As far as lowbies and midbies and incentive issues, sure, let's find something to make it worthwhile and beneficial while leveling, I'm just not sure earning UCs would be a fair way of doing so without consideration given to PVEers as well.

Fair or not it doesn't matter they won't be adding incentives for lowbies/mids PVP.

Well, at least the same. I know that gaining UCs on low/mid PvP would be nice but if its less, honestly, its not great of an incentive, really. At least the same but even then not sure if its really THAT good of an incentive to do it.

They would need more than just UCs as an incentive.

Something like incorporating specific lowbies/Mids missions for conquest and higher med/stim pack rewards so you don’t have to buy them all the time. They could even drop CXP tokens for when you get to lvl 70.

While I understand the reasoning behind the suggestion and it makes perfect sense form a PVP POV, before when you could earn PVP coms even before cap that you could use at cap to get PVP gear, as things stand now it's BIS gear which is shared by both PVE and PVP. Letting PVPers earn towards end game BIS gear before cap, would be unfair to PVEers as they's have no way of earning towards end game gear until they reached end game, in effect, it would allow PVPing to set them up for PVE gear as well.

 

Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I don't think people should be able to work towards end game gear before reaching end game unless PVEers could do so as well. Fair is fair. But, if I'm being honest, I don't think anyone should be able to do it at all, if you make end game gear waiting for you the second you reach end game, it makes alot of end game pointless because you don't need anything, so some players would have no incentive to do end game, end game would be just that, the end of the game in any meaningful way.

 

PVPers don't really need carrots on the end of sticks, that's a fair point to be sure, but PVEers do.

 

I personally care about both sides of the game, even no I'm no longer a Raider, I just can't not take that side of things into consideration as well. I do totally get the reasoning behind your suggestion and I'm not arguing it's legitimacy from a PVP POV, if it's PVP gear. BIS gear is a different matter tho.

 

I know a lot of my opinions seem to be out of sync with alot of other PVPers, but I'm not trying to put roadblocks in their way, if that's how it seems. - I'll back whatever the consensus of PVPers feel is best, even if I don't necessarily agree with it on a personal level.

 

This whole situation of the shared BIS gear makes it very problematic to be considerate of both modes of play and that's why despite my love of gearing, and not having any real personal preference, I do feel that PVP gear coming back is vital to the health and prosperity of PVPers and PVP in general. The Raider/PVPer mind sets just aren't compatible.

 

As far as lowbies and midbies and incentive issues, sure, let's find something to make it worthwhile and beneficial while leveling, I'm just not sure earning UCs would be a fair way of doing so without consideration given to PVEers as well.

They could accommodate pve by adding a small drop of UCs for doing veteran/master flash points through group finder.

They could accommodate pve by adding a small drop of UCs for doing veteran/master flash points through group finder.

Right, it's not complicated.

Thing is, as I said already they have zero concerns about lowbies/mids PVP. None at all. Hoping it is improved is a pipe dream.

Right, it's not complicated.

 

Thing is, as I said already they have zero concerns about lowbies/mids PVP. None at all. Hoping it is improved is a pipe dream.

We’ve only been talking about it for 12-18 months.

How many ideas does the community have to throw at them?

How many threads and posts do we all need to make?

Most of the pvpers I talk to, want it.

It would help the quality of pvp at lvl 70

It would encourage people to learn other classes

It would give people something to do as they lvl instead of grinding the story for the 50th time or heroics for the millionth

There are only positives that can come out of Bioware making lowbies and Mids relevant again.

What frustrates the hell out of me is they won’t even acknowledge the threads, posts, ideas or even the topic.

They are happy to let the game die and I hate them for that because I love this game and it’s a travesty what they continue to do to destroy it or not do to fix it.

Fair or not it doesn't matter they won't be adding incentives for lowbies/mids PVP.

Well that's not right, they definitely should add something to add incentives for lowbies/mids. There are people who like to level doing PVP and not having enough people to keep those quece times for them reasonable hurts that segment of the population who uses it for those purposes or just because they like to do some pvping as well as the story line.

If you are going to include lowbies/midbies at all, that they should be viable, otherwise what's the point of having them at all if people who like them can't really get to enjoy them enough even though it is part of the game.

Taking a heads up from Kendra, maybe awarding a small amount of UCs could work and because it was a small amount it won't really add up to all that that much in the end, maybe just enough so that they could grab one or two peices of gear from it once they reach cap. I wouldn't think that was a big deal and it still serves as some added incentive.

But if not that, than something, whether that's decos, or maybe so special adaptive gear that you can't get any other way than by doing some lowbies/midbies, or something like that. I'm sure they could come up with something, and they really should. If it makes people happier why not add some extra incentive for a play area that could benefit from more players being in that mix.

They could accommodate pve by adding a small drop of UCs for doing veteran/master flash points through group finder.

Than it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I actually also like some of your ideas, some daily mission incentives, conquest, there are things that they could add that wouldn't be a big deal in the scope of things but would still serve as some useful gain. Maybe even add some companion gifts as incentive as if you are leveling than you are definately trying to build influence with your companions and that could just be another thing they could add that would help them along some. Even like a +500 influence gift from a daily or something. Raising influence on companions takes forever and a day especially when you are going to be using them for crew skills a lot you definitely benefit greatly from high influence companions on a daily basis if your into crew skill crap. Those bonus to crew skills higher influence companions often can make a big difference. How easy would that be to add some companion gifts to the daily or something.

They should do something for you guys.

Well that's not right, they definitely should add something to add incentives for lowbies/mids. There are people who like to level doing PVP and not having enough people to keep those quece times for them reasonable hurts that segment of the population who uses it for those purposes or just because they like to do some pvping as well as the story line.

The challenge here, like is so often the case where humans are concerned.... they tried it.. and found that the players simply gamed the system in lowbie PvP such that they could use low level PvP play as a method to hoard and then quickly and easily gear fresh 70s in great gear immediately upon level cap. Lowbie PvP did not get played for the sake of lowbie PvP by most players, but rather farmed for currency to easily equip a PvP playing character in good gear immediately upon capping level.

The fact that they are not repeating this is a pretty clear indicator that the studio did not agree with what players were doing.. and will go another direction.

This is always the challenge for as studio.. they put something positive in game for players and players quickly find ways to game it in a manner the studio did not intend and did not want. The players share some of the blame here, but the studio absolutely needs to be better at predicting and interdicting the very natural human behavior of finding convenient loopholes in anything and everything. If I were the producer, I would have a small team of 3-4 clever people whose sole purpose was to try to game and exploit anything put into the game during pre-patch testing. That said.. worst case testing has never been this studios strong suit in the 7 years since launch.

The challenge here, like is so often the case where humans are concerned.... they tried it.. and found that the players simply gamed the system in lowbie PvP such that they could use low level PvP play as a method to hoard and then quickly and easily gear fresh 70s in great gear immediately upon level cap. Lowbie PvP did not get played for the sake of lowbie PvP by most players, but rather farmed for currency to easily equip a PvP playing character in good gear immediately upon capping level.

 

The fact that they are not repeating this is a pretty clear indicator that the studio did not agree with what players were doing.. and will go another direction.

 

This is always the challenge for as studio.. they put something positive in game for players and players quickly find ways to game it in a manner the studio did not intend and did not want. The players share some of the blame here, but the studio absolutely needs to be better at predicting and interdicting the very natural human behavior of finding convenient loopholes in anything and everything. If I were the producer, I would have a small team of 3-4 clever people whose sole purpose was to try to game and exploit anything put into the game during pre-patch testing. That said.. worst case testing has never been this studios strong suit in the 7 years since launch.

Why is this is a bad thing, what is fundamentally wrong with having a full set of pvp gear at max level that you earned while leveling; for many pvpers BIS is a starting point, not an endpoint.

The studio might not have liked it, or it might have simply been a victim of the over-arching design changes implemented in 5.0. (it certainly did not feel like had fully thought out Galactic Command when it was introduced in 5.0...).

You're making a lot of assumptions and are implying that players were somehow abusing the system, when in fact during late 3.x and 4.x the studio implemented multiple changes that were designed to promote players having BIS gear in pvp...

Why is this is a bad thing, what is fundamentally wrong with having a full set of pvp gear at max level that you earned while leveling; for many pvpers BIS is a starting point, not an endpoint.

 

The studio might not have liked it, or it might have simply been a victim of the over-arching design changes implemented in 5.0. (it certainly did not feel like had fully thought out Galactic Command when it was introduced in 5.0...).

 

You're making a lot of assumptions and are implying that players were somehow abusing the system, when in fact during late 3.x and 4.x the studio implemented multiple changes that were designed to promote players having BIS gear in pvp...

+1 i agree

The challenge here, like is so often the case where humans are concerned.... they tried it.. and found that the players simply gamed the system in lowbie PvP such that they could use low level PvP play as a method to hoard and then quickly and easily gear fresh 70s in great gear immediately upon level cap. Lowbie PvP did not get played for the sake of lowbie PvP by most players, but rather farmed for currency to easily equip a PvP playing character in good gear immediately upon capping level.

 

The fact that they are not repeating this is a pretty clear indicator that the studio did not agree with what players were doing.. and will go another direction.

 

This is always the challenge for as studio.. they put something positive in game for players and players quickly find ways to game it in a manner the studio did not intend and did not want. The players share some of the blame here, but the studio absolutely needs to be better at predicting and interdicting the very natural human behavior of finding convenient loopholes in anything and everything. If I were the producer, I would have a small team of 3-4 clever people whose sole purpose was to try to game and exploit anything put into the game during pre-patch testing. That said.. worst case testing has never been this studios strong suit in the 7 years since launch.

Pvpers Gamed the system... lmao... nobody gamed the system.... that is how it was designed... lol

Maybe if you actually played pvp, you would know the difference... gamed the system.... lol ..... I’ve not heard something this funny in the pvp forums for a long time... thanks for the laugh.

Pvpers Gamed the system... lmao... nobody gamed the system.... that is how it was designed... lol

Maybe if you actually played pvp, you would know the difference... gamed the system.... lol ..... I’ve not heard something this funny in the pvp forums for a long time... thanks for the laugh.

I think he's referring to the weapon return trick where you just banked a bunch of pvp weapons and refunded them before the time limit went out. I used to do this back in the day before 4.x came out. His argument is kind of silly though since in 4.x they opened it up and allowed us to stockpile warzone comes with legacy tokens and that system was perfect. There was no reason to change from that. Removing that system along with pvp gear was a huge mistake. I miss leveling through lowbie pvp.

I think he's referring to the weapon return trick where you just banked a bunch of pvp weapons and refunded them before the time limit went out. I used to do this back in the day before 4.x came out. His argument is kind of silly though since in 4.x they opened it up and allowed us to stockpile warzone comes with legacy tokens and that system was perfect. There was no reason to change from that. Removing that system along with pvp gear was a huge mistake. I miss leveling through lowbie pvp.

Nah, if he knew that he would have said it.

The problem is he doesn’t understand the old gearing system because he’s never pvped and thinks we gamed the system because would could use Comms acquired in lowbies and Mids to buy ranked gear when we hit lvl 65.

Nah, if he knew that he would have said it.

 

The problem is he doesn’t understand the old gearing system because he’s never pvped and thinks we gamed the system because would could use Comms acquired in lowbies and Mids to buy ranked gear when we hit lvl 65.

He did say it...Abusing the refund system to basically bank wz comms by buying pvp weapons while leveling in lowbies pvp was definitely gaming the system to bypass the old 2k cap before it was raised sometime in 3.x

He did say it...Abusing the refund system to basically bank wz comms by buying pvp weapons while leveling in lowbies pvp was definitely gaming the system to bypass the old 2k cap before it was raised sometime in 3.x

In in response to this the developers raised the cap and introduced legacy warzone comms; I think it's safe to say that they embraced the concept.

He did say it...Abusing the refund system to basically bank wz comms by buying pvp weapons while leveling in lowbies pvp was definitely gaming the system to bypass the old 2k cap before it was raised sometime in 3.x

No, he didn’t say anything about the weapons. I believe he meant pvpers only played lowbies pvp so they could get Comms for lvl 65 gear.

Lowbie PvP did not get played for the sake of lowbie PvP by most players, but rather farmed for currency to easily equip a PvP playing character in good gear immediately upon capping level.

We are talking 4 years ago. No one was gaming the system in 3.x and definitely not in 4.x when Bioware even added tokens so you could store extra Comms and send them to Alts without using legacy gear.

No, he didn’t say anything about the weapons. I believe he meant pvpers only played lowbies pvp so they could get Comms for lvl 65 gear.

 

We are talking 4 years ago. No one was gaming the system in 3.x and definitely not in 4.x when Bioware even added tokens so you could store extra Comms and send them to Alts without using legacy gear.

You right. When 3.0-4.0 was active, the gearing system was designed for alts and gearing was highly fluid it was quite an innovative system. No surprise because it took them years to get to that point.

For some reason some people (and BW apparently) think a design goal of a heavy gear grind is good for the game when the evidence shows clearly the game was most populated when alts were encouraged and gearing was not super grindy.

I can only deduce the design goal is to send players off the game as fast as possible because none of the proposed changes appeal the majority as the majority are speaking with what MMOs they log into nowadays and the constant merging/killing of servers indicates MMO gamers are not playing SWTOR.

Seriously, it's a beautiful game and has a lot of fun parts to it. I just don't think decisions are being made that are for the benefit of the game itself anymore.

You right. When 3.0-4.0 was active, the gearing system was designed for alts and gearing was highly fluid it was quite an innovative system. No surprise because it took them years to get to that point.

 

For some reason some people (and BW apparently) think a design goal of a heavy gear grind is good for the game when the evidence shows clearly the game was most populated when alts were encouraged and gearing was not super grindy.

 

I can only deduce the design goal is to send players off the game as fast as possible because none of the proposed changes appeal the majority as the majority are speaking with what MMOs they log into nowadays and the constant merging/killing of servers indicates MMO gamers are not playing SWTOR.

 

Seriously, it's a beautiful game and has a lot of fun parts to it. I just don't think decisions are being made that are for the benefit of the game itself anymore.

Around 3.x, Bioware said they recognised that gearing up for pvp was too slow and wanted pvp people to gear as fast as possible. Their words, not ours,

They then made changes to the system that allowed you to gear up in 1-2 weeks even if you hadn’t collected any Comms in lowbies pvp.

Then they go and completely reverse that whole system and drive a majority of the pvp population away from the game.

Its completely idiotic to develop a system over 3 years through trial and error, get it completely right and perfect and 3 months later throw out that perfected system for one that’s terrible and drives players away,

It boggles the mind at what sort of logic that is or what they are thinking in that office. The old system is still the best system they’ve ever had in this game. The only people who didn’t like it were the raiders coming into pvp with their epic raid gear (which always had better stats) and getting owned by people in pvp gear who had expertise.

Expertise wasn’t hard to work out. But Bioware could have made it easy for those pve guys to understand.

1. Have a tutorial pop up explaining exactly how it works.

2. Highlight pve gear over the Bolster cap. ie highlight in red those pve pieces over 190.

3. Have an auto gear check reminder before the match starts if the wrong gear is equipped.

All the arguments I hear from pve guys complaining about 2 sets of gear make me laugh so hard. You could gear for pvp in 2 weeks. Compared to the gear grind now that takes months and months.

If I had to guess, those pve guys back then complained so loud because they felt they should be owning pvpers because they had better gear they had spent time grinding out in pve. So Bioware accommodated them. Now we have the same pve gear grinders telling everyone you don’t need the best gear in pvp, but they are more than happy to use it against pvpers to get an advantage.

The more I think about it, the more it stinks of some pve influencers or Bioware staff feeling they should have a gear advantage and the Devs bowing to their wishes over the actual pvpers who play pvp.

Pve raiders have always had the Devs ear over pvpers. If the pve guys want it, they get priority. Now we have exactly the same thing about to happen again. The pve raiders will have the gearing advantage to go into pvp and have an advantage.

Kieth says he’s a pvper, but I also know for a fact he is a NiM raider in a progression guild. So it begs the question, does Keith pvp much and does he even play competitively in pvp. If not, is that why we keep seeing the quality of ranked and regs being dimished through bad policies so that he has an easier time.

If he was a real pvper :

He would see what is happening in pvp.

He would understand we don’t need a gear grind or gear advantages

He would see that lack of lowbies participation is eroding player skills

He would see the majority of good pvpers leaving the game in disgust

He would see that class balance is a joke

He would the DESYNC problem

He would see the bugs

He would see the cheating

He would see how bad the matchmaking system is

He would see.... etc etc etc.

It’s apparent he’s not a real pvper because that list of problems isn’t hard to fix, but we’ve had them for the whole time Kieths been in charge and he keeps making them worse.

He’s a NiM Raider, first and foremost, not a pvper. It’s why this new gearing system is totally in favour of raiders and their love of gear grinding.

We need the old system of pvp gear back.