Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes.

Yeah except for Powertech, who got the electro dart nerf but get nothing in return. That was my go-to stun at range (and only stun, at range) and go-to ranged interrupt in the event jet leap was on CD (very likely).

Did you guys forget Electro Dart is a BH skill and not a MERC skill? What do we get in return for this loss of utility?

Euh... have you ever looked at the population of the PvP servers and compared the PvE servers? Every counted how many warzone groups there are and compred witht he number of FPs & OPs groups?

 

But sure... go ahead... keep thinking PvP is equally important. Just don't cry when EVERYONE left the game.

Server population means nothing. I play on a PvE server because I dont like open world griefing, I want my PvP to be consensual. There are many who feel the same.

As to counting the number of flashpoints etc, I have actually done this. On server reset days, flashpoints and operations outnumber warzones. As the week drags on, the numbers shift the other way until you end up with warzones outnumbering pve group content on sunday's and mondays, quite often thursdays as well.

But you are missing the point. I never said PvP was the most popular activity, I just said it was a hugely popular one, which is true. I also don't want this game made in to a pure pvp game as I am aware that it would effectively kill it. First and foremost I'm a raider. Secondly, I'm a PvPer. After that, I prefer flashpoints, after that its all the same.

If they made this game 100% PvE, myself and most of my guildies would quit. If they made this game 100% PvP, myself and most of my guildies would quit. I, like most MMO gamers, enjoy a variety of activities when I log on and I'd like to see development in all of them. Developing a functional endgame PvP system is one of the most effective ways to retain your playerbase, equally as important as churning out new raids and flashpoints, creating new races, developing new classes, creating new planets etc.

Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

And what would you do if 100% of that feedback is negative? Oh, I know, you'll leave the changes as is and let them go live. Why even bother?

Sorry to say this, but Assassins, Shadows, Jugs and Guardians say hello. During the last round of nerfs (Yes. They were nerfs.), there was tons of feedback, thread posts with actual numbers to back up the testing for the classes I named, and all of it was summarily ignored. Not one change or tweak was implemented. It went through as advertised. ...So I'm sorry Allison if I have to call shenanigans on that statement. Y'all have already proven that the PTS is a sham and that whatever testing that the players do is for naught because y'all are going to do what you want to do regardless.

 

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody got on the PTS to crunch the numbers again after how they were treated the last time.

^ This. Pretty much exactly what I thought after reading her last sentence.

And what would you do if 100% of that feedback is negative? Oh, I know, you'll leave the changes as is and let them go live. Why even bother?

If you are going to answer your own question.. Why bother asking in the first place?? Just saying..

I am fairly certain that with ENOUGH complaints from the community, they will listen, but it will take a TON.

A thread I introduced pre-launch complained about the speeders... they were ONLY the Se-quay style ones, with no cars or speederbike style.

They changed after thousands of posts agreed.

So, we just need to keep this alive and tell them emphatically NO.

I am fairly certain that with ENOUGH complaints from the community, they will listen, but it will take a TON.

 

A thread I introduced pre-launch complained about the speeders... they were ONLY the Se-quay style ones, with no cars or speederbike style.

 

They changed after thousands of posts agreed.

 

So, we just need to keep this alive and tell them emphatically NO.

Yeah because they had no intentions of ever releasing any more styles of speeders...

Anyways they always say when the patch hits the PTS that they listen to the community for feed back and all notes are subject to change. I would say that 99% of the patch notes do not get changed, pretty much when they put a patch note in you can be almost certain that it will not bet getting changed at least before the patch.

we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes.

 

Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

1.3 says "hi". Not only did the devs not listen to any feedback, they didn't even reply to tell us why we were being ignored. For example, I don't recall a single post that liked the change to Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow. The feedback on Guardian/Juggernaut changes was easily 95% negative, proven by hard numbers to be a massive nerf to a class/spec that didn't need nerfing, and you pushed it through anyway. I know other 1.3 changes were also unpopular, but the JG/SJ had the most posts and negative feedback, yet somehow received no dev replies...not even a "FU" post.

Anyways they always say when the patch hits the PTS that they listen to the community for feed back and all notes are subject to change. I would say that 99% of the patch notes do not get changed, pretty much when they put a patch note in you can be almost certain that it will not bet getting changed at least before the patch.

When they announced the healer nerf in 1.2, some argued "hey, this is subject to change" Well, guess what, it didn't.

If they announce this without having an clear ETA for the actual patch, kinda tells me they are committed to them since they're willing to take the heat in advance.

I fear there will be more, and for same reasons. Again, everybody will get screwed because of "pvp balance".

When they announced the healer nerf in 1.2, some argued "hey, this is subject to change" Well, guess what, it didn't.

If they announce this without having an clear ETA for the actual patch, kinda tells me they are committed to them since they're willing to take the heat in advance.

I fear there will be more, and for same reasons. Again, everybody will get screwed because of "pvp balance".

Yeah but the healer nerf, at least for sorcs, was warrented. I could kill anything with the free force from consumption and endless dots on my enemies (thats how i killed sel-makor on voss)

In my opinion, which relates to sorcs (cant talk about pt/vangaurd cus i dont play one), this changes aren't going to affect PvE in a negative way. A free self heal is always nice too.

The change to overload has generated so much bogus qq. One guy was arguing that having to back up to get the npcs in front was taking too much away from dps... it takes maybe 2 GCDs!!!

sorry, have anice day

Frankly, I don't believe this to be true. This is why I loathe PvP and wish there were MMOs without it. I'm sick and tired of having my play negatively impacted because of it.

Maybe you should stick to games that don't cater to PvPers. PvP was actually advertised as a feature of this game.

I take it you have never actually tanked.. Besides, relying on someone else is never a good idea.. Like healers, tanks have enough to worry about.. Not to mention we can only do so much..

 

So here is a thought.. Roll a tank before you tell tanks what to do..

Hmmm level 50 salt vanguard that I clear ec with.

So I've rolled a tank.

Now are there times when my healer says he is getting attacked? Yes. So I pull that NPC towards me. If the healer is getting attacked by more than 1 NPC, the tank isn't doing his job.

Oh and if people aren't on commas, its easy enough for the tank to rotate his camera to where the healer is or to look at health bars to make sure every one is okay

Btw. I've cleared ec hm on a dps and a healer and story on my tank.

First off when I'm on my sage and a mob is attacking me from all sites I use force wave to knock them back, in 1.4 this will no longer be a 360degree effect, so effectively leaving the backstabbers right there (behind my back), not a good thing.

 

Turning would like to have a word with you

 

Second, reducing force stun from 30m to 10m makes it useless to stun ranged targets.

 

This is only slightly a nerf, and let's be honest here, it's a change that can easily be dealt with

 

To compensate for all of it now, I have to run and turn around all the time to have the same effect as before thus making me move more... But wait, while moving I can not heal as I have to be stationary to cast the spells... so effectively nerfing more than just 2 small things. Sages are most vulnerable already, this just makes them even more a clay pigeon...

 

Just my 2 cents

After reading your 2 cents, I must laugh. You can't be serious, you mean you might have to move your camera while you're doing solo play to use your knockback or run 20m (assuming you're at max distance all the time) for an interupt which will again only slightly hurt your solo play. Also, while you do have to be stationary for a couple of your heals, you have a couple you can do on the run along with the new self heal they are giving you. And let's talk about being vulnerable as a sorc/sage, in PvE you simply aren't. This game is far too easy so if you're having trouble playing a sorc while leveling you should rethink either the class you're playing or learn how to play it better cause none of these reasons are game breaking in the slightest.

You can't argue with these people... I admire that you try, but you simply can't. For them, changing the range from 30m to 10m is not a nerf. 120° instead of 360° is not a nerf. It's impossible to argue with these people.

I'll give you the stun is a nerf, but not much of one. Now the knockback isn't a nerf, it's a buff but you in turn have to aim it. Is it really that hard to understand?

It's gonna be marginally harder to punt the mobs off the cliff in EV just before you get to the 2nd boss.

 

Oh and there are 2 mobs in EC that ninja in behind healers on occasion. I reckon wipes on trash will go through the roof now.

Let's be honest here as well. There's far better people in your group to knock the trash off the side in EV, or you can kill them...

If you or anyone else is wiping on trash in EC then I am sorry for you. If your tanks can't see the mobs on your healers, or a DPS picking up the trash so they aren't beating up your healers or the healers on your team don't say "Hey, I got trash on me" so your tanks can get the mobs off then you should invest in a new raid group.

And make it pve only and a decent chunk of the population will feel the same way.

 

I'd like you to use the same argumentation when pve people moan about wanting new ops. "But not everyone has even done EV hm". That's besides the point innit.

 

And lastly, they have communicated that they've considered both sides and approach all changes with both in mind. It's just people like you intentionally ignoring the yellow post again moaning how pvp ruins pve in mmos and that devs are playing favorites with pvp of all things. Please...

 

The entitlement of the pve crowd is just mid boggling. So much so that we have a forum revolt and a lynch of all things pvp simply cos tweaks to a skill bumped some people slightly out of their comfort zones.

^ This.

It's just sad to see people crying about such small things that aren't that big of a deal, yet they completely ignore the stuff that is going to mess things up a great bit. For example, what they're doing to resolve is the opposite of what the entire community is asking for. And more stuns? NO! No one wants more stuns in this game. How about the fact where assassins/shadows can possibly reduce their force speed to a 5-10 second cooldown (depending on how they spec)? Haven't seen much on that and that is also something that is a huge issue. But no, we get people crying about a slight nerf to the range of a stun and a buff to a knockback or crying about legacy names no longer being unique.

It's just sad to see people crying about such small things that aren't that big of a deal, yet they completely ignore the stuff that is going to mess things up a great bit. For example, what they're doing to resolve is the opposite of what the entire community is asking for. And more stuns? NO! No one wants more stuns in this game. How about the fact where assassins/shadows can possibly reduce their force speed to a 5-10 second cooldown (depending on how they spec)? Haven't seen much on that and that is also something that is a huge issue. But no, we get people crying about a slight nerf to the range of a stun and a buff to a knockback or crying about legacy names no longer being unique.

Agreed. Just to be clear I capped an Assassin (dps) and a Shadow (tank). These changes would seemingly impact me, but to be honest they will not be a big deal. I'll make a very slight adjustment and it will have very little impact over all. This so called "nerf" is much less significant as compared to what was done to troopers earlier this year for example. In fact, there are much more serious issues that need to be addressed in terms of balance. Strange they chose this as something to announce now.

1.3 says "hi". Not only did the devs not listen to any feedback, they didn't even reply to tell us why we were being ignored. For example, I don't recall a single post that liked the change to Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow. The feedback on Guardian/Juggernaut changes was easily 95% negative, proven by hard numbers to be a massive nerf to a class/spec that didn't need nerfing, and you pushed it through anyway. I know other 1.3 changes were also unpopular, but the JG/SJ had the most posts and negative feedback, yet somehow received no dev replies...not even a "FU" post.

1.3 was a good patch for pvp. Was it 1.3 or 1.2 where juggs were going to get a 2-sec stun after charge but that got shot down by players because it added too much resolve to the target?

I talked to Senior Designer Austin Peckenpaugh and Senior PvP Designer Rob Hinkle about the concerns that developers allow changes made that primarily affect either PvP or PvE to negatively affect the other part of the game.

 

While it's true that some changes may be motivated by design requirements in one gameplay mode, we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes. We think it's natural for players to think of the game as two different sub-games and to dislike changes made for a sub-game they don't participate in, but that mindset couldn't be further from the case for us. We only ever look at the game as a complete package, and it's always our goal to deliver one cohesive and coherent gameplay experience. If, during our playtesting, we find that one experience suffers at the cost of another, we revisit our design goals and our options and reassess our approach.

 

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around. Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

I don't have to play these changes on the PTS to understand the impact on my own gameplay. The changes to Overload and Electrocute are going to have a severe negative impact on the way people play those classes.

I am a hybrid lightning/madness sorc, level 50, valor 85 so I'm not exactly new to the class. My spec is built around damage and utility, and these changes are going to be fundamental and negative.

Specifically, the change from 30 meters to 10 meters for Electrocute is bad from a utility viewpoint. I use Electrocute as an interrupt, to take pressure off teammates, and the like. Being ranged DPS means being able to perform most of my actions AT RANGE. All of the talents that I use are at a 30 meter range now. And yet with the proposed change for me to use a primary utility talent I will have to run in, cast, then run back to keep out of melee range - both in PVE and PVP. This is not only a poor design choice on the designer's part, but it absolutely confirms to me that although they may know mechanically how a class is designed, the designers have no idea stylistically how these classes are played. Fundamentally, I don't need an instant self heal. I have plenty of heal capability already, plus in both PVE specifically and PVP generally I run with a healer. The self heal is superfluous. And the idea I will get the self heal while removing a primary talent's usability is, frankly, indefensible.

The changes to Overload are also heavy handed. When a light armor character is getting mobbed in PVP you don't have the time to think, move, turn, Overload. You tend to react instantly, cast Overload (hopefully with Electric Bindings talented), then try to run away for a couple of seconds to get out of range. As it stands the proposed changes are making this character class even more of a pillar hugger. And frankly I don't care if I get a "moderate" self-heal every 30 seconds or so. I'm full aug'd war hero and I'll still get burned down before getting the chance to get through one rotation, much less last long enough to get my free "heal".

Again and again I read through the forums looking at the problems players have with their classes, some really intelligently thought out solutions, only to see in the end the developers and designers do something to add to a classes inability to not only survive, but participate. I've watched the decimation of the Bounty Hunter Class and the Operative Class already. Sorcerers already went through this process, to an extent, once - and now it is happening again. If the developers want to come out and categorically state that this is going to be a game for warriors, then fine. Just say so. There is certainly that feeling throughout the forum community.

I love this game. I've missed being on one day since it's launch. One. I can't stand seeing the path that it is taking where the developers and designers can't seem to get not only the technical, but stylistic, details right. I am certain that, in the end, like the healer nerf in 1.2 people will find ways around the limitations and shortcomings of poor design choices. My problem is, though, why spend the time sticking your finger in the dike over here while the levee is breaking over there.

Like I said, just my two cents worth. Hell, I might actually look forward to the day when everyone rolls a marauder and abandons everything else. Then it will become rocket arena. At least the playing field will finally be level at that point.

Been playing my merc lately and I've got a couple questions ....

Mercenaries and Commandos:

•Mercenaries and Commandos now have a 30-meter interrupt, Disabling Shot. This ability interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds. This ability can be trained at level 18.

•Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. The knockback previously caused by this skill generated enough Resolve that it was actually detrimental to the Mercenary/Commando’s ability to further escape the attacker.

•Tracer Lock/Charged Barrel: Now each stack additionally reduces the activation time of your next Healing Scan/Advanced Medical Probe by 20% per stack.

•Kolto Residue: Now additionally snares enemies struck by your Kolto Missile/Kolto Bomb by 50% for 3 seconds.

•New Bodyguard/Combat Medic skill, Peacekeeper/Frontline Medic: While protected by your own Kolto Shell/Trauma Probe, firing Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot at an enemy triggers your Kolto Shell/Trauma Probe to heal you on a separate 3-second rate limit.

My Merc BH is a DPS spec so all the healing 'adjustments' are completely worthless to me.

If I have to channel a heal the fight is already over and I've lost, because I couldn't heal a paper cut.

I'll get a new interrupt ability to replace the interrupt ability you're nerfing to ten meters.

What?

Really though, where do you expect me to put it? I already have more abilities then ability slots.

My real question though, are these changes coming with all new animations and descriptions?

A full body, rocket assisted, uppercut punch that roots the target?

Are you people on something?

Not only is this PvP changes having a negative effect on PvE gameplay, but gameplay in general.

Instead of enjoying playing the game, I'm going to be shaking my head and cursing you fools every time my rocket-punch violates basic laws of physics in a manner that is to much of a stretch for even the Star Wars universe.

It's just sad to see people crying about such small things that aren't that big of a deal, yet they completely ignore the stuff that is going to mess things up a great bit. For example, what they're doing to resolve is the opposite of what the entire community is asking for. And more stuns? NO! No one wants more stuns in this game. How about the fact where assassins/shadows can possibly reduce their force speed to a 5-10 second cooldown (depending on how they spec)? Haven't seen much on that and that is also something that is a huge issue. But no, we get people crying about a slight nerf to the range of a stun and a buff to a knockback or crying about legacy names no longer being unique.

Well there is a decently large post on the possibility of a assassin/shadow being able to obtain a 5 sec force speed but yes I agree they pick a pretty small change to complain about...and they say PvPers are the biggest cry babies but just wait until its patch time when they try and balance PvP just a little bit.

...

 

I'll get a new interrupt ability to replace the interrupt ability you're nerfing to ten meters.

 

...

Just had to comment on this one.

The 10 meter nerfed stun doesn't work on bosses. The new 30 meter interrupt does.

Have you ever wiped in False Emperor because the other party members missed an interrupt on Ultimate Power? Have you ever had to pull out yet another a repair droid on LR-5 because the tank missed an incinerate? Or how about that one time your group downed Toth and Zorn just to wipe on the handler because nobody remembered to interrupt his channeled attacks?

Granted, most group compositions include others who can interrupt. But I have 8 toons and the only one that can't interrupt is my Commando dps. I'm willing to trade some range on my 4-second stun for a 30m interrupt.

Well there is a decently large post on the possibility of a assassin/shadow being able to obtain a 5 sec force speed but yes I agree they pick a pretty small change to complain about...and they say PvPers are the biggest cry babies but just wait until its patch time when they try and balance PvP just a little bit.

Hense why I said "haven't seen much". I've read through that thread but you'd think there would be more than 1 thread in the PvP section talking about this lol. But you're right, wait till patch time (or if we're lucky enough to test on PTS) and watch it explode

Hense why I said "haven't seen much". I've read through that thread but you'd think there would be more than 1 thread in the PvP section talking about this lol. But you're right, wait till patch time (or if we're lucky enough to test on PTS) and watch it explode

Agreed, I will be sure to go to Costco and get my month supply of popcorn.

20 pages deep, the patch hasnt even hit the PTS, and... what? Do we think people will come to like it once they try it?

Being that MOST PEOPLE never go to the PTS, they will find out when this hits live, and... Im willing to be, are NOT going to be happy about it.

For the record - I love playing this game too, but it just seems that nobody at BW is taking feedback. Sure we get some reponses, but never seeing any real action on that feedback. (If so, please be more >>> SEE We fixed this... based on feedback - Like you did with Vendor on last World Event)

Sorry to burst your bubble but if your soloing as say a sorc or sage if you take like 2 steps backwards they will pool infront of you and bam!

I hate to say it, but this is only a nerf if you are a bad player.

When I solo it's fine and I use this less, it's when I'm with a group I've had to use more (w/o hosing AOE). I'm doing DPS thing and a mob is all over the healer next to me.. BOOM.. quick 360, shield him and I continue with an AOE in the same spot. (Yes - Adds are usually on the DPS, but sometimes you have to shift priorities)

My overall issues with this change:

1. Adding new functions to compensate - Need LESS not more
   
2. Change doesn't seem based on feedback or complaining, but out of the blue.
   
3. The "Take it or leave it" approach I feel will also disregard our input when on PTS.
   

They can simply disable the abilities in PVP and add new ones that work only in PVP. Or have the abilities change when you enter into PVP.

It's difficult for me to understand why Bioware hasn't grasped this simple concept yet in the MMO market.