As for these assassins you speak of, they were also created by Revan. Just ask Atton Rand.

DARTH REVAN!

We aren't talking about Darth Revan. We are talking about Jedi Revan, Jedi Revan has no idea who these assassins are, or what makes them so good at what they do. They were created by Darth Revan, but Jedi Revan is not Darth Revan.

They may be the same person, but Jedi Revan does not know what Darth Revan does.

The ships provided by the Star Forge were superior to the Republics ships in ship-to-ship combat.

 

The ships themselves are superior to the Hammerhead-class vessels that make up the Republic fleet. IIRC the rules state that technology is universal. But the ships in Traya's fleet don't use super special advanced tech. They are just built superior. More guns, heavier armor, larger ships. They are just made superior.

Okay. Good point. Here's an honest question: Who ever said the ships made by the Star Forge were better then hammerheads?

That's just how you "feel".

 

This is a cannonical point that shuts down a major part of Traya's Fleet forces. Your opinion is irrelevant.

Lol someone's feeling hurt.

We're dealing with a technicality of the Kaggath that should be settled by the OP. It shuts down one ship, but it is a ship, not Nihilus' power. I contest the ship should be there because it is part of Kreia's power base, not a super-weapon OR a prominent figure, it is equipment.

But this is a very silly discussion anyways given the fact that in order for it to be a fair fight, Darth Traya has to fight with both arms tied behind her back. Even then it's definitely not far-fetched for Traya to win.

Okay. Good point. Here's an honest question: Who ever said the ships made by the Star Forge were better then hammerheads?

Taken from the Interdictor-class cruiser wiki page:

Despite the timespan between designs, the Interdictor-class cruiser was comparable in power to an Imperial Victory II-class Star Destroyer with all the advantages of the Immobilizer 418 cruiser and served a role similar to that of the more modern Star Destroyer designs

The Interdictor ship was one of the most common vessels in the Sith Empire.

Edit: The ship was a prototype made by the Republic, but I do remember seeing those ships around the Star Forge in KOTOR so I think the Star Forge made some.

Edit #2: The majority of ships in Revan's Empire were stolen Republic vessels, but the Star Forge began to fill these out. His ships included ships like the Ravager, Interdictor-class vessels and others. The Star Forge began to fill the rest of his forces with its own creations. Traya had access to the remains of Revan's Sith Empire. This included some of these ships.

DARTH REVAN!

 

We aren't talking about Darth Revan. We are talking about Jedi Revan, Jedi Revan has no idea who these assassins are, or what makes them so good at what they do. They were created by Darth Revan, but Jedi Revan is not Darth Revan.

 

They may be the same person, but Jedi Revan does not know what Darth Revan does.

Jedi Knight Revan becomes Darth Revan, He certainly does have "an idea" of how to make assassins. The idea is somewhere in his noggin. Your logic says that before Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, he couldn't have invented it. What? That doesn't make any sense. Thomas Edison always had the ability to create the light bulb. Same goes for Revan. If the situation calls for it, then he possesses the ability to create assassins.

Lol someone's feeling hurt.

 

We're dealing with a technicality of the Kaggath that should be settled by the OP. It shuts down one ship, but it is a ship, not Nihilus' power. I contest the ship should be there because it is part of Kreia's power base, not a super-weapon OR a prominent figure, it is equipment.

 

But this is a very silly discussion anyways given the fact that in order for it to be a fair fight, Darth Traya has to fight with both arms tied behind her back. Even then it's definitely not far-fetched for Traya to win.

THATS the point of the Kaggath. It ISNT just equipment. Its POWERED by Nihilus to be able to fly, It CAN be classed as a super-weapon. WITHOUT Nihilius its a wreckage of a ship in the sky. The only feelings hurt here are yous because you cant use your precious ship.

Edit: Last time.

Jedi Knight Revan becomes Darth Revan, He certainly does have "an idea" of how to make assassins. The idea is somewhere in his noggin. Your logic says that before Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, he couldn't have invented it. What? That doesn't make any sense. Thomas Edison always had the ability to create the light bulb. Same goes for Revan. If the situation calls for it, then he possesses the ability to create assassins.

He gained the knowledge from the Sith. Jedi Revan does not have this knowledge. He gains it from the Sith. Thomas Edison experimented to create the lightbulb.

THATS the point of the Kaggath. It ISNT just equipment. Its POWERED by Nihilus to be able to fly, It CAN be classed as a super-weapon. WITHOUT Nihilius its a wreckage of a ship in the sky. The only feelings hurt here are yous because you cant use your precious ship.

 

Edit: Last time.

Lol read through my posts, the Ravager is hardly what will win the fight, I'm just sticking up for what is fair AND to not invalidate a series of other posters' musings about hypothetical fights within the Kaggath.

I can understand you guys thinking that Traya's assassins would end up winning the game for her, but recently you've implied that Traya could also win in open warfare. The latter isn't a possiblity.

While Traya may have better ships, Revan has MANY more + he's a better general then Traya is + he's fueled by the Republic which is gonna give Revan huge resource advantages.

As I've said before, Traya is gonna have to rely on her assassins, who can make a difference, but on their own they won't change the tide of the war.

I can understand you guys thinking that Traya's assassins would end up winning the game for her, but recently you've implied that Traya could also win in open warfare. The latter isn't a possiblity.

 

While Traya may have better ships, Revan has MANY more + he's a better general then Traya is + he's fueled by the Republic which is gonna give Revan huge resource advantages.

 

As I've said before, Traya is gonna have to rely on her assassins, who can make a difference, but on their own they won't change the tide of the war.

Actually, Traya would do fairly well in open warfare. Maybe not outright battles, but that's not the MO of the Triumvirate. The Triumvirate operated in stealth and deception, and rarely fought in open battles. Traya could easily maneuver her forces to strike from the shadows. Revan would be able to win an outright war, but Traya's forces would not easily be lured into such scenarios.

And Revan only has a third of the Republic ships. That was his fleet during the Mandalorian Wars.

Edit: Now this is key. In order to gain true victory, Revan has to defeat Traya's fleet. He has the numbers, but as it stands, Traya has the better ships. He has to lure them into a trap, a battle that they can't win. Entirely possible against someone that isn't Traya, but she has the ability to see the future if she remains on Malachor. She could easily counter Revan's efforts.

DARTH REVAN!

 

We aren't talking about Darth Revan. We are talking about Jedi Revan, Jedi Revan has no idea who these assassins are, or what makes them so good at what they do. They were created by Darth Revan, but Jedi Revan is not Darth Revan.

 

They may be the same person, but Jedi Revan does not know what Darth Revan does.

This is one of the key points that is hanging me up on this thread. If we were talking about Darth Revan, I don't think this would be close. But I guess I'm still a bit confused. It seems Traya has a built-in advantage. She knows of Revan and his powers and he presumably does not know of her as Darth Traya since he did not train with her as Darth Traya until after he fell. He wouldn't even know she is based on Malachor V. If they are engaging in a Kaggath, don't we at least have to assume that Revan knows who she is and her basic story, i.e. what he is up against? If not, then I think Traya has a ridiculous advantage.

That said, I think people are also overestimating Traya's power base. Her primary strength is deception, and a Kaggath takes much of that strength away. You can't slowly plot a Kaggath. You have to read and react on the fly. She can't hide as a friend when she is really a foe. Her loyalties are clear if they are engaged in such a battle. I don't know how many assassins she has, but I don't see how they could defeat Revan's army. A handful of Mandalorians handle the Assassins pretty well on Dxun, and Revan's soldiers are presumably as capable as they are. Revan wouldn't even have to go to the Trayus Academy. He could just overwhelm it with an army. The only reason Trayus Academy wasn't destroyed by the Republic is that no one knew it was there. If we assume that Revan knows it is there, an invasion would be pretty straightforward.

If you look at what she did in KOTOR II, it was all done from the shadows. Her true intentions are hidden. That's not possible in a Kaggath. If the enemy knows she is coming, I don't think she is much of a threat.

Actually, Traya would do fairly well in open warfare. Maybe not outright battles, but that's not the MO of the Triumvirate. The Triumvirate operated in stealth and deception, and rarely fought in open battles. Traya could easily maneuver her forces to strike from the shadows. Revan would be able to win an outright war, but Traya's forces would not easily be lured into such scenarios.

 

And Revan only has a third of the Republic ships. That was his fleet during the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Edit: Now this is key. In order to gain true victory, Revan has to defeat Traya's fleet. He has the numbers, but as it stands, Traya has the better ships. He has to lure them into a trap, a battle that they can't win. Entirely possible against someone that isn't Traya, but she has the ability to see the future if she remains on Malachor. She could easily counter Revan's efforts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but farsight doesn't work that way. Sideous was better at it than anyone, yet he could not use it to find rebel bases or fleets or predict their tactics.

Any advantage Traya would have in better ships would seemingly be nullified by the sheer number of ships at Revan's disposal. The Republic ships were certainly capable of fighting with the Interdictors even if they weren't quite as good. We see this at the end of KOTOR. If the numbers advantage is as great as it would appear, I don't see how a handful of Interdictors is going to do much of anything against a fleet the size of Revan's.

Kaggath is open warfare. This isn't an insurgency. In a Kaggath, you know who your enemy is. Striking from the shadows is fine if you are a small force slowly trying to topple a large entity like the Republic when they don't know who you are or that you even exist. It doesn't work so well when war is declared. To win a war, you have to win battles and occupy territory.

To me, the only way Traya wins is if she has the advantage of being from the future so that Revan doesn't know who she is, where she operates from or what her forces are like, which seems a pretty strange way to set the rules for a Kaggath.

Revan would probably win, so Traya had steal assassins big deal, so did the Mandalorians, and Revan clobbered them.

Revan has the strength in numbers from the fleet, plus his people were fighting Mandalorians, so they aren't exactly a bunch of newbies. I think Darth Traya is in serious trouble.

Which Revan are we talking about? Revan as we know it in the Kotor? or Revan reborn?... Ahh.... forget it, Revan would win easily... Revan a military genius and Kreia not (and don't read what aurbere say... no matter who are against Revan... Revan would loose always... Revan vs Wampa? " Aurbere: Wampa because I hate Revan and because how there you think otherwise?!" It is obvious that in the Kotor area Revan is the strongest, and in the ToR area...well... we will see if he is not dead)

Btw I its meaningless which Revan because KotoR Jedi Revan memories are not the same as before, but his personality is! (when u have to find the kashyyk star map and Darth Revan built a Rakata computer for security reasons there... and u have to answere military questions I hope u all remember u have to answere as Darth Revan would [i know that u have other options but that's because we are talking about a Bioware game] or when u have to beat Dark Bastila, she said that too) and if we are talking about Revan Reborn... then it's absolutely Revan's win.

Revan wins.

Keria has no charisma and cannot motivate people. She says this her self "I speak with a passion that does not move others".

While that may not seem like much if you can't inspire loyalty in those underneath you then they will not fight for you, or at least as well as they can.

Keria does not know war. She knows manipulate and tricks, but not a knock down drag out fight.

She has like 6 ships and a few hundred, maybe a thousand being generous, Assassins. Her best, and really only, option is a guerilla style conflict, like the end of the second Boer War (1899-1902). It may take years but eventually Revan will run her down and force her to fight.

She will need fuel and food eventually, also the assassins are not perfect, the Mandos spotted them so it is likely others can as well.

Revan wins.

 

Keria has no charisma and cannot motivate people. She says this her self "I speak with a passion that does not move others".

 

While that may not seem like much if you can't inspire loyalty in those underneath you then they will not fight for you, or at least as well as they can.

 

Keria does not know war. She knows manipulate and tricks, but not a knock down drag out fight.

 

She has like 6 ships and a few hundred, maybe a thousand being generous, Assassins. Her best, and really only, option is a guerilla style conflict, like the end of the second Boer War (1899-1902). It may take years but eventually Revan will run her down and force her to fight.

 

She will need fuel and food eventually, also the assassins are not perfect, the Mandos spotted them so it is likely others can as well.

Excellent point. However I think Traya's fleet is slightly more numerous then you give her credit.

I really like this argument.

Mandos battled Assassins and held their own (KOTOR 2)

Republic Troops > Mandos (Mandalorian War)

Republic Troops are more than a match for assassins

It's good to see this hasn't erupted into a flame war. Let's keep it that way, and it doesn't matter is Aurbere is biased or not, if his points are valid (which they are) there is no problem.

I have a scenario I'd like to discuss, but more on that later.

Let's make this the only thread about Revan that didn't start a flame war. If this is achieved everyone will receive a free virtual cookie, and an internet commendation.

It's good to see this hasn't erupted into a flame war. Let's keep it that way, and it doesn't matter is Aurbere is biased or not, if his points are valid (which they are) there is no problem.

 

I have a scenario I'd like to discuss, but more on that later.

 

Let's make this the only thread about Revan that didn't start a flame war. If this is achieved everyone will receive a free virtual cookie, and an internet commendation.

Ooooh I likes virtual cookies!

Alright. So the way I see it, we've made it clear that Traya can't win in open warfare. If you disagree with this (then you're wrong ), then please bear with me for argument's sake.

So, the best thing Traya can do is sit on Malachor V and send in her assassins to do some damage. This is without a doubt the most likely course of action, so let's focus on it.

1. Assassins are great for eroding forces and causing chaos among ranks, and, obviously, assassination. But they're not gonna be able to get at Revan. The problem is that the assassins won't be very useful in a quick war. This further indicates how long the war will be (assuming Traya does well). But how affective will these assassins be against Revan's men? They'll do some damage - but not enough to bring Revan's army to Traya's strength. This is due to Revan's leadership and charisma. He wouldn't allow his ranks to get chaotic. I'm certain he could calm his men and restore bravery in them.

2. Also: in a prolonged war, the value of resources increases exponentially. This means that Revan's advantage here gets even greater. So no matter how many soldiers Traya's assassins can take out, those men will be replaced by new ones and new ships.

3. Furthermore: In this scenario (the only one in which assassins are affective) Revan will have PLENTY of time to not only adapt to the assassins, and perhaps create assassins of his own. The longer the assassins are around, the less affective they are.

So in a prolonged war, Revan wins.

The only way the war would be short is if Traya engaged Revan in a legit battle. Revan wins that too.

I'm sorry but Traya just doesn't have a likely victory here at all.

I really like this argument.

 

Mandos battled Assassins and held their own (KOTOR 2)

 

Republic Troops > Mandos (Mandalorian War)

 

Republic Troops are more than a match for assassins

May I make an amendement -

Mandlorians > Republic soldiers

Jedi > Mandalorians

It was the Jedi not the republic that one the mandalorian wars. Sith assassins wiped out all of the republic soldiers on the Harbinger. As for Mandalorians trumping assassins, we have to consider that those were elite neo.crusaders and that the only one with Meetra's and Kreia's help.

May I make an amendement -

 

Mandlorians > Republic soldiers

 

Jedi > Mandalorians

 

It was the Jedi not the republic that one the mandalorian wars. Sith assassins wiped out all of the republic soldiers on the Harbinger. As for Mandalorians trumping assassins, we have to consider that those were elite neo.crusaders and that the only one with Meetra's and Kreia's help.

You are correct. However this is lacking in a way...

Republic soldiers under Revan's command > Republic soldiers

Some quick thoughts about the Ravager:

1) Does Traya gain the Ravager even though she can't have Nihilius? The Ravager, while powerful for its time, is no superweapon. Futhermore, can she have one of her Sith Lords hold the ship together to make it useable?

2) Since the Ravager was originally part of Revan's fleet, does he have it as well (and in working condition)?

I doubt the Ravager (or Ravagers) would win the war, but it would change the game a bit.

Beni would you please settle the point of whether or not the ravager can be used regardless? as it is the centerpiece of the Triumvirate's armada.

If it is allowed, it automatically puts any ship-to-ship battle in favour of the Sith, along wtih the Interdictor cruisers.

Also to settle the above post's point, the Ravager wasn't under Revan's command, at all, it was Saul Karath's flagship, who didn't become Revan's subordinate until he betrayed the Republic and joined the splinter Sith Empire, he doesn't even follow Revan into the unknown regions, he remains a Rear Admiral in the Republic Navy.

It was only seen at Dxun and then Malachor V where it was 'destroyed' and Karath took up the Leviathan.

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: THE RAVAGER IS OFFICIALLY EXCLUDED FROM THIS BATTLE

Reason: No Nihilus, no Ravager - it's a ghost ship and would fall apart with out him. Traya having the Ravager would be an unfair representation of her power base, as she has no power to keep the Ravager intact. By resurrecting the Ravager the ship became part of Nihilus's power base exclusively, as technically it is an extension of his abilities.

That is all.