I find it to be a disgrace that pvp is as unbalanced now as it was 9 years ago. Is this due to sheer neglect or lack of effort?

 

Having 2 classes dominate the rest on the pvp stage, some having self heals while others have none etc. I see more and more people leaving the pvp scene out of pure frustration that no balancing between the classes are ever made. Do you consider it legitimate that people will need to make specific characters for pvp as some classes just are obsolete in comparison to others? Should not all classes be able to provide equal pvp experience instead of 1-2 of them being vastly superior to the rest (Smuggler & Operative) / (Guardian & Juggernaut)?

 

If there is no intention to do anything about these issues then atleast a clear warning should be placed in the character creation section to let people know which classes are most suited for pvp and which one’s aint.

 

It’s about time something is done about this before you lose your entire pvp playerbase.

While I agree there are ways to improve PVP you are never going to have a situation where all toons of different classes are equal. NEVER. Ranged/Melee/AOE heals...There are always going to be advantages and disadvantages to every class.

 

So what do you suggest to fix the issues you feel are present that also doesn't unbalance PVE group content? Separate gear? Separate PVP stats? Completely different builds in PVP? Cause they have inherent flaws also.

While I agree there are ways to improve PVP you are never going to have a situation where all toons of different classes are equal. NEVER. Ranged/Melee/AOE heals...There are always going to be advantages and disadvantages to every class.

 

So what do you suggest to fix the issues you feel are present that also doesn't unbalance PVE group content? Separate gear? Separate PVP stats? Completely different builds in PVP? Cause they have inherent flaws also.

 

Some classes having 4 self heals while others having 1 or none? Some being able to hit 60k damage in 1 strike while others barely crit into the 20s. The changes needed are quite obvious and should not impact pve more than it has in other games that made these adjustments.

Overall, balance is bad for sure, but i doubt that leaving it to BW and only BW would lead to a better outcome. They haven't exactly be the smartest in the past when it comes to balance decisions. I'm kinda tempted to dive back into it and propose them some balance changes, but at this point we've gone so far down the strange things that you'd need to rework both set bonuses and how classes/specs work as well, as each change you will do will definitely affect PvE on the side, which we don't want to break as well.

Pvp balancing, the most started thread in any mmo since forever...yawn. You have to be more precise about what you want to be done or this just seem like a babyrage thread. If you are a someone with good knowledge about the game and the classes why dont you give some advices on changes then.

Pvp balancing, the most started thread in any mmo since forever...yawn. You have to be more precise about what you want to be done or this just seem like a babyrage thread. If you are a someone with good knowledge about the game and the classes why dont you give some advices on changes then.

 

It’s blatantly obvious at this stage, but i will humor you, besides im a founder.

 

With that sorted, as mentioned, some classes having self heals and shields to drown in, others do not, this does not affect pve as pve is by standard based on raid/group situations where tanks and healers eliminate the need for dps to have self heals/shields. Not completely obviously but the pve triangle “tank,dps,healer” limits the usefulness of these aspects.

 

As for the rest, *Yoda mode on* asking for a complete rehaul we are not *Yoda mode off*. Once again, seeing how subject A can, with equal skill of Subject B and C, completely dominate them both at the same time due to sheer imbalance in damage and class based imbalance. This is not a simple matter to solve but a slight polish might be due?

It’s blatantly obvious at this stage, but i will humor you, besides im a founder.

 

With that sorted, as mentioned, some classes having self heals and shields to drown in, others do not, this does not affect pve as pve is by standard based on raid/group situations where tanks and healers eliminate the need for dps to have self heals/shields. Not completely obviously but the pve triangle “tank,dps,healer” limits the usefulness of these aspects.

 

As for the rest, *Yoda mode on* asking for a complete rehaul we are not *Yoda mode off*. Once again, seeing how subject A can, with equal skill of Subject B and C, completely dominate them both at the same time due to sheer imbalance in damage and class based imbalance. This is not a simple matter to solve but a slight polish might be due?

 

Yes but PVE is also not just group/Raid...there is solo also. How do you make a HEALER as effective in PVP without overpowering them in PVE as an example. It's not simple, and it's why as others have said MMOs have struggled with this because when you have different classes there is never truly going to be balance, someone always has the advantage..and generally as MMO devs fight to balance PVP the more unbalanced PVE becomes or you get drastic approaches like separate gear, abilities working different in PVP etc.

 

So if you can give specifics changes for DEVs to consider...maybe they will....who knows.

It’s blatantly obvious at this stage, but i will humor you, besides im a founder.

 

With that sorted, as mentioned, some classes having self heals and shields to drown in, others do not, this does not affect pve as pve is by standard based on raid/group situations where tanks and healers eliminate the need for dps to have self heals/shields. Not completely obviously but the pve triangle “tank,dps,healer” limits the usefulness of these aspects.

 

As for the rest, *Yoda mode on* asking for a complete rehaul we are not *Yoda mode off*. Once again, seeing how subject A can, with equal skill of Subject B and C, completely dominate them both at the same time due to sheer imbalance in damage and class based imbalance. This is not a simple matter to solve but a slight polish might be due?

 

Yes of course it needs polishing on certain specs and classes. As long as the game is running it will need balance patches. You should still come up with ideas like "How about giving juggs 30% DR for 6s after they intercede" "Any damage a jugg do during Endure Pain is stolen". (meme examples)

 

I doubt any dev is actually good at pvp so feeding them non-biased ideas is probably the best way.

PvP Balance overall is pretty good in this game. Every class has strengths and weaknesses and not a single class is "unplayable" or "overpowered" in both ranked and regs (apart from jugg tanks). Some classes perform better overall and/or in certain situations than others but it's literally impossible to fix that problem in an MMO. There are very few "obvious" balance issues that come to mind at the moment - examples would be Grit Teeth Tac and Forcebound set for Jugg tanks and EP set/Powerload Tac for PT dps.

PvP Balance overall is pretty good in this game. Every class has strengths and weaknesses and not a single class is "unplayable" or "overpowered" in both ranked and regs (apart from jugg tanks). Some classes perform better overall and/or in certain situations than others but it's literally impossible to fix that problem in an MMO. There are very few "obvious" balance issues that come to mind at the moment - examples would be Grit Teeth Tac and Forcebound set for Jugg tanks and EP set/Powerload Tac for PT dps.

 

Ummmmm..... Are we playing the same game..... most classes only have 1 viable spec. Please explain how balanced the following are Madness vs Lighting or Ani vs Fury...... PT tank vs Jug..... OP dps vs Sin dps..... We have strictly better specs/classes right now.

Edited February 23, 2021 by TmoneyTime

Ummmmm..... Are we playing the same game..... most classes only have 1 viable spec. Please explain how balanced the following are Madness vs Lighting or Ani vs Fury...... PT tank vs Jug..... OP dps vs Sin dps..... We have strictly better specs/classes right now.

 

All these are viable and work well in warzones. Obviously some are going to be a little more powerful in some or all situations than others. But that doesn't make those less powerful unplayable or unfun, that's what balance being good means.

 

The only way to make it so that none of the classes has any advantage over the other is to move towards all classes being the same and erase class identity. This can't happen in a mmorpg or any rpg for that matter. You are looking for other genre of games as a point of reference.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Kaedusz

All these are viable and work well in warzones. Obviously some are going to be a little more powerful in some or all situations than others. But that doesn't make those less powerful unplayable or unfun, that's what balance being good means.

 

The only way to make it so that none of the classes has any advantage over the other is to move towards all classes being the same and erase class identity.

 

Balanced gameplay means that you will not be more penalized than another player for picking a different option, and that in the end, Skill should be the deciding factor when looking at how a class performs around and against others. To put it in an easier way, you shouldn't have to put a bigger amount of effort into a class in order to achieve the level of contribution another one has.

It doesn't mean that every class will contribute to a game in the same way, but it means that each and every class has its purpose and none is better than another.

 

This is not the case right now, if you want some example and testings for you to do, I am waiting for your results as a Hatred Sin in ranked and unranked against a Deception Sin. Or a Tank Powertech agains Tank Jugg. Or a lethalithy operative against a concealment... You get my point.

 

And yes you could also go the way of making everybody more bland. However, this is not the only option, and this is especially easy to do on a MMO, where everything is just numbers and defined successions of actions/reactions. The fact that Bioware has been bad at it until now doesn't mean that every mmo has such blatant skill difference between class.

I think the majority of complications have come from the devs trying to balance abilities based on both pvp and pve. It would be much simpler to just separate the two fields of play and have some abilities perform better or worse in pvp than in pve. Just to give an example, it wouldn't take much effort to add in a bit of text reducing firefall's damage by 50% in pvp. This isn't a new concept either. I can think of a number of mmos that have addons similar to that for their abilities.

 

If Bioware cared enough about the life of this game, they would've made changes like these a long time ago. They could have the actual theory-crafting done for free just by getting together a group of highly experienced players and having them spent a month or so working on rebalancing every ability that needs to be changed. All that would be left after that is implementing all those changes in the game.

Honestly, I prefer this to the smash monkey days of old.

I think the majority of complications have come from the devs trying to balance abilities based on both pvp and pve. It would be much simpler to just separate the two fields of play and have some abilities perform better or worse in pvp than in pve. Just to give an example, it wouldn't take much effort to add in a bit of text reducing firefall's damage by 50% in pvp. This isn't a new concept either. I can think of a number of mmos that have addons similar to that for their abilities.

 

If Bioware cared enough about the life of this game, they would've made changes like these a long time ago. They could have the actual theory-crafting done for free just by getting together a group of highly experienced players and having them spent a month or so working on rebalancing every ability that needs to be changed. All that would be left after that is implementing all those changes in the game.

 

It would have helped a lot if they could pinpoint the actual issues regarding a spec or a class, as the correct fix usually avoids hurting the side that isn't concerned.

 

As an example, you can look back on how they handled Arsenal Mercenary in 5.0

 

Everybody told them that there was an issue with a dps being able to facetank everything. Pvp broke because of Mercenary's ridiculously strong defensive cooldowns and peoples complained about them for months, asking for rightfully deserved nerfs.

 

Bioware went and nerfed... Arsenal's damage. The thing that nobody asked for. So the issue of stupidly strong cooldowns stayed, in PvP, and they gutted Arsenal in PvE.

 

If they actually understood the issues, and worked on solving them properly (nerfing the defensive cooldowns) and letting their damage as is, Arsenal would have stayed relevant in PvE and wouldn't have contributed to ruining PvP like they did in 5.0

 

You can balance things without separating PvE and PvP, but it requires actual understanding and knowledge on how the game works.

Balanced gameplay means that you will not be more penalized than another player for picking a different option, and that in the end, Skill should be the deciding factor when looking at how a class performs around and against others. To put it in an easier way, you shouldn't have to put a bigger amount of effort into a class in order to achieve the level of contribution another one has.

It doesn't mean that every class will contribute to a game in the same way, but it means that each and every class has its purpose and none is better than another.

 

That actually makes my point. If you playing high elo well if matching making worked correctly or grouped ranked, certain classes/specs you dont bring. They are not viable at all. Jug is the only tank your going to run. Your never going to run a sin over an op. Carnage over Fury..... nope not gonna happen.

 

Viable means that classes can compete with the others frankly they can't.

 

2nd problem that has always been around is classes that are easy tend to actually have the most advantages with dps. Never really understand why AP PT has more damage then Vigilance Jug. AP PT is way easier then the JUG.

 

Why can ranged classes parse higher then sins maras jugs....... who knows.(well we do know actually Melee in this game gets cried about when its half-way decent ruthless aggressor change anyone. Death Knell nerf but heaven for bid we nerf electro net the outrage)

 

In Real Terms Melee should always parse higher due to up-time more mechanics evolved it not the case right now.

It would have helped a lot if they could pinpoint the actual issues regarding a spec or a class, as the correct fix usually avoids hurting the side that isn't concerned.

 

As an example, you can look back on how they handled Arsenal Mercenary in 5.0

 

Everybody told them that there was an issue with a dps being able to facetank everything. Pvp broke because of Mercenary's ridiculously strong defensive cooldowns and peoples complained about them for months, asking for rightfully deserved nerfs.

 

Bioware went and nerfed... Arsenal's damage. The thing that nobody asked for. So the issue of stupidly strong cooldowns stayed, in PvP, and they gutted Arsenal in PvE.

 

If they actually understood the issues, and worked on solving them properly (nerfing the defensive cooldowns) and letting their damage as is, Arsenal would have stayed relevant in PvE and wouldn't have contributed to ruining PvP like they did in 5.0

 

You can balance things without separating PvE and PvP, but it requires actual understanding and knowledge on how the game works.

 

Ok I'm going to point out the country sized elephant in the room here. The reason for all these ridiculous DCDs is solo ranked. This completely worthless and impossible to balance mode is causing most of the class inbalance now and has been for a long time.

 

There IS NO WAY to balance 4 dps vs 4dps deathmatch. There never was, there never will be. Guild wars 2 can't do it and their game is completely built around nothing but dps. There will always be 1 class that is the first target to focus. It might be the best class in group ranked, it might be ridiculously OP in warzones, it might be literally the only class people take into NiM content, but it can still be the poor little darling that is focused in solo ranked.

 

Originally the poor darlings were the juggs, so BW gave them a super OP ED which was just insanely OP. They nerfed to to just OP after a few weeks (I remember I used my PvE geared jugg who I barely knew how to play and got easy wins in solo ranked in those days). Afterwards it was the the snipers, after that it was the mercs, after that it was the PTs, and now it is juggs again (seriously, has no one other than kreia figured out assassin is the best target yet?). I guess we need to give these poor darlings another super OP defensive CD because they get focused in solo ranked, right?

Ok I'm going to point out the country sized elephant in the room here. The reason for all these ridiculous DCDs is solo ranked. This completely worthless and impossible to balance mode is causing most of the class inbalance now and has been for a long time.

 

There IS NO WAY to balance 4 dps vs 4dps deathmatch. There never was, there never will be. Guild wars 2 can't do it and their game is completely built around nothing but dps. There will always be 1 class that is the first target to focus. It might be the best class in group ranked, it might be ridiculously OP in warzones, it might be literally the only class people take into NiM content, but it can still be the poor little darling that is focused in solo ranked.

 

Originally the poor darlings were the juggs, so BW gave them a super OP ED which was just insanely OP. They nerfed to to just OP after a few weeks (I remember I used my PvE geared jugg who I barely knew how to play and got easy wins in solo ranked in those days). Afterwards it was the the snipers, after that it was the mercs, after that it was the PTs, and now it is juggs again (seriously, has no one other than kreia figured out assassin is the best target yet?). I guess we need to give these poor darlings another super OP defensive CD because they get focused in solo ranked, right?

 

That's my point as well. Overbuffing something doesn't make for good balancing as well. To be honest, mercs would have been more than fine in 5.0 if they had half of what they received. Even their reflect ability would have been enough for them to make a difference. Good mercs were able to play without it, but after 5.0 dropped, even bad mercs using all cooldowns at once were gathering enough wins to get gold, just because nobody could compete.

 

While I agree that solo ranked was probably the reason why they got so buffed, there wasn't a need to buff them so much that they'd be invincible against other class. There is a difference between giving one more defensive ability to a class and making them so good that you're throwing a game if you're not playing it.

 

As an example, Hatred Sin when compared to Deception. Hatred struggles due to low survivability. Does this mean that they need three full life in order to be viable ? Hell no, you can buff them decently so they can become decent without being OP (maybe reducing the damage they take from targets afflicted with their dots, like 5% per dot, to match the perma 15% damage reduction that Deception has).

 

And maybe if Bioware was more focusing on giving damage dealers offensive abilities instead of trying to make them play like a skank, we wouldn't be that much running into issues. But I guess it's too hard to come up with creative offensive abilities or passives.

 

Same goes for tanks, who should behave more like protectors and less like immortal beasts. Giving them more tools to defend their team allows them to have an impact without needing to gear with dps equipment. But hurr durr, tonk doesn't need tank stats because cooldowns are too strong.

Balanced gameplay means that you will not be more penalized than another player for picking a different option, and that in the end, Skill should be the deciding factor when looking at how a class performs around and against others.

And you are not penalized that much. The worse off classes and specs are not so bad that they are unplayable/unfun and completely useless. Skill still matters a lot with those classes/specs.

 

I can't for the life of me name a game where skill is the only thing that matters, even a FPS. Maybe chess.

You are going to have to live with the fact that some classes and specs are worse than others in different situations including pvp in general or different situations in pvp - Defending a node, 1v1, trench warfare fest in middle, arena etc.

 

Btw playing the underpowered spec/class is fun for some people, so there is that also.

 

If one wants to be a god with every class and spec just because of their skill, that's a wrong attitude, because this is not the right game to channel some kind of super competitive PvP energy.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Kaedusz

And you are not penalized that much. The worse off classes and specs are not so bad that they are unplayable/unfun and completely useless. Skill still matters a lot with those classes/specs.

 

I can't for the life of me name a game where skill is the only thing that matters, even a FPS. Maybe chess.

You are going to have to live with the fact that some classes and specs are worse than others in different situations including pvp in general or different situations in pvp - Defending a node, 1v1, trench warfare fest in middle, arena etc.

 

Btw playing the underpowered spec/class is fun for some people, so there is that also.

 

If one wants to be a god with every class and spec just because of their skill, that's a wrong attitude, because this is not the right game to channel some kind of super competitive PvP energy.

 

I think that you forgot the part right after, which IMO is the most important :

 

The goal is not to make every class "a god tier dps" with cooldowns better than anybody else. The goal is to have any class be able to contribute in some way or another to a victory.

 

This is not the case currently, and I will ask you one more thing. Again, let us take Inquisitor, be it sorcerer or assassin. For the sake of variety, we'll take sorcerer this time.

 

We clearly identify what is the goal of Lightnin sorcerer in PvP. It's a highly mobile burst dps, so his contribution is basically "move around, chunk down the enemy's HP". It's pure, simple, damage oriented contribution, with shields on top of this. It works well because... It's good at dealing damage, and has support abilities with the small bubble it can provide.

 

Now comes the question of Madness : what does Madness actually bring to the table ? It has nowhere the amount of damage and pressure Lightning has, doesn't have more defensive support options, and doesn't provide any more offensive buff that lightning can already provide. So again, it contributes less to a game in any way, and the difference is easily noticed by anybody who did put time playing the two.

 

Where I disagree however is that you said that I want everybody to be "god tier", which is completely false. What I proposed earlier for Hatred isn't to make it "god tier", the goal is just to reduce the gap between the specs as much as possible when it comes to overall contribution (damage dealt, damage prevented, healing done, damage amplified)

 

Again, and I'm sure you can agree on this, you should not lose a ranked game just because your opponent has a strictly better class than yours. Or you should not be a deadweight to your team in unranked just because you picked a spec that virtually does nothing against what is considered the meta picks. But ! And this is where I agree with you, you shouldn't make everyone a "god-tier" class as well. But the difference between "best" and "worse" shouldn't be as distinct/big as it is now.

Edited February 24, 2021 by supertimtaf

My issue is that Bioware hasn't made any sort of PVP balance changes in 6+ months. This is a complete lack of attention by the devs.

 

This is a not acceptable.

That's my point as well. Overbuffing something doesn't make for good balancing as well. To be honest, mercs would have been more than fine in 5.0 if they had half of what they received. Even their reflect ability would have been enough for them to make a difference. Good mercs were able to play without it, but after 5.0 dropped, even bad mercs using all cooldowns at once were gathering enough wins to get gold, just because nobody could compete.

 

In my experience, 99% of mercs are horrible. While the other classes have many players of variable skill, the merc is unique that it basically only has the elite players like asana and everyone else is a horrible backpedalling clicker. Probably due to the fact the class is so braindead easy to play it draws the worst people. If they only gave them the shield for example, it wouldn't change anything, they would be back here complaining the next day.

 

While I agree that solo ranked was probably the reason why they got so buffed, there wasn't a need to buff them so much that they'd be invincible against other class. There is a difference between giving one more defensive ability to a class and making them so good that you're throwing a game if you're not playing it.

 

Not probably, solo ranked WAS the reason. Mercs were actually the best class for ops at the time, and the defenses did almost nothing for group ranked as the meta became derp at the time.

 

As an example, Hatred Sin when compared to Deception. Hatred struggles due to low survivability. Does this mean that they need three full life in order to be viable ? Hell no, you can buff them decently so they can become decent without being OP (maybe reducing the damage they take from targets afflicted with their dots, like 5% per dot, to match the perma 15% damage reduction that Deception has).

 

Deception is not very good, so I don't know why you are using it as a standard. Out of all the "viable" specs, it is probably the worst one. Ironically one of the things that keeps this spec out of meme tier is the fact that very few people realized that it should be first target after PT. They are given more freedom to quickly dish out their front loaded burst and then taunt/off guard people. Try focusing the assassin next time and you will see how good deception really is. A little more passive defense will do nothing for hatred. The spec itself is an oxymoron that never should've been made in the first place. A light armored melee DoT spec that has no defensive CDs to speak of, whose setup time is huge and specializes in fluff damage ... is suddenly going to become good because of a little more passive defense? Are you serious?

 

And maybe if Bioware was more focusing on giving damage dealers offensive abilities instead of trying to make them play like a skank, we wouldn't be that much running into issues. But I guess it's too hard to come up with creative offensive abilities or passives.

 

Well they tried that ... many times. Hatred in 3.0 and 6.0 deception are examples (sticking with sins since you brought them up) and people kept whining and complaining about being focused. I'm going to say this again, because you seem to have missed the point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance 4dps vs 4dps in a deathmatch. There will always, ALWAYS be one class that is the first target. ALWAYS, no exceptions. Balancing by power will do nothing but exacerbate this.

 

Same goes for tanks, who should behave more like protectors and less like immortal beasts. Giving them more tools to defend their team allows them to have an impact without needing to gear with dps equipment. But hurr durr, tonk doesn't need tank stats because cooldowns are too strong.

 

Remember how everyone "pinky swore" to start using tank gear if only the crits would be blocked by absorb. People don't want balance, they want their class to be OP, that's all. The people who actually want real balance don't post here complaining. It's the old phrase "dear company, please nerf paper and buff rock, scissors is fine, signed rock".

“ Deception is not very good, so I don't know why you are using it as a standard. Out of all the "viable" specs, it is probably the worst one. Ironically one of the things that keeps this spec out of meme tier is the fact that very few people realized that it should be first target after PT. They are given more freedom to quickly dish out their front loaded burst and then taunt/off guard people. Try focusing the assassin next time and you will see how good deception really is. A little more passive defense will do nothing for hatred. The spec itself is an oxymoron that never should've been made in the first place. A light armored melee DoT spec that has no defensive CDs to speak of, whose setup time is huge and specializes in fluff damage ... is suddenly going to become good because of a little more passive defense? Are you serious?”

 

You hardly remain unbiased yourself as you pointed out yourself “Deception is not very good”. Is it justified that some specs are “not very good” and others are more or less mandatory? Allowing “FoTm” to reach divine levels does no one any favors. People that plays broken classes ofc want their classes to remain broken so they can faceroll and spam emotes with little effort, this however is not favorable for the potential future of the game unless you are fine with milking the Cartell market dry and have it end up like Tera where people only log on to open loot boxes and trade outfits?

 

I sincerely ask people to try remain unbiased and refrain from stating the obvious or this article will just be discarded as another troll post, which was not the intent.

My issue is that Bioware hasn't made any sort of PVP balance changes in 6+ months.

So much this

Edited November 13, 2021 by EmperorRus

Every class having their “anti class” that is very hard to deal with 1v1 is perfectly acceptable. But having 2 classes that can take out a small group by themselfs and having enough time to spam emotes ans gloat while doing it? Operator and juggernaut are god tier classes in pvp right now and i very much doubt that could slip anyone’s attention.

 

Do we really need to head back to 2012 when commando where 1 man armies doing as much damage as healing, allowing them to take on 5 people by themselfs?

 

Yea sure the commando players had good time basking in their overwhelming power, but if you look past that and at the situation as a whole. Should there really be a “king of the hill” spec/class that, regardless of skill or even compensating for the lack of it, is vastly stronger in all situations? Does this not damage the diversity of things?