Your best case is my worst case.

 

I think, out of all possible outcomes, him dying in the Foundry is the best case scenario, because that leaves four other options:

 

1) Your option, where he becomes someone else's sidekick and errand boy.

2) He becomes a raid boss, and ends up spending the rest of his days as a gear slot machine.

3) He does nothing but stand around while asking you to do things as a quest giver - as a man that was always about doing things himself when possible, that's pathetic and demeaning.

4) He only gets a token mention in the annals of history and is otherwise forgotten entirely.

 

Let the man die, so that the new generation can continue his work in honor of his memory. He had his time, let it be someone else's.

5) Join the player(s) in a quest line/FP/Op and go out in a blaze of glory.

Just sayin, you missed one.

5) Join the player(s) in a quest line/FP/Op and go out in a blaze of glory.

 

Just sayin, you missed one.

That's still generally relegating them to point 1, because if he does all the work/takes all the spotlight, it'll make players feel like rubbish. If he doesn't, people will complain because he's just a sidekick and they're 'underplaying him'.

I'd rather him go out swinging against the Empire's best and be done with the matter. Without assistance, because he doesn't need it to hold his own. :U

That's still generally relegating them to point 1, because if he does all the work/takes all the spotlight, it'll make players feel like rubbish. If he doesn't, people will complain because he's just a sidekick and they're 'underplaying him'.

 

I'd rather him go out swinging against the Empire's best and be done with the matter. Without assistance, because he doesn't need it to hold his own. :U

I'd certainly not feel like rubbish just because one of my all-time-favorite characters in the whole Star Wars universe stands in the spotlight at the end of a quest series. Please meditate on that again - I'm sure you'll find enough self-confidence to also not feel the way you described.

Though I agree on your comment Revan shouldn't run along like some mercenary. If you've played the Jedi Knight storyline on Voss, you'll probably know who Tala-Reh is. If you let her do as she wishes, she has quite the heroic moment, too. Before, she joined the fight against some madman. Maybe such a thing would be more fitting.

On the other hand, maybe it shouldn't be a real sacrifice at all but just some things Revan wants to be done before she finally dies (maybe after all that time and having outlived almoste anyone important to her, life isn't THAT attractive anymore). There could be some great cameo-moments there, even if it won't fit my personal Revan as she was female, so certainly Satele Shan cannot be her child. She was in love with Carth Onassi. (Has somebody found sign of him, anyway? I liked him so very much).

Whatever it's going to be - I still trust BW to make up something really good. Only thing I know for sure is - I wish for an elaborate 1 on 1 personal dialogue scene with Revan to be able to "say goodbye" - without any other player.

I'd certainly not feel like rubbish just because one of my all-time-favorite characters in the whole Star Wars universe stands in the spotlight at the end of a quest series. Please meditate on that again - I'm sure you'll find enough self-confidence to also not feel the way you described.

Personal feelings on this on a one-for-one subjective basis are irrelevant. Widespread data tends to suggest that on the whole, that players in MMORPG environments (and RPG environments in general) hate feeling like they're just a sidekick and/or token fixture in someone else's story.

It was a driving complaint in World of Warcraft (Illidan and Arthas had final blows struck by other lore-centric characters and people expressed concerns of feeling cheated out of a victory they rightly earned). It showed up as a major complaint about the story content for DCUO (a lot of the story-arc missions have you playing sidekick to a lore-centric character). It even has a series of tropes named after it (the WoW examples are closer to Kill Steal, whereas the DCUO example is closer to GMPC or Deus ex Machina).

There are a lot of people, I imagine, that play TOR that aren't aware of who Revan is or why they should care. What about them? Should they have to deal with being hand-held through something by an NPC they're only told is supposed to be awesome? That's unfair. I don't doubt that Bioware can write it well, but I don't think it'll solve anything at all. There exists no way that would even please all of the people that do like Revan.

I loved the KotOR series, and I'm honestly more upset by the Exile's death then I am Revan's. But I'm willing to accept both, because this isn't their time anymore. They had their time - letting them continue to hog the spotlight to give people that can't and likely won't accept his death in any way, shape, or form some kind of false closure that they'll ignore anyway is bad storytelling.

On the other hand, maybe it shouldn't be a real sacrifice at all but just some things Revan wants to be done before she finally dies (maybe after all that time and having outlived almoste anyone important to her, life isn't THAT attractive anymore). There could be some great cameo-moments there, even if it won't fit my personal Revan as she was female, so certainly Satele Shan cannot be her child. She was in love with Carth Onassi. (Has somebody found sign of him, anyway? I liked him so very much).

 

Whatever it's going to be - I still trust BW to make up something really good. Only thing I know for sure is - I wish for a 1 on 1 dialogue scene with Revan to be able to "say goodbye".

I still think the Foundry is a fine sendoff for Revan, as the alternatives don't feel any better to me (personally). I loved the character, but for someone that's set up as a tragic hero constantly throughout everything they've been in, I think a tragic end and one that has a lot of emotional impact (if it didn't, why are we talking about this in multiple forums in multiple threads? Clearly some people are passionate about it) like was already done works. It sets a very bitter tone and may still have fallout. There's just as much story potential in him dying in the Foundry as there is in him living, and possibly more depending on where they want to take it.

He's going to die sometime - there's worse ways to go out then this. Ask Chewbacca and Grievous how they feel about how they got treated.

Personal feelings on this on a one-for-one subjective basis are irrelevant. Widespread data tends to suggest that on the whole, that players in MMORPG environments (and RPG environments in general) hate feeling like they're just a sidekick and/or token fixture in someone else's story.

 

It was a driving complaint in World of Warcraft (Illidan and Arthas had final blows struck by other lore-centric characters and people expressed concerns of feeling cheated out of a victory they rightly earned). It showed up as a major complaint about the story content for DCUO (a lot of the story-arc missions have you playing sidekick to a lore-centric character). It even has a series of tropes named after it (the WoW examples are closer to Kill Steal, whereas the DCUO example is closer to GMPC or Deus ex Machina).

 

There are a lot of people, I imagine, that play TOR that aren't aware of who Revan is or why they should care. What about them? Should they have to deal with being hand-held through something by an NPC they're only told is supposed to be awesome? That's unfair. I don't doubt that Bioware can write it well, but I don't think it'll solve anything at all. There exists no way that would even please all of the people that do like Revan.

You make a point there - I admit. I can only say, that there also lots of players who don't approve of being hailed to all the time (which is the backside of the "you're-the-all-time-number-one-thing"). Those people feel, success comes to easy, too often and is too exaggerated over minor things. Moreover, there is a difference between letting one guy stand in the spotlight during -one- cutscene after -one- quest-series and the final blow in some epic raid that you've beein working on for months. Just saying..the fight against lich-king where you die, get revived and then finish him off was quite the epic thing, too, even after having killed him more than a dozen times - though, players weren't alone in the spotlight. I think you get my meaning: there -are- ways to do this in a good way.

Should people still feeling like rubbish have to handle that? They sure should because it would show a huge lack of personal development if they didn't. I admit, they should rather go find a good therapist than loading that responsibility on BW, though.

I loved the KotOR series, and I'm honestly more upset by the Exile's death then I am Revan's. But I'm willing to accept both, because this isn't their time anymore. They had their time - letting them continue to hog the spotlight to give people that can't and likely won't accept his death in any way, shape, or form some kind of false closure that they'll ignore anyway is bad storytelling.

 

I still think the Foundry is a fine sendoff for Revan, as the alternatives don't feel any better to me (personally). I loved the character, but for someone that's set up as a tragic hero constantly throughout everything they've been in, I think a tragic end and one that has a lot of emotional impact (if it didn't, why are we talking about this in multiple forums in multiple threads? Clearly some people are passionate about it) like was already done works. It sets a very bitter tone and may still have fallout. There's just as much story potential in him dying in the Foundry as there is in him living, and possibly more depending on where they want to take it.

 

He's going to die sometime - there's worse ways to go out then this. Ask Chewbacca and Grievous how they feel about how they got treated.

It's fine by me that you are content with the foundry. Really. As you can see there are many players feeling differently and I don't think those concerns can be discussed away.

EDIT: Oh, and Revan dying in a dusty-rusty foundry is just pathetic from my personl point of view. They could also have make Revan breed kittens there to throw them at the players that would've aroused the same feelings in me.

As many players of the Empire know, there's a flashpoint where you enter a Foundry area [i'm mainly Republic so I don't know the name] and it was owned by Revan. I knew Revan had to be alive during the game even before I found out about the flashpoint. I had reasoning with Revan being so strong in the Force, he can survive 300 years as Yoda did for 800-900 years.

Yoda's species has a lifespan around hundreds of years, it's not Yoda himself. Revan has been in stasis for a long time, it's the reason of why he survived that long. As I said in a different post, he might have been a great hero of his time but he has been weakened and maddened during the time he endured the Emperor's assault to his mind.

You can't beat a Sith in the game of deception truth to be told. Everything might not be as they seem to be.

I was appalled--a travesty. I guess maybe "he's alive," and in some sense this was Revan not "going out like a punk," (since otherwise he was presumably killed by the emperor,) but it's nonetheless awful and poorly thought-out. Hearing HK talk about getting ready to exterminate the Sith certainly suggested a better game arc than I was playing. "Hey, character I like! Let's assemble a team--errhhh--this isn't KOTOR 3." Sure, Revan is weak after stasis! He needs to "level up"! HK-47 rescues you 300 years later! Imagine that cutscene!

Instead I'm killing this epic Joseph Campbell hero--I'm basically killing Han Solo and Luke. Uh, "awesome," and unexpected.

I've killed plenty of Jedi as my Sith, but my unwillingness to kill Revan just drove home how unseriously I was taking the story. I'm not saying Bioware didn't put tons of work in this game, or it's not uniquely fun in an MMO way, but story is spread so thin across the 8 classes and vast playtime, there's no way any class story remotely compares to KOTOR 1 or 2. And those stories were 30 hours apiece. "Content" is mostly questgivers, and literally 65% of the time I have no idea what quest is which or why I'm doing it, even with the dialogues and story contextualizing.

I was a little more upset just fighting HK-47. This is the best "Star Wars" character in recent memory and he's reduced to a boss, as opposed to *having something substantial to do in the game.* That's more an opportunity-lost thing, independent of "lore."

Statement: HK-47 (or 51) could have replaced the Imperial Agent as "Assassin Droid" class--we learn there are a number of elite HK-47 clones that the Emperor commissioned. That's a class everybody would want to play, whatever customization options it offered.

So whatever--Revan doesn't "go out like a punk," he's defeated, held in stasis, then quadruple-teamed by four of the empire's best (which could have happened 300 years previous but didn't)--okay. I guess I accept it, but "Mass Effect 2" is the spiritual successor to KOTOR, not TOR.

"Mass Effect 2" is the spiritual successor to KOTOR, not TOR.

They better bring Revan back because Revan's final line angered me. First off Hk was stronger than Revan dissapointing.

Second he utters the same line Malaks does about the darkness taking ahold of him and him being nothing.

***? That happened to Malak because Malak was evil if (Keep in mind they originally intended this to be the final end of Revan) leaving Revan like that is a insult to the character.

What happened to there is no Death there is the Force? You had Revan die like he was going to dissapear into nothing yet during the entire battle he screams I AM JEDI.

Also Bioware Revert Revan's appearance BACK to how it was in BETA.

In Beta you had his hood up while wearing the mask and that looked awesome. His hood down with the mask just looks stupid. Why would you change it to make it look worse. Plus without the mask and his hood down he also looks stupid.

You seriously destroyed your most Iconic character in every possible way.

You make a point there - I admit. I can only say, that there also lots of players who don't approve of being hailed to all the time (which is the backside of the "you're-the-all-time-number-one-thing"). Those people feel, success comes to easy, too often and is too exaggerated over minor things. Moreover, there is a difference between letting one guy stand in the spotlight during -one- cutscene after -one- quest-series and the final blow in some epic raid that you've beein working on for months. Just saying..the fight against lich-king where you die, get revived and then finish him off was quite the epic thing, too, even after having killed him more than a dozen times - though, players weren't alone in the spotlight. I think you get my meaning: there -are- ways to do this in a good way.

Should people still feeling like rubbish have to handle that? They sure should because it would show a huge lack of personal development if they didn't. I admit, they should rather go find a good therapist than loading that responsibility on BW, though.

 

 

 

 

 

It's fine by me that you are content with the foundry. Really. As you can see there are many players feeling differently and I don't think those concerns can be discussed away.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Revan dying in a dusty-rusty foundry is just pathetic from my personl point of view. They could also have make Revan breed kittens there to throw them at the players that would've aroused the same feelings in me.

I am going to have to point out a big hypocrisy.

I can only say, that there also lots of players who don't approve of being hailed to all the time (which is the backside of the "you're-the-all-time-number-one-thing"). Those people feel, success comes to easy, too often and is too exaggerated over minor things.

That was Revan, that was the story of KotOR. If you weren't praised for being an awesome paragon you were reviled as an evil, twisted masochist. Canon-wise, you are basically saying "Some people well don't like this" with the implicationn that a number of Revan fans don't want to just be praised for being awesome and want Revan to be there instead when that was what Revan was in and of himself, a beacon to be praised.

You get:

-A cult worshiping him and believing he is some savior and enlightened being of greatness. He is the Christ, the Buddha of the Revanites.

-A chance to see him 300 years later when he should be dead? Would you have preferred an obscure reference or recording of him dying at the hands of the Emperor in some flashpoint, raid, or quest of a character's story?

-An entire flashpoint dedicated to finding and freeing him (Republic), then killing him and finishing his tale (Empire). You basically get to perform the final rites to this character and enjoy the Tragedy of Revan

I view Drew's book like this, one big tragedy. It makes Revan much more appealing then a Mary Sue people bring him up as since KotOR II that a hag who lies, exaggerates, and twists says. He ends up defending his family and children at the cost of agony for 300 years with even his closest ally and loyal companion being so close yet so far that he is without even knowledge of her presence. He has been alone and assaulted mentally by a beacon of darkness that pries at him to tear his mind to shreds. He finally is freed and given the chance to assist the galaxy, he then is finally placed in a corner as he is shown having reached a twilight point between light and dark with extremely gray if not dark decisions. After a battle with 4 of the Empire's strongest servants, he finally is defeated and possibly dies, embracing the darkness for he may have reconciled he too made many mistakes and let the Dark side cloud his judgement.

^ This Revan is far more poetic, interesting, and enjoyable imo than what a lot of people want from him.

The fact you got him in this timeline should make you happy. This game is about succeeding KotOR and its sequel and telling the new story of your character, the class you pick. You got the conclusion you all wanted, you got the chance to find him. You knew when this game was in development you were not playing as Revan or the Exile so let them go and enjoy their characters for what they are, not who you played them to be.

My take after running "The Foundry" flashpoint...

Revan did not "die".

You get him down to around 4% health than he does his force lightning ball of light explosion to distract you while I escape out the back trick.

If you didn't space bar through the end conversation, the Imperial mentions not only repairing the HK unit that was destroyed but possibly making it better (ergo... HK-51 is the rebuilt & upgraded HK-47).

I am going to have to point out a big hypocrisy.

 

I can only say, that there also lots of players who don't approve of being hailed to all the time (which is the backside of the "you're-the-all-time-number-one-thing"). Those people feel, success comes to easy, too often and is too exaggerated over minor things.

 

That was Revan, that was the story of KotOR. If you weren't praised for being an awesome paragon you were reviled as an evil, twisted masochist. Canon-wise, you are basically saying "Some people well don't like this" with the implicationn that a number of Revan fans don't want to just be praised for being awesome and want Revan to be there instead when that was what Revan was in and of himself, a beacon to be praised.

 

You get:

 

-A cult worshiping him and believing he is some savior and enlightened being of greatness. He is the Christ, the Buddha of the Revanites.

 

-A chance to see him 300 years later when he should be dead? Would you have preferred an obscure reference or recording of him dying at the hands of the Emperor in some flashpoint, raid, or quest of a character's story?

 

-An entire flashpoint dedicated to finding and freeing him (Republic), then killing him and finishing his tale (Empire). You basically get to perform the final rites to this character and enjoy the Tragedy of Revan

 

I view Drew's book like this, one big tragedy. It makes Revan much more appealing then a Mary Sue people bring him up as since KotOR II that a hag who lies, exaggerates, and twists says. He ends up defending his family and children at the cost of agony for 300 years with even his closest ally and loyal companion being so close yet so far that he is without even knowledge of her presence. He has been alone and assaulted mentally by a beacon of darkness that pries at him to tear his mind to shreds. He finally is freed and given the chance to assist the galaxy, he then is finally placed in a corner as he is shown having reached a twilight point between light and dark with extremely gray if not dark decisions. After a battle with 4 of the Empire's strongest servants, he finally is defeated and possibly dies, embracing the darkness for he may have reconciled he too made many mistakes and let the Dark side cloud his judgement.

 

^ This Revan is far more poetic, interesting, and enjoyable imo than what a lot of people want from him.

 

The fact you got him in this timeline should make you happy. This game is about succeeding KotOR and its sequel and telling the new story of your character, the class you pick. You got the conclusion you all wanted, you got the chance to find him. You knew when this game was in development you were not playing as Revan or the Exile so let them go and enjoy their characters for what they are, not who you played them to be.

Being a Revan fan doesn't consequently have to mean you're also eager for adulation. Of course it's nice to be appreciated every once in a while. All I said was that at the moment -playing swtor- there's a lot of people who find the approval you get all the time *slightly* too exaggerated. By that I actually mean they find it a hell lot exaggerated. Some of them feel the title "Jedi Master" comes to early for Consulars, for example. They feel awkwardly humbled by the fact they're celebrated as heroes for minor tasks. And that's the way I sometimes feel, too. Doesn't mean I want no commendation at all as I already explained...this is about the degree. Of course you cannot suit everybody.. All I said was that there aren't only people who feel like "rubbish" when some NPC jumps into the spotlight. There's also those people who don't want to be overly appraised of all the time.

I understand you like the story-ending as it is - well, I don't. It's not at all poetic or heroic from my point of view (and as you can see, I'm not alone with this opinion). Yeah, I'm happy you get to meet Revan. I just don't like that Foundry thing at all. Please don't try to force your special perception of this on me or anybody else. Just be happy that BW did a good job from where you're standing. I never said Revan should have been stronger or anything. She just deserves a better ending. I would have liked to alone with Revan, not three other players in that dialogue who'd choose different options, don't ask the questions I'm interested in. And BW has already proved they know how to make dialogues in a way so you can choose, what Revan was for you. They should've done something like this here, too. They created Revan for us to play once. They gave us the freedom to choose, what path Revan walks on. I just don't take the argument that Revan is theirs alone and that's why we should shut up. BW wants us to enjoy the game, mind you and as Revan still is important to many of us, it cannot honestly BW's intention to make us give up on a great character.

WARNING *SPOILER ALERT - SPOILER ALERT* DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT IT TO BE SPOILED******

Not going to touch this or anything that is in the thread - just useless Yes - No - Yes - No as should Sith Inquisitor be Pure Blood..

After leafing through this thread i get the impression that very, very few people here read the book Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan? You don't have to speculate how he lived so long when you can just look it up on Wookieepedia, and if memory serves it was also mentioned in Boarding Action (the intro flashpoint to Foundry).

WARNING *SPOILER ALERT - SPOILER ALERT* DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT IT TO BE SPOILED******

 

As many players of the Empire know, there's a flashpoint where you enter a Foundry area [i'm mainly Republic so I don't know the name] and it was owned by Revan. I knew Revan had to be alive during the game even before I found out about the flashpoint. I had reasoning with Revan being so strong in the Force, he can survive 300 years as Yoda did for 800-900 years.

 

I was glad they gave him a face to his mysterious stranger personality of masking his face. [Did anyone catch the reference? ^_^] But the way you left his story was just horrible. I'm sorry, but the way HK was destroyed too was pretty bad as well. In KotOR II you have a mini-quest to repair him, and I'm sure if you had the chance to do so again you would, but he won't be the same and I'm positive the Empire just destroyed him.

 

Revan had such a rich history and made the KotOR games amazing. Revan was the star of it, not the Wars, not the companions, Revan. His book was amazing and answers some left-over questions we had such as the Emperor, True Sith, the Exile, etc. I just don't like how you left him like that was horrible.

 

His death should've had been more honorable and even make the most ruthless Empire players feel bad about killing him. I hope you plan on doing something with his death like maybe he transported through the Force or something. I know it was time to say good-bye to our faithful friend, but I just think it should've been more cinematic for him. He is the one of the only reasons why The Old Republic was made and had so much success because KotOR players knew the back-story.

 

I hope you enjoyed part of my rant, just sad to see his death this way instead of another way.

HK-47 lives on.

Four millennia later, HK-47 was found on the planet Mustafar, where his memory core was preserved within the computer of a derelict starship. HK-47 manipulated a group of spacers who discovered him, having them create a new body for him and then subsequently turning on them with the help of several battle droids.

"The Foundry was just a setback!!" opening line of the upcoming expansion pack Wrath of Revan.

hahah. +10

I think they just wanted to close the book on Revan in an appopriate, non-cliche fashion.

I'm sure a lot of people expected some Ops raid in an expansion or later as DLC would give him as the ultimate bad guy that we have to work together to fight....and I'm glad they chose not to go down that route.

It was very fitting for his character.

Even the HK fight was fun, and I feel at least in HK's part they elft it open for continuation.

I'm sure that Revan could make another appearance as a force ghost taking over people's bodies that we have to defeat....I mean Palpatine supposedly did it in one of the EU stories. SO win-win...we get nice closure so people aren't always asking "what about Revan" and possibilities for future involvement are there.

The question I'd love to get an answer from BioWares writers is - how exactly a bunch of nobodies could kill what could be the most powerful Sith/Jedi of all time? I do know, that if somehow Revan was to go back to the Republics side, he would have probably tipped the balance in their favor, but still I feel like what they did with him was a huge lack of imagination.

They're not nobodies. Any one of them would be a match for Revan, imo.

The question I'd love to get an answer from BioWares writers is - how exactly a bunch of nobodies could kill what could be the most powerful Sith/Jedi of all time? I do know, that if somehow Revan was to go back to the Republics side, he would have probably tipped the balance in their favor, but still I feel like what they did with him was a huge lack of imagination.

Revan was never the most powerful Jedi nor the most powerful Sith.

The whole notion of one all-powerful warrior hero who can defeat everyone is tired and silly. As a republic trooper I couldn't believe the Jedi General sacrificed all those soldiers just to free him. It was valiant but ludicrous (got some darkside points on that flashpoint).

As powerful as Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader were, that type of nonsense never made it into the original movies.

Revan's story was a good story in KOTOR, but (s)he's just a mortal and that story needs to end.

I think the problem is that, since Revan clearly *is* alive in the TOR timeline, having him die in a mid-30's flashpoint, which only half the population would actually see, just seems demeaning. Not to the character -- who, for all intents and purposes, isn't particularly exceptional beyond just being brave -- but to the fans of KotOR.

Quite frankly, I would've preferred Revan have gotten a "Happily ever after" story after KotOR, but because his story was stretched out, it takes away that sense of closure. The way I look at it, I want to see Revan find rest, but preferably on more of a bittersweet note, rather than purely a sour one.

Of course, you can't deny the excitement of Revan coming back to lead the Republic as Mandalore steps up to the plate in a future expansion --- that's pure speculation on my part, but it definitely seems like the most bold move they could do, after... certain "events" take place at the end some of the Stories.

I think, ultimately, Revan just feels too much like a footnote -- a cameo-appearance, if you will. Considering our Happy-Ending was ripped away from us, we deserve to get a better conclusion.

Personally? I'd like to see Revan make an appearance, not as some General for the Republic, but play to his mysterious nature. After the conflict with the Emperor ends, have him appear to Bastila Shan and Mandalore, and show that he now seeks to make peace before "becoming one with the Force", from fatal wounds.

For Republic, his farewell-speech would involve revealing his identity as her ancestor, profession his love for Bastila (maybe have her spirit appear briefly here?), and basically reaffirm that Satele is supposed to go on to be the true hero, and that as he fades away, he is at peace in Bastila's embrace.

Empire characters, not to be left out in the cold, could meet Revan (presumably before the meeting with Satele) alongside Mandalore. Mandalore, knowing Revan is dieing, allows Revan to make his way to the Republic before passing on. Before he leaves, Revan might commend Mandalore for his exceptional show of honor, commenting that even Canderous Ordo would be proud to fight alongside this latest Mandalore.

A bit melodramatic, but I think it's the sort of thing that would both bring closure to fans of the original KotOR, while also giving The Old Republic some breathing room. Satele Shan is obviously meant to be the hero of the Republic now, but that doesn't mean Revan's fate should be meaningless. As that's what it feels like, as of right now; meaningless.