are people honestly still complaining that you are no longer allowed to hit 8ks on people?

lets be real.

That is OBVIOUSLY over powered when you can hit more than 50% of someones bar in an opener.

why are people still so upset about that. ridiculous.

What i find more funny is this thread was about the difference in regen between classes and how they favor sorcs.

when clearly the ops have a more efficient cast on that one ability.

are people honestly still complaining that you are no longer allowed to hit 8ks on people?

 

lets be real.

 

That is OBVIOUSLY over powered when you can hit more than 50% of someones bar in an opener.

Most people complaining about the operative nerfs are complaining about the operative nerfs, not the buff stacking and implementation of a 50s bracket that stopped everyone from getting ridiculously high damage numbers.

What i find more funny is this thread was about the difference in regen between classes and how they favor sorcs.

when clearly the ops have a more efficient cast on that one ability.

Yeah, that one ability is clearly overpowered.

Even mentioning its very name can cause a division by zero error and implode the multiverse.

I think the bottom line here is to expect buffs and mechanic changes across the board for operatives. You simply can not release the ability to track healing and damage and not make a good attempt at balance, it would otherwise show a lack of competence on behalf of the developers.

I think the balance discussion post 1.2 will be in terms of utility, where Bioware uses an undisclosed "grading" system to determine how abilities are provided to classes/specs. I think a large grading weight was given to stealth, which was probably a mistake they are seeing in hindsight.

My predictions - big focus on synergy:

1. Base energy regen boosted to be on par with other classes ability pools

2. Lethality complete rework of upper tree. Costs lowered. Range increased including TA generation - upper talents to avoid conceal/lethality hybrid. Talent to give dispel immunity or X% chance on dispel of DoT for it to do immediate damage.

3. Medicine talent rework includes defensive abilities, new casted heal, TA used for bonuses and not heals (e.g. instant cast heal, increase armor by x% on target, grant 100% crit on next heal, etc)

4. Hidden Strike removed and damage rolled in to backstab, shiv, lacerate. 30% crit bonus applied to all. Acid Blade removed as a 31 pt talent and given as a base ability to benefit concealment and lethality together. New 31 pt concealment talent to gain situational advantage vs requirement for pvp type dps. Most likely will be a gap closer of some sort and if used from stealth increases damage for x% for y time.

I look forward to coming back to see how wrong I was

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

the mod trolling the OP?

Georg isn't a mod. He's a lead developer. Big difference.

Secondly, stop trying to compare Agent healers to Sorc healers - they are not the same. They do not play the same. They are actually suited for different things, or intended anyway. Bioware has officially acknowledged at this point that Agent/Smuggler healers need a little love.

Georg isn't a mod. He's a lead developer. Big difference.

 

Secondly, stop trying to compare Agent healers to Sorc healers - they are not the same. They do not play the same. They are actually suited for different things, or intended anyway. Bioware has officially acknowledged at this point that Agent/Smuggler healers need a little love.

It says a lot to me that the lead developer chose to post a snarky response to an OP like this, rather than responding to one of the many, more reasonable, critiques of operative healing.

I just found out about this thread, and I have to say that it really took the wind out of my sails to see Zoeller's post. How disappointing. His was only the 7th developer response on our forums here. Rather than post something useful, the dev not only chose to respond to a fairly worthless thread, but he chose to post a snarky troll response?

Maybe I am playing the wrong game, after all.

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

oh well, your loss, i've already cancelled.

come on.. lets be realistic here. if you were going through a forum full of posts, are you going to respond to them, especially if they made sense? No - there's no need. you add nothing to the conversation. You read, nod at it, and move along to the next post.

When you see a post that makes no sense, its easier to get riled up and actually post something. *shrug* i don't think what he choose to reply to indicates anything other than normal human behavior.

hmm.. guess i'm human too- i'm posting to yours because i disagree, whereas i normally never respond to an agreeable post.

come on.. lets be realistic here. if you were going through a forum full of posts, are you going to respond to them, especially if they made sense? No - there's no need. you add nothing to the conversation. You read, nod at it, and move along to the next post.

 

When you see a post that makes no sense, its easier to get riled up and actually post something. *shrug* i don't think what he choose to reply to indicates anything other than normal human behavior.

Except that it also shows a lapse in judgement in this case. If I post something snarky on these forums, it doesn't carry much weight. I'm not employed by BW, and I'm certainly not the lead designer. I don't need to maintain a semblance of professionalism here. However, when I am acting in a professional capacity, you had better believe that I think twice before speaking, and I have to bite my tongue a lot. Why? Because my words carry more weight when I'm at work, and I know that my behavior reflects on the company that I represent -- both my employer and the people who work under me.

come on.. lets be realistic here. if you were going through a forum full of posts, are you going to respond to them, especially if they made sense? No - there's no need. you add nothing to the conversation. You read, nod at it, and move along to the next post.

 

When you see a post that makes no sense, its easier to get riled up and actually post something. *shrug* i don't think what he choose to reply to indicates anything other than normal human behavior.

 

hmm.. guess i'm human too- i'm posting to yours because i disagree, whereas i normally never respond to an agreeable post.

You truly think it's Normal Human Behavior to deflect questions with ******** answers that are meant to make the reciever of said comment look stupid? People who give thought out points... They've posted 50+ times on other class forums but operatives get a few "hush hush, don't worry we still care kind of" posts and one that's all "are you stupid? they're different classes... i mean, you can read right??"

It's offensive to have those things said and it's even more offensive to receive a post to this thread, when they could've posted about any other well put thread. This one isn't exactly optimal for a dev to make their point...

This whole thing is just insulting, obviously they have plans but they feel like giving every other class pep talks and assurances except for telling us "we're fine, l2p".

Hey,

 

...

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

...

 

Georg

 

 

I wouldnt go slamming a player post with your claim that inquisitors and consulars are mirrors, when there are several problems with them, where the mirrored classes are different and not functioning as mirrors (project vs shock, etc.) Its about as silly as posting that the faction imbalance in this game isnt that big of a deal at the guild summit. I almost fell out of my chair when I heard that one. The faction imbalance in this game is huge, given the IP, and is TOTALLY a result of piss poor design and planning on BWs part.

In any case, your post and its condescension are COMPLETELY inappropriate for a BW employee. Your attitude toward customers is poor and if I was in your management chain, I would have nerfed your posting priviledges on the public forums way back in beta, where you exhibited the exact same attitude in the forums on numerous occasions, and even quoted Nancy McIntyre's INFAMOUS line when Lucas was trying to defend the NGE amidst one of the biggest backlashes in MMO history. You need to take PR classes.

I wouldnt go slamming a player post with your claim that inquisitors and consulars are mirrors, when there are several problems with them, where the mirrored classes are different and not functioning as mirrors (project vs shock, etc.) Its about as silly as posting that the faction imbalance in this game isnt that big of a deal at the guild summit. I almost fell out of my chair when I heard that one. The faction imbalance in this game is huge, given the IP, and is TOTALLY a result a piss poor design and planning on BWs part.

 

In any case, your post and its condescension are COMPLETELY inappropriate for a BW employee. Your attitude toward customers is poor and if I was in your management chain, I would have nerfed your posting priviledges on the public forums way back in beta. You need to take PR classes.

You're joking, right? I'll just assume this post was for a laugh on your part.

If you believe the design work is so poor, stop playing. Can I have your stuff? I, and many other people like the game, and only have a few minor problems. In fact, you have posting priviledges here, so you must be paying for the game also.

The visual effect of a power is meaningless compared to it's numbers in the game. if two powers which are supposed to be mirrors have different visual effects, but the same cast times, same damage, and the same cost, they're the same power. Let's compare Disturbance and Lightning Strike, since they're early powers a lot of people are familiar with. With one, the jedi charges it up, and then lets go, and the enemy appears to just sort of be violently assaulted by power. with the other, the sith charges it up, with lightning at their hands, and then lets go, and lightning strikes from them to the enemy. Very different, right?

But let's look at both powers (i'm using Torhead, because it's easy). here's the description of disturbance:

Disturbance

Activation: 1.5 secs

Force: 30

Range: 30 m

Fires a blast of telekinetic energy at the target, dealing 698 - 762 kinetic damage.

and here's Lightning Strike:

Lightning Strike

Activation: 1.5 secs

Force: 30

Range: 30 m

Fires a charge of lightning at the target, deals 698 - 762 energy damage.

Which one is doing more damage? Which one has a longer cast time? Higher range? oh, right. Which one comes at an earlier level? RIGHT! neither. these are mirrored powers. If the devs wanted, they could change the animation of the power so that you unzipped your pants and pissed on the enemy. If the damage, charge time, aquisition level, and talents related to this are the same, well, they're the same. I'm pretty sure there isn't a disparity between the factions that isn't player-created.

In any case, your post and its condescension are COMPLETELY inappropriate for a fan of the game. Your attitude toward Bioware is poor and if I was in BW's management, I would have removed your speaking priviledges on the public forums way back in beta. You need to take anger management classes.

come on.. lets be realistic here. if you were going through a forum full of posts, are you going to respond to them, especially if they made sense? No - there's no need. you add nothing to the conversation. You read, nod at it, and move along to the next post.

 

When you see a post that makes no sense, its easier to get riled up and actually post something. *shrug* i don't think what he choose to reply to indicates anything other than normal human behavior.

 

hmm.. guess i'm human too- i'm posting to yours because i disagree, whereas i normally never respond to an agreeable post.

I use to be optimistic about SWTOR developers having a clue about their classes, but then I took a Surgical Probe to an old knee injury.

And it didn't burst.

the moment you clowns claimed that all healing classes are equally viable, you lost all credibility. you aren't perfectly aware of much tbh and shows with the utter lack of interest or posts in the agent/smuggler forums.

 

oh well, your loss, i've already cancelled.

lol,

rage unsub - A movement to attack MMO's since 2004.

You're joking, right? I'll just assume this post was for a laugh on your part...

 

But let's look at both powers (i'm using Torhead, because it's easy). here's the description of disturbance:

 

 

and here's Lightning Strike:

 

I wish I was joking. And if 1.2 doesnt provide much of what this game should have had at launch then I wont be the only one out of here. Of course "deprecating" Ilum instead of providing a viable pvp endgame planet isnt exactly progress for a game with 100s millions of dollars and 5 years of development behind it.

Try the same little analogy with project and shock, in the game - where it matters, not from internet postings of tooltips, and tell me all about how the mirrors are so well done...NO one ever claimed disturbance and lightning strike were off, btw. Project and shock were the example I gave, but jumping to disturbance and lightning strike, when no one mentioned them, was pure genius, but different.

And as a fan of star wars and a paying customer of this game, I am MORE than within my right to opine about the nature of dev comments. See there is a difference between paying customer, and representative of a company that wants that customer to keep paying. Something you and Georg Nancy seem to be incapable of grasping. I am certainly not the only customer that found that dev post out of bounds. Dev communication is sparse enough without our money going to fund Georg's inner troll.

Being a fan of this game is great, hope that works out for you. If it means that you get to slurp up whatever crap some egotistical dev posts, then enjoy...I'm sure that will work out wonderfully for you too, just like Ilum has worked so well, or, meh why even bother, a dialogue with you is pointless.

You're joking, right? I'll just assume this post was for a laugh on your part.

 

...

 

The visual effect of a power is meaningless compared to it's numbers in the game. if two powers which are supposed to be mirrors have different visual effects, but the same cast times, same damage, and the same cost, they're the same power. Let's compare Disturbance and Lightning Strike, since they're early powers a lot of people are familiar with. With one, the jedi charges it up, and then lets go, and the enemy appears to just sort of be violently assaulted by power. with the other, the sith charges it up, with lightning at their hands, and then lets go, and lightning strikes from them to the enemy. Very different, right?

 

...

 

Which one is doing more damage? Which one has a longer cast time? Higher range? oh, right. Which one comes at an earlier level? RIGHT! neither. these are mirrored powers. If the devs wanted, they could change the animation of the power so that you unzipped your pants and pissed on the enemy. If the damage, charge time, aquisition level, and talents related to this are the same, well, they're the same. I'm pretty sure there isn't a disparity between the factions that isn't player-created.

 

In any case, your post and its condescension are COMPLETELY inappropriate for a fan of the game. Your attitude toward Bioware is poor and if I was in BW's management, I would have removed your speaking priviledges on the public forums way back in beta. You need to take anger management classes.

it isn't about the damage, the visuals actually DO matter. There are animation delays, part of their "cinematic combat."

When a Sage/Shadow uses Project, they rip a droid or rock out of the ground, then throw it at their opponent. This animation takes ~0.6 seconds. When a Sorc/Assassin uses shock (the 'mirrored' ability), they instantly fire lightning from their hand. No 0.6s delay.

This has noticeable effects. If you see a regular mob casting a heal, project/shock will stun them. 0.6s can easily be the difference between that heal landing or not.

When you have a buff about to wear off, such as Force Potency or Particle Acceleration, and it is consumed on hit, you can cast Project while you have the buff, and have it fall off before it arrives. This is particularly noticeable with Particle Acceleration, which gives Project a 100% critical chance. You frequently see Projects cast as that buff is about to expire not crit, because it fell off. This does not happen with Shock.

Similar problem of animation delay having a negative impact are widespread on the Trooper, and absent from the BH. BH's who try and play a Trooper often report that they cannot, just due to the sluggishness of the animation delays. The Devs have stated that Trooper animations have been heavily redone for 1.2 to try and address this. How successful that is remains to be seen.

These effects are real, they are documented, and the Devs have both acknowledged them and stated they are being addressed in 1.2. Do try and be informed before making condescending posts.

trolls post because they do not understand... As stated above, the visual effects matter a LOT because your damage isn't dealt until the visual impacts on your target.

So if you put shock and project side by side, shock hits instantly because it's just a pop of electricity. Project has to pull a rock up out of the ground and then throw it. I've actually had to time go immune after an opponent casts project, but before it hits me, saved my life and i was able to finish him.

The same thing can be said for the IA explosive probe and the smugglers Sabotage charge. The smuggler has to physically throw the charge onto an enemy in order for it to work, having a ~1 sec travel time to reach its target. Imperial agents call explosive probe down from the sky instantly, allowing you to actually cast Snipe THEN explosive probe and have that same snipe shot blow up the explosive probe.

Also dirty kick had issues being used if not standing completely still where debilitate happened immediately and without issues.

The "mirror" classes are only that way in theory, not in actuality. And yes, it's still offensive to be treated as such by a developing member of the bioware team, i know he was taught manners at some point but clearly not given the capacity to use them. I would certainly be upset if i were this guys boss, what a dick remark.

trolls post because they do not understand... As stated above, the visual effects matter a LOT because your damage isn't dealt until the visual impacts on your target.

 

So if you put shock and project side by side, shock hits instantly because it's just a pop of electricity. Project has to pull a rock up out of the ground and then throw it. I've actually had to time go immune after an opponent casts project, but before it hits me, saved my life and i was able to finish him.

 

The same thing can be said for the IA explosive probe and the smugglers Sabotage charge. The smuggler has to physically throw the charge onto an enemy in order for it to work, having a ~1 sec travel time to reach its target. Imperial agents call explosive probe down from the sky instantly, allowing you to actually cast Snipe THEN explosive probe and have that same snipe shot blow up the explosive probe.

 

Also dirty kick had issues being used if not standing completely still where debilitate happened immediately and without issues.

 

 

The "mirror" classes are only that way in theory, not in actuality. And yes, it's still offensive to be treated as such by a developing member of the bioware team, i know he was taught manners at some point but clearly not given the capacity to use them. I would certainly be upset if i were this guys boss, what a dick remark.

imo smugglers have it better though cause snipe for operatives makes them stand for the full duration of the cast (1.5sec) and being vulnerable all this time, while snipe for smugglers they charge the ability while in cover and just pop out an instant to fire it.

Hey everyone; class balance conversations can be inflammatory and easily spin out of control. I'd like to ask everyone to keep on topic here and not allow the conversation to become too vitriolic.

Georg has posted multiple times on class balance and our views on the discussion of class balancing. As a general rule we don't comment too much on changes before those changes are playable, usually on the Public Test Server. Changes have been made to Imperial Agents including Operatives in Game Update 1.2, as Georg has mentioned before. You'll be able to see those on PTS before too long; we'll probably provide more detail on the rationale behind those changes after we see some feedback from yourselves based on PTS play. (And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS. We're already getting early feedback from in-house testing, but the more we get, the better.)

No class in The Old Republic is being 'ignored', but every class is examined and balanced with an eye to the overall balance of the game. As many of us play one class to the exclusion of others, it's easy sometimes to think that your class is being unfairly treated. It's not a deliberate strategy. Any suggestion that a class is being deliberately ignored in favor of another class (or faction) is unfair, at best.

The development team read the Forums and act on feedback here (as well as many other sources, including a lot of data from within the game). Your feedback has helped shape Game Update 1.2 and it will definitely help shape the game in the future.

Changes have been made to Imperial Agents including Operatives in Game Update 1.2, as Georg has mentioned before. You'll be able to see those on PTS before too long; we'll probably provide more detail on the rationale behind those changes after we see some feedback from yourselves based on PTS play. (And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS. We're already getting early feedback from in-house testing, but the more we get, the better.)

Any hints on how long is "before too long"?

The biggest problem we have at the moment is little information to go on and a history that tells us the PTS doesn't get updated long enough before an update goes live for any of our feedback to result in any significant changes.

Sure.

 

It's alright to nerf Operative

 

[...]

 

Let's look at one example. Pre pull preparation in a 4 man hard mode run.

 

Operative has to use on ability 8 times (stack it 2 times on each player) that costs him 15 energy each cast (120 in total).

 

[...] <- the math done here is correct

 

48 energy = 48% of the operatives base pool.

 

The sorcerer

[...]

116 is = 23% of their base pool. 212 = 42.4% of their base pool of 500. I dont know of any sorcerers who do not have 600 force.

Sorry mate, you sound too much like a permanent rant. You also seem to ALWAYS forget regen % on your calculations:

Operatives regen at 5% total energy per second, 3% per second in medium zone, 2% in lowest regen tier. Without the buff.

Socerers regen at 8/500 = 1.6% per second. Without buffs. Even less if they have 600 Force.

Devs have already stated that they are fixing operatives. What is exactly your point?

And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS.

That's pretty much impossible until we can copy characters. Class balance is a level 50 thing, and I'm certainly not leveling a character on the PTS.

Hey everyone; class balance conversations can be inflammatory and easily spin out of control. I'd like to ask everyone to keep on topic here and not allow the conversation to become too vitriolic.

 

Georg has posted multiple times on class balance and our views on the discussion of class balancing. As a general rule we don't comment too much on changes before those changes are playable, usually on the Public Test Server. Changes have been made to Imperial Agents including Operatives in Game Update 1.2, as Georg has mentioned before. You'll be able to see those on PTS before too long; we'll probably provide more detail on the rationale behind those changes after we see some feedback from yourselves based on PTS play. (And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS. We're already getting early feedback from in-house testing, but the more we get, the better.)

 

No class in The Old Republic is being 'ignored', but every class is examined and balanced with an eye to the overall balance of the game. As many of us play one class to the exclusion of others, it's easy sometimes to think that your class is being unfairly treated. It's not a deliberate strategy. Any suggestion that a class is being deliberately ignored in favor of another class (or faction) is unfair, at best.

 

The development team read the Forums and act on feedback here (as well as many other sources, including a lot of data from within the game). Your feedback has helped shape Game Update 1.2 and it will definitely help shape the game in the future.

Explain to me how I can test said upcoming features without having a copy of my character on the PTS? I absolutely will not attempt to level/gear a character on the PTS because you've failed to implement a proper character creation system for PTS Testing.

Sorry mate, you sound too much like a permanent rant. You also seem to ALWAYS forget regen % on your calculations:

 

Operatives regen at 5% total energy per second, 3% per second in medium zone, 2% in lowest regen tier. Without the buff.

 

Socerers regen at 8/500 = 1.6% per second. Without buffs. Even less if they have 600 Force.

 

What is exactly your point?

The "forget regen % on your calculations" IS his point.

Do you really think anyone cares how long it takes each healer to fill their bar back up?

Or do we care how long it takes each healer to be able to afford a cast?