fixed the snare on pulsecannon. Anyways, after playing assault for so many months its nice to have another competetive spec to play around with.

You're just learning the concept of sarcasm now?

 

Don't be an ***. Respond to the content pls.

 

Stop defending it with sarcasm, when it was not. Stuff like "Your sole purpose is burst, and if your damage numbers lack at the end of a match it is often a direct indication of how skillfully you played." clearly show this. Good try though.

 

And to the topic, no, Pyro is still better.

I'm not in ranked yet as I'm still leveling but I have been running the pyro build simply because it is an awesome burst spec that is great for killing quickly and getting rid of healers but I have some issues with it. One being that PT Pyros are probably running neck and neck with mara's for who will be next to face the nerf bat and although it may not come until the next update rolls out which could be 6 months from now and I could just enjoy it while it lasts, I don't want to get comfortable with a spec only to see it nerfed to the ground and have to switch to AP anyway (yeah I know, dumb reason but that's how I see it, flame away)

 

Another issue I have with Pyro is as you say it has no additional benefits like there are in the AP tree, the reduced CD on grapple is good for multiple reasons not just for huttball, better survivability in damage mitigation, run speed buff and reduced interupt cd, also AP is not as dependent on a single cylinder, you can switch to the ion cylinder if you need to guard and still be effective, not nearly as effective but not as gimped as if you were to switch as a pyro.

 

As I see it, yeah you will have a dps loss from just straight up damage loss but you might make up for it by getting to nodes/team mates/ball carriers faster, lasting longer and being able to grapple people into traps more. I think it looks like it may be worth it in the long run and I'm going to try it out.

 

My question to you OP is are you using RS or are you just sticking to the NORSE build? and could you link your Build?

Edited July 1, 2012 by jadjay

Stop defending it with sarcasm, when it was not. Stuff like "Your sole purpose is burst, and if your damage numbers lack at the end of a match it is often a direct indication of how skillfully you played." clearly show this. Good try though.

 

 

By the end of the post he says that he's come to terms with the fact that damage done at the end of a ranked warzone means jack ****. Just saying, read the whole thing

I used to say the same thing about arsenal and tracer spam, but at the end of the day it brings down armor on people and works well behind killing healers...Ive seen a few more AP specced guys running around, I may give it another go as HO is pretty nice to use and the bleed cant be cleansed like fire can...its something to try out...if only my guildies would log on to play ranked WZs

No, just no. AP is NEVER better than pyro in ANY situation.

 

Its A LOT more fun though.

I've played pyro since 10-40, only just now have I decided to spec into AP, and honestly..I prefer to drop some damage in exchange for fun and the ability to never overheat due to low heat cost and heat ventilation, also people underestimate the damage proto flamethrower does with 5 stacks if your defending a node. I'm only level 42 and gear isn't augmented and what have you, so my damage won't be gas great as 50s, but i've been critting 1.5ks with 5 stacks of proto flamethrower, if you get lucky enough to find yourself hitting more than a few targets then its serious damage. Edited July 1, 2012 by WaldoA

1- havent read the whole thread but my question is about your points

 

2- is 3/3 steely resolve better than 8 or 10 points in pyro to use combustible? that's what i've used with my tactics spec since trying it.. i just get the other 2 points for some extra resource when stunned since its a pvp build.

 

 

50 vanguard (now on ebon hawk) 0/31/10

50 powertech (now on prophecy of the 5) 4/6/31 (reactive shield gear energy rebounder spec)

Edited July 1, 2012 by mrObtuse

AP only beats Pyro in HB IMO. In ranked as a PT you are brought to blow people up. i'm 20 something and 5. 2 losses down 8v7 or 8v6. 1 loss against my own guild. 2 losses in HB against very good Jugg's who are OP in HB and the only time I wanted my AP spec back.

 

The best ranked guilds bring 1-2 PT/Vang (in pyro) for the burst. Like someone else said, there are other classes better suited for backing/getting to objectives for support then AP. Just because your damage may be close doesn't mean things are die'ing as fast. I can only speak to premades not solo q'ing or w/e. Healers seem to live longer against AP then Pyro even with nerf to adrenals.

 

But like I've always said, play what you want. Just dont' make an inflamatory title that is pretty much except HB blatantly wrong.

As far as utility goes AP is better than pyro, hydraulic overrides alone is a step up. Pyro is one note single target damage, it plays that note very well, even for someone who isn't that good at PvP. AP can match or surpass Pyro for DPS if he/she wants to, but it (usually) isn't the way to win a wz. I always find the pyro damage argument very interesting because there usually isn't an argument. It's usually just a statement about quick procs or a "check out this screen shot".

 

In a civil war last night I decided to take my AP and just do DPS (I'm fullly power aug'd but only chest/main hand WH). This doesn't prove anything, we were just doing this for fun (and will again because it was very fun ). We ran 1 rage jugg, 1 Merc Pyro and 1 PT Pyro. We didn't peel for healers, didn't care about objective, we just wanted to do DPS. (we actually won, go figure)

 

I was the only one to top 400k damage (just over 400k), the others were between 260k-310k. AP has great sustained damage because it's very difficult to overheat, I never have. As far as up time (just counting the number of deaths) From top to bottom AP, Jugg, PT pyro, Merc Pyro.

 

From my experience 1.3 made AP stronger. Flame burst is hitting 2.8k-3.6k over half the time. That's used to be just a stackbuilding attack but now it melts people. I had immolate hit for 4.3k on a guardian last night, that's insane. I'd be interested to know if others have also found AP to become "better" since 1.3

I'm really enjoying the responses, folks. Almost as much as I'm enjoying AP .

 

Yesterday I was holding a turret solo on CW in an unranked PUG. Three marauders came at me and between HO, carbonize, electrodart, snares and the flamethrower slow I was able to kite them long enough for help to arrive. Having been in a similar situation many times running pyro, I can assure you that I would have been dead before help arrived.

 

I've also been finding PTF to be great for healer/tank duos. Grapple one in on top of the other, carbonize, explosive fuel and roast. I've been able to throw DFA afterwards and it has been devastating.

 

HO allows you to run the ball very well in HB. If my shield is up, I just run straight through the fire pits without problem.

 

I also feel like I can take merc healers faster with AP than with Pyro due to Hitman. On the other side of the coin, Op healers stay alive a little longer with AP than with Pyro.

 

I also have been noticing huge numbers, especially on Immolate. I routinely get 4600 with Immolate on geared players. I was able to put 3 points into Steely Resolve to grant 1940 Aim. Really nice.

 

Sticky dart is fantastic against clumped players, and adds a little bit of burst. I also occasionally spam missle blast on 30m targets. It's lackluster in the damage department, but it forces people to move.

 

I think the constant challenge of forcing/finding good situations in which to use PFT is really the highlight of the gameplay for me. It's very tactical, and very rewarding if you can line everything up well. It's also so rarely played (at least on my server) that I think it surprises a lot of opponents. Many are so used to slowing and kiting me, that when I launch into HO and overwhelm I think it catches many off guard. I know this isn't a good reason to pick a class, because the best players quickly adapt. Pyro's are predictable though, whereas AP's rotation is a little nutty.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm still not championing AP over Pyro for ranked. I think it is just as viable, and I'm finding it both more challenging and rewarding.

Edited July 2, 2012 by FeralPug

Does HO remove existing snare/root on you, or only prevents new ones?

I have been running maverick in 2 flavors.. one just straight and the other with pulse cannon.. I read the old stuff about having pulse cannon not doing as well damagewise.. it seems very hard for me to tell the difference between the two.

 

Im just wondering why more people are not running it. It has tons of mobility and the goodness of the fire cell..Plasma cell im a vanguard so I dont know all the BH naming stuff.. although I like the bh forums much better. In any event other than heat and some survivability.. why not do maverick with PG. Im talking pvp. I run it with the rail shot talent that gives you energy and paralytic stims which gives you energy.. seems ok with heat or ammo. Sorry for mixing the names lol.

 

Opf said it didnt have the burst of AP or Assualt.. I get the assault but the constant dps seems a bit better since the patch and I can kite better with it since you get the 50% slow from sweltering heat. Another thing about the burst, If I have 3 dots rolling on them plus critting railshot/HIB every 6 or so seconds.. that takes them down pretty quickly.

 

With AP I pretty much felt like I had to be in their face the whole time. Not that that is bad but im stunned all the time.. if they even sense it going off they burn a stun on me.. ofcourse this is pugs.. maybe in organized teams ap is stronger. Also I get the fact that if they burn it on me they are not burning it elsewhere.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Morath

Does HO remove existing snare/root on you, or only prevents new ones?

 

Yes but not stuns.

First a recap... By specing into AP you GAIN mobility (HO, Passive run speed increase), shorter grapple cooldowns and you keep about 75% of pyrotech's DPS, damage per second. (Am i missing anything?)

 

By specing into AP you LOSE the most important thing when it comes to killing targets in pvp. BURST. The ability to time your TD with your railshots/dots and do 10k damage instantly to a target is not something to be shrugged off. Powertech is known for its complete lack of mobility and its ability to hit like a truck. Why give up on something so important just so you can run a huttball a little better? Your marauders, juggernauts, and assassins should be running the ball anyway... If you want to be living up to your full potential as a powertech you shouldnt be tanking and you shouldnt be AP.

 

The scorescreen can be misleading at times. Wins are not determined by kills alone. That being said, I've always thought that as a dps class the scorescreen is at the very least a good measuring stick. When you have a powertech putting up 600-700k damage in a warzone and the juggs/marauders/sorcs/snipers are doing 300k~ you are essentially TWO PEOPLE. The fact that you have the potential to do so much more damage then the other classes is reason enough to assume you're gimping yourself by not playing pyrotech.

 

My guild is somewhere around 100 - 4 so far in the preseason running 2 tank assassins, 2 pyrotechs, 2 healers, a marauder and another dps spot that often rotates between operatives or really just whoever else is on. We have offense and defense. We've played to our classes strengths and if you want to be successful in rated warzones that is exactly what you have to do.

 

p.s. Maybe you are having trouble doing 500-600-700k+ damage games. That's either A. a gear issue or B. a L2P issue because top end pyrotechs on all servers should be averaging those numbers in every game they play.

Edited July 6, 2012 by lolcthulhu

Pyro is the only spec you guys should play for dps if you want to be competitive.

 

2242 ELO

128 Wins

3 Losses (1 disconnect and 2 with pugs)

Won my server's 4v4 tournament.

 

I play on Tomb of Freedon Nadd (Biggest server in Europe)

Edited July 6, 2012 by uzairzaidi

First a recap... By specing into AP you GAIN mobility (HO, Passive run speed increase), shorter grapple cooldowns and you keep about 75% of pyrotech's DPS, damage per second. (Am i missing anything?)

 

....

 

p.s. Maybe you are having trouble doing 500-600-700k+ damage games. That's either A. a gear issue or B. a L2P issue because top end pyrotechs on all servers should be averaging those numbers in every game they play.

 

I've been in full min/maxxed war hero gear weeks before 1.3. Those numbers you list are easily obtainable by a pyro who is supported by a decent team, but can you directly correlate damage with wins? Some of my highest damage games were losses.

 

Honestly though, if dps is king, maras and pyros should not be chosen over dps assassins. The single highest damage per second number I've seen post 1.3 was 858 dps (I'm not talking final total, but actual damage per second sustained throughout a full length VS match) by a dps assassin. On top of that they stealth, force sprint, shroud, sleep-dart etc.

 

I still have not specced AP for ranked, as I'm still adapting to the spec and finishing my combat tech suit as it is far superior to Eliminator for AP. This is all still just thinking out loud for my part, though in unranked play I'm often beating pyro's end damage and coming within 20-30k of others all while being able to hold nodes longer, score 2-4 TD's from the center post in HB, and get to nodes faster. My deaths at the end of a match are significantly less when playing AP as well.

 

Not to mention the fact that several advanced classes can all but shut down the damage a pyro can do with railshot. AP's damage relies more heavily on sustained, unmitigated damage.

 

I started this post to see if any other pyro's are seeing the potential of AP, especially in strictly objective based play. I was mostly wondering if there were any pyro's experimenting with AP who also were on good ranked teams and had good AP-oriented gear. So far it looks like the answer is no.

I've been in full min/maxxed war hero gear weeks before 1.3. Those numbers you list are easily obtainable by a pyro who is supported by a decent team, but can you directly correlate damage with wins? Some of my highest damage games were losses.

 

Some of my highest damage games are losses too. I can't say getting huge numbers wins games, but i can say that the reason why i lost the game that i did 950k damage on novarre coast was due to my team having crappy pugs. There are so many factors that come in to winning games and as long as you are doing your job as a powertech you should be satisfied. If you are doing 700k in ranked (this is about my average in a full length warzone against a good team) and your team is losing consistently, get a new team.

 

And also i disagree with your comment about dps assassins being the best dps class. Maybe ive just never seen any good ones but i think pyrotechs have better burst thats more sustainable over long fights AND are harder to kill. Pyrotech is king right now.

Edited July 6, 2012 by lolcthulhu