Whom to guard is a little more complicated than choosing between a dps and a healer. The priority on guards should go to the dps who is more at risk of pulling at the start of a fight. This would usually be a powertech as they do the most damage in the first seconds of a fight, while they don't have any threat reduction abilities. Classes like snipers, assassins, and marauders who also do a lot of burst damage at the beginning of a fight at least have threat drops.

However, it is perfectly reasonable for a tank to guard a healer given that he knows for a fact none of the dps are a risk to pull. This is pretty uncommon at the beginning of a fight, but it would be fine, if not better to switch your guard on a healer some 30 sec into a fight when aggro is no longer a problem. In fights like TFB HM, it is strongly recommended to do so in phase 2. In fights where healers don't take much damage, it may not.

This is just wrong. My shadow is geared to maintain aggro against DG sentinels who go balls out from the get go of a fight, while still maintain the 30/65/60 mitigation stats that is expected of me. I haven't guarded a dps in quite some time, 50-50 laziness/lack of need. While not all tank classes are created equal where aggro generation is involved, but a blanket claim that tank aggro cannot keep up with DPS aggro is fallacy.

Sentinels have an amazing threat drop. They are quite easy to hold threat against. I'm talking about classes like the powertech. I doubt anyone could hold threat against a well-geared powertech going balls deep without a guard and without you using your taunts. Snipers are pretty damn bursty at the start of a fight too and countermeasures is crap.

I never ask for guard when I'm healing, as I would rather the tank guard a dps... It seems to limit the amount of time that I need to take my eyes off the tank and I can usually keep myself up along with everyone else... Usually...

When I'm tanking with my assassin, I'll throw a guard on whoever seems to be taking too much damage after the first couple of pulls, be it the dps or healer... If someone asks for a guard, I'll guard them, but, if I see someone else needs it during a fight, I'll switch...

Although, I did have a healer in one of the really early FPs tell me not to guard anyone because it put too much pressure on them to heal... Maybe guard isn't such a good idea at the lower levels..?

Although, I did have a healer in one of the really early FPs tell me not to guard anyone because it put too much pressure on them to heal... Maybe guard isn't such a good idea at the lower levels..?

Just sounds like they were a terribad healer, I was healing HM OP's and FP's on my operative with tion/crap gear mix and guard only made it easier cause the threat was back on the tank.

...

Although, I did have a healer in one of the really early FPs tell me not to guard anyone because it put too much pressure on them to heal... Maybe guard isn't such a good idea at the lower levels..?

It sounds like they're confusing the PvP damage transfer from the guarded player to the tank. Doesn't happen in PvE.

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On another note, when you're talking about complicated boss fights, guards can be very helpful, useful and important. And there is a lot of advice about guards that if followed, will help you master said fight.

When you're talking about trash fights, who gives a c**p really? If your group is halfway decent about kill orders, using CC when needed, not breaking CC when its up, and using their class abilities intelligently, it doesn't really matter if you use guard at all, let alone who gets it. Your group will do fine.

If you have an uncoordinated group with wonky kill sequences, CC breaking, not using taunts correctly, etc. etc. your group is going to be in trouble no matter who you guard.

The problem comes with people who don't understand how threat works, and thinks that guard is some magical solution. "I always guard the healer because it keeps him alive" or some other sillyness.

Guard whoever the heck you want during a trash pull. It will rarely make a difference. During a boss fight, guard the player that pulls aggro.

oy. Really?

It's standard to guard healers unless you know the DPS is going to pull off. It just makes his job easier. He doesn't have to hold back to avoid pulling threat if he's guarded, and even 5% less damage taken for him means he can heal others that much more.

Single-target boss fights, yes, you generally guard the DPS. Trash pulls, guard your healer. Many trash groups are NOT easily grouped up for all types of tanks to be able to hold aggro on everything. Case in point - Denova trash mobs. They're spread out all over the damn place.

As far as healers never pulling off - just the other day my Sorc healer pulled off the Guard Drouk from EC SM because of the amount of AOE healing needed there. Granted, it's the first time I've ever seen that happen. No, the tanks were not incompetent, nor was I massively geared over them.

It DOES happen. If you know a DPS is going to pull off, then by all means guard him. But with groups of 5-6 mobs or more, your healer's going to pull off first. Period.

Any fight with a lot of adds can benefit from guarding a healer.

That said, there is NO "always/never guard". Adapt, for crying out loud. Every situation is different unless all you do is run the exact same FP or Operation with the exact same group of people in the exact same gear, and even then there's RNG to factor in.

And yes - if I queue into a random HM FP as a healer with people I don't know, I'm going to ask for a guard. If I queue into one as a tank, I'm going to put my guard on the healer. All of this is assuming competent players, by the way - the DPS should be burning down weaker adds, the healer should not be overhealing, etc.

Anyone in my guild will do the same - you guard the healer unless you know someone else is going to pull off.

EDIT: Oh, and "All a tank has to do is hit a mob once and he'll stay off the healer" - first, that's BS. If the tank's taking hits from a large group of mobs, the healer's going to generate more threat healing him than a single basic attack, even from a tank, will generate.

Second, not all tanks have an easy way to hit every mob if they're not grouped up. Juggernaut tanks have exactly three ranged attacks - Charge, Saber Throw, and Force Choke. Two of those have a minimum range and one has a max range of 10 m. I haven't tried Shadow/Assassin tanking yet, and yes, Vanguards/Powertechs have a ridiculously easy time holding aggro on a group, but not every tank can do that.

@JimmyTheCannon, I wrote a long response but the website seems to have swallowed it.

Let me ask you this instead:

Since healer threat per second is heals per second - 50% - 15% / mobs present, what exactly is guard supposed to do?

If NOBODY is attacking a mob, the healer will pull aggro. If ANYONE is attacking that mob, they would out-class the tiny amount of healing threat generated.

You keep saying that, and yet I pull aggro - and don't tell me I'm overhealing, because I'm not.

I'd like to see definitive proof that healing threat is 50% base before being divided among all mobs. I've also seen people disagree on whether it's actually divided among all mobs or not. ::shrugs::

The guard makes a difference. I've SEEN it make a difference.

You keep saying that, and yet I pull aggro - and don't tell me I'm overhealing, because I'm not.

 

I'd like to see definitive proof that healing threat is 50% base before being divided among all mobs. I've also seen people disagree on whether it's actually divided among all mobs or not. ::shrugs::

 

The guard makes a difference. I've SEEN it make a difference.

You're just playing with bad tanks man.

Yes any tank -- including guards / juggs -- who are doing a minimalist AOE rotation will always generate more threat than a healer does.

You're just playing with bad tanks man.

 

Yes any tank -- including guards / juggs -- who are doing a minimalist AOE rotation will always generate more threat than a healer does.

When the mobs are grouped up in range of the AOE, yes.

When they're not, it's more difficult and a healer will pull off.

Again - I pulled off on my Sorc healer on the Guard Drouk in EC SM. With experienced tanks. Healers CAN pull off, without overhealing.

And again - unless you know that your DPS is going to pull off, why take the chance? Guard the healer.

When the mobs are grouped up in range of the AOE, yes.

 

When they're not, it's more difficult and a healer will pull off.

"When they're not", that is basically a situation where nobody is doing any damage on those mobs that are outside the range of the aoe. Then healing is the only thing generating threat.

That is not healer pulling off. That is healer being the only one generating threat on those mobs.

Again - I pulled off on my Sorc healer on the Guard Drouk in EC SM. With experienced tanks. Healers CAN pull off, without overhealing.

A guard drouk which stuns people AND resets it's aggro table. You did not pull off anything.

Getting aggro because your still ticking heal over time effects were the first thing to generate threat after a threat reset and everyone else was stunned and/or knocked back and unable to damage it to gain new threat is not pulling off.

Getting attacked by a mob that is programmed to ignore normal aggro mechanics and randomly change targets, also is not the same as pulling off.

"When they're not", that is basically a situation where nobody is doing any damage on those mobs that are outside the range of the aoe. Then healing is the only thing generating threat.

That is not healer pulling off. That is healer being the only one generating threat on those mobs.

I'll concede the point about the Guard Drouk, I hadn't considered the aggro reset.

But this is my point - with mob groups like that (of which there are many), the tank will have to split his attention between the ones in AOE range and the ones who are not. This is easy for a Powertech or Vanguard. I don't know about Assassins/Shadows. It's not so easy for a Juggernaut/Guardian. A good tank *will* be throwing attacks and taunts at those outside his normal range, but there's a limit to what can be done and splitting the focus like that decreases the amount of threat the tank has on those mobs.

With decreased threat, it's more likely that the healer will pull off. There's a difference between a Jug tank hitting a whole group with Smash + Crushing Blow + Sweeping Slash and a Jug tank having to bounce back and forth between doing that and running over to the other mob to choke him, running back, throwing the saber... etc. The healer, meanwhile, is generating the same amount of threat on all of them, and can easily pull off whichever one the tank has the least threat on.

In an optimal group where everybody knows what they're doing, nobody will pull off for long enough for it to matter (DPS might pull off, but probably only a second or two before they kill their target and will take minimal damage). Rarely is the situation optimal, and people make mistakes. The Guard is insurance for this, and that insurance is most important on the healer - if things go out of hand and people start dying, would you rather lose the DPS or the healer?

You're all talking like it can NEVER happen. People aren't perfect, stuff happens, and it's best to do what you can to minimize it.

Besides, on most trash pulls the DPS aren't starting on the tank's main focus anyways. They're attacking healers, weaks, normals, strongs, then elites and champs - and the guard's not going to make a difference THERE, either, as the DPS will still pull the weaker mob. By the time they get to the guy the tank has been building aggro on, he's so far ahead they won't pull off.

You keep saying that, and yet I pull aggro - and don't tell me I'm overhealing, because I'm not.

 

I'd like to see definitive proof that healing threat is 50% base before being divided among all mobs. I've also seen people disagree on whether it's actually divided among all mobs or not. ::shrugs::

 

The guard makes a difference. I've SEEN it make a difference.

The 50% base with the 15% skilled reduction can easily be seen by looking at combat logs. Just check out any raid on torparse.

Nobody is trying to say that guard will have no effect. It just has a minimal effect on healing threat, as it is so low already. Frankly on trash pulls you can guard the healer, guard the dps or guard NOBODY and any decent group will get through it. It's just not as important as kill order, CCs and correct use of taunts. If a group is having trouble and thinks that guarding the healer will solve something, that's the problem.

Study the combat logs. If you have a raid where you (as the healer) pulled, you can upload your log to torparse and check it out.

A.- Shadows/Assassins aren't the only tanks and B.- it's not a matter of "needing" DPS gear, it's a matter of optimizing stats in situations where extra endurance will do you no good.

As a Shadow tank, I have yet to find a situation where extra endurance/health does me no good. Since I'm not in the business of losing aggro, it helps to provide the healer with a bit more leeway.

On the guard topic: I always have it on the DPS except in the situations, operations boss fights, where it's useless to guard DPS so it gets cast on the healer. I always ask for guard when I'm on my sentinel. Bad pug healers will whine, bad pug tanks will guard the healer. When I do get guard, however, I go ******* crazy and try to steal aggro off the tank just for the fun of it. I do announce that beforehand and people respond nicely so we enter a contest of sorts. They do their best to keep aggro, I do my best do steal it. Keeps the flashpoint a bit more interesting.

When I dps I am offended when I'm guarded. Makes me think I don't know my class or role.

So a PT doesn't know his role when he pulls aggro?

Thanks to bw one of the top burst dps classes doesn't have an aggro reduce.

If the two dps are equally geared, I will guard the PT because of that fact.

As a Shadow tank, I have yet to find a situation where extra endurance/health does me no good. Since I'm not in the business of losing aggro, it helps to provide the healer with a bit more leeway.

When the extra health goes on cost of shield/absorb/defense (before you hit the wished caps, I don't know what they are for the assa/shadow) then it's doesn't help the healer.

[Except any competent tank will use DPS armorings/hilt/barrel and power crystals.

A.- Shadows/Assassins aren't the only tanks and B.- it's not a matter of "needing" DPS gear, it's a matter of optimizing stats in situations where extra endurance will do you no good. ]

Those are your words, you said ANY competent tank, Shadow is one of those.

When the extra health goes on cost of shield/absorb/defense (before you hit the wished caps, I don't know what they are for the assa/shadow) then it's doesn't help the healer.

He was talking about using DPS armoring/hilt/barrel and power crystal on a tank. A competent tank doesn't need any DPS gear, and I used the shadow as an example. About the "caps", they are just urban legend for the tanks. The point of gearing a tank is finding a good compromise between the different bosses but, most of the time, gearing for the hardest boss.

Every single boss is different in term of mitigation, and they all have a different BiS stats. Defense, Shield and Absorption are useless against Kephess the Undying but you need them against The Terror From Beyond.

He was talking about using DPS armoring/hilt/barrel and power crystal on a tank. A competent tank doesn't need any DPS gear, and I used the shadow as an example.

You said you didn't know a situation where it applies, I gave you one.

A competent jugg tank doesn't need dps gear but more dmg does make it easier to hold aggro (I hope you agree with me, that aoe tanking and aggro building don't belong to the strengths of the jugg-tank)

When the extra health goes on cost of shield/absorb/defense (before you hit the wished caps, I don't know what they are for the assa/shadow) then it's doesn't help the healer.

When and if.

They don't. Not on my tank at least.

When and if.

 

They don't. Not on my tank at least.

Advanced Immunity Enhancement 27

Advanced Bastion Enhancement 27

Advanced Steadfast Enhancement 27

I'm sorry, what?

These enhancements have different stats, so if you use the Steadfast you get more endurence but less defense than you would if you were using the Immunity.

So you can sometimes get extra hp but lose a bit of the other stats, which can be negative in some situations.

He was talking about using DPS armoring/hilt/barrel and power crystal on a tank. A competent tank doesn't need any DPS gear, and I used the shadow as an example. About the "caps", they are just urban legend for the tanks. The point of gearing a tank is finding a good compromise between the different bosses but, most of the time, gearing for the hardest boss.

 

Every single boss is different in term of mitigation, and they all have a different BiS stats. Defense, Shield and Absorption are useless against Kephess the Undying but you need them against The Terror From Beyond.

A tank without using those things requires using taunt in their rotation to hold aggro against top end DPS, a tank with them does not while requiring no additional healing but dealing more damage. If anyone believes the additional ~2k hp you gain from using high END armoring/hilt/barrel/crystals, then that is the way you should play. The difference in performance is so negligible that it borders on moot. I personally do not feel that the increase in TkT self-heals outweighs the freedom to hold back taunts and allow my dps to go crazy a little earlier, purely personal preference. Though the lower health (25.1k) would require me to adjust my gear if I ever chose to move into 16M content, those who stack more END would not.

Soft caps are not urban legend, just a point at which DR make it more advantageous to look elsewhere to invest points. The fact that some Ops Bosses favor M/R over F/T attacks (or vice versa) is really independent of the "point of gearing a tank" which also does not largely change based upon who the hardest boss is. Tanks realized since SOA that it can be advantageous to carry a set of DPS gear (even PVP gear) for bosses that are completely F/T, but this doesn't alter the philosophy of developing a tank. The variety of bosses doesn't serve to require any change in gear management but serves as an avenue of mastery of other cooldowns/abilities that cover for when gear fails.

With the amount of bad tanks in fp's, I would ask for a guard immediately as a dps too. Maybe he didn't realize you were geared and/or didn't see the title that confirms you are an experienced tank. I've seen plenty of tanks who seemed geared due to having some dread guard gear due to legacy smuggling. Heck, I have a healer at lvl 38 who is going to be full black hole/campaign once he reaches 50, but that doesn't make me a good healer.

this explains everything.

Tanks of any caliber need to understand that there's a bad ratio right now of bad tanks over good tanks. Tanks that don't notice this fall into the bad category, for 1 reason only. Situation awareness, and not the current situation at the time. It's the overall situation of the current tanks.

You may be the best tank in the game but not all dps or healers know this. You as the tank should know by now you cant assume everyone knows that your the best.

You cant claim you've teamed with everyone that's ever had a level 50 in your HM flashpoints. Its numerically not possible.

This happens all the time, but this one really made me laugh. Using my full Dread Guard Assasin tank with the Warstalker title. Right at the start of the FP a DPS in Columi and the healer both pop out "grd plz". Good thing people try and keep the flashpoints entertaining.

I had the exact opposite today. I was healing a random hm on my fully optimized DG-geared Scoundrel. The tank was in level40+ leveling gear and so was the shadow DPS he insisted on guarding. I kept ripping aggro off him purely with my heals, so I asked for a guard. He refused each time, stating that only the melee DPS should be guarded. Funny how it can go the other way around.

I had the exact opposite today. I was healing a random hm on my fully optimized DG-geared Scoundrel. The tank was in level40+ leveling gear and so was the shadow DPS he insisted on guarding. I kept ripping aggro off him purely with my heals, so I asked for a guard. He refused each time, stating that only the melee DPS should be guarded. Funny how it can go the other way around.

Ouch.

I don't get how someone misses the quest that leads to by the nose to the free Tionese gear. What did he say when you asked him about the gear?

Edit: Actually, now I wonder how you managed to not hit enrage on boss fights. Was the other dps carrying the fights? Or did you have to dps on the side as well?