I wonder sometimes what condition this game would be in if the roles of PvP and PvE were switched. Let me paint you a picture.

For you PvE'rs who think the PvP players are living on easy st, riddle me this. What if Bioware announced today that all Open World PvE encounters no longer granted xp? They no longer ranted credits, or drops, or gear, or social points, or legacy xp. Killing any NPC, regardless of its level or difficult whether in an Open World or an instanced/FP no longer provided rewards. These are now considered "fun" encounters without rewards. Go kill the world bosses or random weak NPC for the "fun of it."

All quests have been removed. No story lines, planetary, or companion quests. Hell no more companions or ships or speeders. Only 1 daily and 1 weekly quest remain that will provide very little rewards.

The way you will gain xp/credits from now on will be through 8 man Operation Group. You may group with no more than 4 people, and have 4-7 random people join you. You will not be able to chose class composition, nor will you be able to remove any players that under-perform from group. If you leave the OP Group, even in the last seconds of the ops, you will receive NO reward, even if you simply go LD. In order to compensate for this, Ops groups will last between 5-20 minutes on average so you may complete more per day.

You will get gear, but it will be worse than wearing no gear. The encounters will be able to kill you within a few GCDs. Most of the Ops group will be sprinting back into a fight after repeated deaths. (No worries because we are removing your repair costs).

You will also Not be able to PvP if you so chose in the gear obtained through Ops groups, however the PvPrs will be able to join your Ops groups and have their gear bolstered to be able to complete your encounters.

Finally, Bioware is dead set on making it easier to PvE, dumbing down all the aspects of PvE so that PvP'rs feel more comfortable transitioning over. There is no new content on its way and they have stated that everything listed above is "working as intended" and the direction they want to move the game in.

Oh, and you only get points in your skill tree by leveling your valor, not your experience. So your forced to PvP in order to be competitive in PvE.

But the same question can be reversed. PVP has a progression system. Granted, it's not as "standard" as PVE, but it certainly has one.

With your example you are forgetting (or at least, did not consider) level progression.

Now I imagine you say "level progression does not make a good PVP'er!" Tbh, I could not agree more!!! However, it does not make a good PVE'er either. When it comes to level progression, a player should utilize the tools she is given. Unfortunately, for both PVE and PVP, this does not always happen.

However, what does happen all too often, is this....

Rubbish player hiits level cap. They march through the process (both PVE and PVP) and slowly gain the gear. Suddenly, they are super awesome in either field. Now, this awesomeness does not come from the player, but the gear they were granted through the time the spent in the game. This does not equal to skill!!!

Now nobody has yet to reach the top tear of PVP, so there is no telling on how well FULL PVP GEAR will hold out. The same applies for PVE gear.

It's a two way street. Even more so now that the shells do not carry the gear bonus. People are finding their own way to fight in both fields

@chimex

The point I was trying to make, wasnt about bolster or gear, those are symptoms of a greater problem. As a whole, pvp in this game is treated as nothing more than a side game by the developers, a Star Wars FPS set in the world of an MMO. With no dynamic, no progression, no purpose, all for the "fun of it."

My point is, how much fun is running the same 5 Ops groups over and over and over and over.....with no other meaningful alternative. We are told that killing each other for fun, is the reward. It is the carrot, it is the purpose. But if thats true then the list of changes above to PvE should be a welcomed change.

lol weak hyperbole is weak.

try again. this game is based on pve. pvp is afterthought.it sad but true. this game is based on stories and pve quests, believe me, this game can honestly survive without pvp; however, if bw took your asinine approach with pve, this game will die. the OP reeks of "oh noez they took mah i win gear, so i =m gonna paint a ridiculous scenario that doesnt make sense in order to get my QQ...i mean whine...."point" across pve players derpside"

im a hardcore pvper, i had a fully deck out EWH (augmented) before the 2.0 patch and you dont see me QQing all over these forums about the changes. in fact, i love that they change it. no lie, pre 2.0 i honest could had tank and kill anyone who didnt have at least full war hero armor and even then with enough stims and medpacs , i could still kill them without needing reinforcements.

you know, the only ppl i see crying about this, are those who had premades, and miss the roflstomp. dont get me wrong, it is fun to own a entire team with little effort, but having a premade made me realize....that those players ...did not know how to play effectively. in fact, that is what happening right now, former premade players is clueless and losing to lvl 30 -49 because they dont really know how to play. and that the problem here..PREMADE CANT PLAY WITHOUT THEIRS CRUTCHES. i was just in a WZ before reading this and i can tell you it was amazing

to see premade running around like idiots while the lower players was actually playing more effectively.

this WZ change is gonna do 2 things.

1. it gonna strengthen PROPER pvp gameplay, you know actually teamwork. no more lone hero BS.

2. weed out "the pros", who was just noobs in disguise.

I wonder sometimes what condition this game would be in if the roles of PvP and PvE were switched. Let me paint you a picture.

 

For you PvE'rs who think the PvP players are living on easy st, riddle me this. What if Bioware announced today that all Open World PvE encounters no longer granted xp? They no longer ranted credits, or drops, or gear, or social points, or legacy xp. Killing any NPC, regardless of its level or difficult whether in an Open World or an instanced/FP no longer provided rewards. These are now considered "fun" encounters without rewards. Go kill the world bosses or random weak NPC for the "fun of it."

 

All quests have been removed. No story lines, planetary, or companion quests. Hell no more companions or ships or speeders. Only 1 daily and 1 weekly quest remain that will provide very little rewards.

 

The way you will gain xp/credits from now on will be through 8 man Operation Group. You may group with no more than 4 people, and have 4-7 random people join you. You will not be able to chose class composition, nor will you be able to remove any players that under-perform from group. If you leave the OP Group, even in the last seconds of the ops, you will receive NO reward, even if you simply go LD. In order to compensate for this, Ops groups will last between 5-20 minutes on average so you may complete more per day.

 

You will get gear, but it will be worse than wearing no gear. The encounters will be able to kill you within a few GCDs. Most of the Ops group will be sprinting back into a fight after repeated deaths. (No worries because we are removing your repair costs).

 

You will also Not be able to PvP if you so chose in the gear obtained through Ops groups, however the PvPrs will be able to join your Ops groups and have their gear bolstered to be able to complete your encounters.

 

Finally, Bioware is dead set on making it easier to PvE, dumbing down all the aspects of PvE so that PvP'rs feel more comfortable transitioning over. There is no new content on its way and they have stated that everything listed above is "working as intended" and the direction they want to move the game in.

 

Oh, and you only get points in your skill tree by leveling your valor, not your experience. So your forced to PvP in order to be competitive in PvE.

If you really want to switch things around how about adding repair costs for PvP deaths! Why don't you think about that one.

If you really want to switch things around how about adding repair costs for PvP deaths! Why don't you think about that one.

this and i forgot to mention this...YOU ARE NOT FORCE TO PVE TO BE BETTER IN PVP

im sorry for the caps, but man are you guys need to get that thru your skull.

lvl 55 pvp gear IS still better than lvl 55 pve gear in WZ.

If you really want to switch things around how about adding repair costs for PvP deaths! Why don't you think about that one.

And it would also require rewards to be added for simply dying/trying.

If you really want to switch things around how about adding repair costs for PvP deaths! Why don't you think about that one.

actually I did, and noted it in the OP which you quoted.

The biggest problem you have designing PvP systems that provide meaningful rewards, is the players WILL GAME THE SYSTEM.

Just remember what Illum was like when people traded kills for Valour.

PvE systems are a lot harder to game.

pvping grants experience. my operative wouldn't be able to level through it otherwise. completing pvp dailies, grants credits. it grants free consumables. there are no weekly caps on warzone commendations. pvp grants titles. pvp grants ability to wear very specific looking gear, that you cannot cheese your way to, but buying equivalents. crafted former pvp shells have valor requirement. you can successfully advance in pvp without having to do dailies for credits, you can die your way through it and still advance.

just to put things in perspective.

I'm getting very tired of the pvp vs pve debate, of vindictiveness on BOTH sides.

and btw, I both think that pvp should grant at least a small amount of social points, conditionally (similar to medals actually - need to make effort to cooperate with others and achieve objectives in order to get them) and I think that bioware should stop putting pve objectives into pvp zones.

I primarily pve. I recently started to pvp a bit more. pvp needs some work. it needs more variety. but its not THAT bad off. pve could use more variety too. some new flashpoints would be nice.

lol weak hyperbole is weak.

 

try again. this game is based on pve. pvp is afterthought.it sad but true. this game is based on stories and pve quests, believe me, this game can honestly survive without pvp; however, if bw took your asinine approach with pve, this game will die. the OP reeks of "oh noez they took mah i win gear, so i =m gonna paint a ridiculous scenario that doesnt make sense in order to get my QQ...i mean whine...."point" across pve players derpside"

 

 

im a hardcore pvper, i had a fully deck out EWH (augmented) before the 2.0 patch and you dont see me QQing all over these forums about the changes. in fact, i love that they change it. no lie, pre 2.0 i honest could had tank and kill anyone who didnt have at least full war hero armor and even then with enough stims and medpacs , i could still kill them without needing reinforcements.

 

you know, the only ppl i see crying about this, are those who had premades, and miss the roflstomp. dont get me wrong, it is fun to own a entire team with little effort, but having a premade made me realize....that those players ...did not know how to play effectively. in fact, that is what happening right now, former premade players is clueless and losing to lvl 30 -49 because they dont really know how to play. and that the problem here..PREMADE CANT PLAY WITHOUT THEIRS CRUTCHES. i was just in a WZ before reading this and i can tell you it was amazing

to see premade running around like idiots while the lower players was actually playing more effectively.

 

 

this WZ change is gonna do 2 things.

 

1. it gonna strengthen PROPER pvp gameplay, you know actually teamwork. no more lone hero BS.

 

2. weed out "the pros", who was just noobs in disguise.

my entire post of 20+ examples of negligence with PvP and you picked on 2....naked pvp and bolster (which btw are legitimate complaints that have only been partly addressed.)

Once again.....reading comprehension skills are important here....my overall point was not about the lack of gear progression. It is about the lack of ...well...everything in regards to PvP outside of the FPS style PvP.

I'm sure the FPS crowd is glad for the changes. You want everything to be based on twitch style fighting. I get that. I have no qualms with it. I dont personally enjoy FPS games....which is why I chose an MMO. And if Bioware had put as much effort into developing PvP is this game, as they put into a single planet, perhaps, no guarantees, but perhaps this game wouldnt have bled over a million subs within the first 6 months.

What many people dont understand is that a dynamic pvp environment has so much more that simply War Zones. They're fun, repetitive at times. and the match making system (or lack thereof) leaves much to be desired. But its just War Zones. Its so pointless I could care less if they got rid of them all together and brought in a more diverse and dynamic OW system or even a Battle Ground system. Hell they could even do arenas (not that it interests me) and say they atleast did something to expand the PvP.

And no it wont it wont do either or those 2 things it mentioned. You want to end weak players in PvP? And strengthen PvP? Neither will happen. Take a look at the condition of ranked. Long queue times, groups trying to double queue for regular matches, predictable. There so much fun everyone is rushing to queue for it right?

Truth is when skill is the deciding factor, its a twitch based FPS. Weaker players will always lose. Be it by gear, or skill, or ping time, or even how fast they can move their fingers. Should these be important? Absolutely. As should intelligence, wisdom, strategy, experience....and yes things like gear or.....time spent on a character.

pvping grants experience. my operative wouldn't be able to level through it otherwise. completing pvp dailies, grants credits. it grants free consumables. there are no weekly caps on warzone commendations. pvp grants titles. pvp grants ability to wear very specific looking gear, that you cannot cheese your way to, but buying equivalents. crafted former pvp shells have valor requirement. you can successfully advance in pvp without having to do dailies for credits, you can die your way through it and still advance.

 

just to put things in perspective.

 

I'm getting very tired of the pvp vs pve debate, of vindictiveness on BOTH sides.

and btw, I both think that pvp should grant at least a small amount of social points, conditionally (similar to medals actually - need to make effort to cooperate with others and achieve objectives in order to get them) and I think that bioware should stop putting pve objectives into pvp zones.

 

I primarily pve. I recently started to pvp a bit more. pvp needs some work. it needs more variety. but its not THAT bad off. pve could use more variety too. some new flashpoints would be nice.

I didnt say you couldnt xp in PvP. I said to remove xp on everything except for the ops and 1 daily 1 weekly. Reread if your unsure. Because in PvE you cant get xp for everything, while in PvP, you only get xp for completing one of the 3 examples I gave. For example, you dont get xp for killing players, you get xp for finishing a wz.

I'm not trying to debate which is better. I'm simply saying lets switch shoes. Do one, from 1-55, then do the other 1-55. One has you repetively doing the same thing all 55 levels. The other has you doing something very different every second your logged in. Then end game there is still quite to do with one, and literally the exact same 1-55 experience for the other.

this and i forgot to mention this...YOU ARE NOT FORCE TO PVE TO BE BETTER IN PVP

 

im sorry for the caps, but man are you guys need to get that thru your skull.

 

lvl 55 pvp gear IS still better than lvl 55 pve gear in WZ.

No need to hate. This is about seeing things through different eyes. Try it. Try to see things from another person's shoes rather than your own. Empathize as it were.

Its not about which is better, harder, easier. This isnt about gear, or gear progression. It isnt about skill. It isnt about bolster it isnt about rewards, or xp or even you and me....

Its about the lack of purpose. Its about lack of direction, objective, growth, allignment and reason for PvP.

PvE is why I continue to play this game, mostly cause the PvP is....well it isnt bad because frankly it simply isnt there at all. What we have is meaningless unblanced and pointless deathmatches. Sure you can scream all you want about playing the objectives but atleast the guy playing deathmatch on the side is having fun which is more than can be said about the poor SOB solo guarding the node that never gets attacked.

But at heart I am a pvp'r and my hopes, however misplaced they may be, is that Bioware does something creative and powerful with PvP. Get that through your thick skull ( I kid, just a playful jab)

I personally agree with the post the OP has made. Some of it may seem a little ridiculous, but who doesn't exaggerate when trying to make a point sometimes? The OP is not complaining specifically about bolster or naked PvP, though they are both issues that are being 'fixed' ( Soon ).

The reason I took this the way I did, I think, is that I've been following a lot of QQ threads about really minor design flaws in PvE, while the PvP community is in limbo because nothing is working as intended. So when you put the life of a PvPer in a PvEr's shoes, it's just humourous and interesting.

I don't agree 100% but neither do I completely disagree. I consider myself a PvPer in this game, and I'm not terribly angry about the PvP situation right now because I'm sure it will be fixed and balanced soon. In the meantime, I find tactics still work against any random PUG, no matter how much they glitch their gear out. Stupid is stupid.

I was able to take this post lightly, not super serious, and not as a QQ thread. Maybe others should learn to do the same.

A very interesting and legitimate point made here.

On a side note, Star Wars has no essence of the WAR in it really. Would love to see some pvp content which has remained unexpanded upon since launch. (Two wz's aside)

I didnt say you couldnt xp in PvP. I said to remove xp on everything except for the ops and 1 daily 1 weekly. Reread if your unsure. Because in PvE you cant get xp for everything, while in PvP, you only get xp for completing one of the 3 examples I gave. For example, you dont get xp for killing players, you get xp for finishing a wz.

 

I'm not trying to debate which is better. I'm simply saying lets switch shoes. Do one, from 1-55, then do the other 1-55. One has you repetively doing the same thing all 55 levels. The other has you doing something very different every second your logged in. Then end game there is still quite to do with one, and literally the exact same 1-55 experience for the other.

you are not limited to a single warzone per day. in pve, sure you get xp for kills, but real gains come from finishing quests and finishing flashpoints - that little "complete" at the end you get. they are not that much different from pvp, and unlike leveling flashpoints, you are not penalized in your xp gain because you are too high level for it, but not high enough level for the next flashpoint range.

yes, there should be more warzones. I agree. there are too few right now. but the variation to pvp experience comes from the fact that you are playing against other players. no pve experience could EVER replicate that. yes the balance should be fixed. however, this being primarily a pve game, as much as it sucks - I'm not surprised that pvp falls lower on developer's priority list. is it a good thing? no. its not. but no role reversal exaggerations will convince developers to make pvp their top priority. not when there are just as many issues with pve content.

meantime - they ARE trying. and for all the issues with bolster, at least it allows someone like me who might occasionally feel like pvping, but was discouraged before, because I didn't have the gear - still go in and play and not be immediately squashed anymore (and no, I don't naked pvp)

you are not limited to a single warzone per day. in pve, sure you get xp for kills, but real gains come from finishing quests and finishing flashpoints - that little "complete" at the end you get. they are not that much different from pvp, and unlike leveling flashpoints, you are not penalized in your xp gain because you are too high level for it, but not high enough level for the next flashpoint range.

 

yes, there should be more warzones. I agree. there are too few right now. but the variation to pvp experience comes from the fact that you are playing against other players. no pve experience could EVER replicate that. yes the balance should be fixed. however, this being primarily a pve game, as much as it sucks - I'm not surprised that pvp falls lower on developer's priority list. is it a good thing? no. its not. but no role reversal exaggerations will convince developers to make pvp their top priority. not when there are just as many issues with pve content.

 

meantime - they ARE trying. and for all the issues with bolster, at least it allows someone like me who might occasionally feel like pvping, but was discouraged before, because I didn't have the gear - still go in and play and not be immediately squashed anymore (and no, I don't naked pvp)

I still think your misunderstanding.

Let me put it another way. In the current game I can, kill NPCs endlessly, Kill Players endlessly, do quests, dailies, FP, OPs, WZ, story lines, heroics, explore, craft, gather....

Ok so all of these are aspects of the game. PvP is viewed as a single aspect....WZ. Pve is viewed as everything else. The reason for this is the game was designed with PvP and PvE as 2 separate entities.

Now that isnt inherently bad. What is bad, is when you divide your players intentionally, and then show favoritism to one over the other. Now we can discuss the different levels and variations of that favoritism, because I did bring it up as examples in my Original Post. My point being that if we switched roles......1 for 1, and every disparity of PvP and advantage, is placed on the PvE crowd, with the exception of the actually killing of other players, there wouldn't be a heck of alot of people happy about that change. Not to say they wouldnt be happy about cromm limits or repair costs, but the overall purpose and attention each facet of this game receives.

The better point is why these systems, or 2 different facets of the game, or even separated at all? Why does PvP need to grant gear? Why not replace PvP gear with Valor Skill Tree? Why not create staging or defense areas that can be battled for in the Open World? Why cant PvP and PvE coexist? They arnt naturally against each other. The developers simply made it that way...and for what reason?

I still think your misunderstanding.

 

Let me put it another way. In the current game I can, kill NPCs endlessly, Kill Players endlessly, do quests, dailies, FP, OPs, WZ, story lines, heroics, explore, craft, gather....

 

Ok so all of these are aspects of the game. PvP is viewed as a single aspect....WZ. Pve is viewed as everything else. The reason for this is the game was designed with PvP and PvE as 2 separate entities.

 

Now that isnt inherently bad. What is bad, is when you divide your players intentionally, and then show favoritism to one over the other. Now we can discuss the different levels and variations of that favoritism, because I did bring it up as examples in my Original Post. My point being that if we switched roles......1 for 1, and every disparity of PvP and advantage, is placed on the PvE crowd, with the exception of the actually killing of other players, there wouldn't be a heck of alot of people happy about that change. Not to say they wouldnt be happy about cromm limits or repair costs, but the overall purpose and attention each facet of this game receives.

 

The better point is why these systems, or 2 different facets of the game, or even separated at all? Why does PvP need to grant gear? Why not replace PvP gear with Valor Skill Tree? Why not create staging or defense areas that can be battled for in the Open World? Why cant PvP and PvE coexist? They arnt naturally against each other. The developers simply made it that way...and for what reason?

no, I don't think I am. you are thinking of pvp as THE game, while it really isn't not in this game. its only aspect of the game, something added for people who might enjoy it, like datacron hunts and rep grinds. developers didn't intentional separate pvp and pve players. players themselves did that. while plenty of people enjoy both aspects of the game (just like people can enjoy operations and roleplaying at the same time) for most people either pvp OR pve is not fun. they don't want to do it. ever. so the reason why pvp and pve is separate? and should be kept separate. because no one likes to be forced into doing content they do not enjoy.

the problem is... its damn near impossible to create a game that has equal focus on both types of gameplay AND keeps them separate. one will always suffer, so you pick one and focus on it. in case of TOR its pve. in case of warhammer - the game evolved into pvp. try doing pve content in it. its possible, but almost no one levels through it and at end game, people only do it occasionally to get some good items that will make them stronger in pvp.

TOR is by design a pve game. so it attracts people who prefer to pve. this is the majority of people it manages to retain. is it a self fulfilling prophecy and the ever escalating circle? yes. but I don't think bioware has resources to focus on both equally and not drop the ball worse and worse on both. they ARE trying. but that favoritism you speak of? its not malicious. and expecting pvp to be precisely equal to pve in THIS particular game? is just a tad unrealistic. you know?

the idea of staging and defence areas in open world with clear objectives and advantages to be gain from it? that would be fantastic. I hope they have something in a works for that. and I don't think most people would begrudge pvpers new content to play with. just not at the cost of primary focus of this game. which is pve.

if this game would be pvp? it would have an entirely different player base.

Your assumption is that somehow this game and its population is mostly PvE oriented with some PvPers?

http://www.swtor.com/blog/meet-developers-jonathan-crow

In this blog by Mr. Crow, there is a graph that represents the amount of time people spend in various locations. Number 1 is obviously the fleet, as this is the central hub.

Number 2 is planets, because thats where most people will level at.

What comes in 3rd place?

Even if you count dailies, FPs, and Ops together (Your PvE population) That still doesnt compare to the number of time spent on the fleet. So should we say PvF (players vs fleet) is the majority? And your still talking about a huge chunck of the players being in WZs.

Hell go to the fleet some time and see how many players are sitting around the PvP terminal....then run over to the PvE terminal. I think you'll notice a difference.

This assumption that the player base is "omg in luv" with PvE and nobody PvPs is just silly. You take out the Roughly 15% (pvp'rs in WZ) and another rough 15% (pvp'ers in the fleet) and this game goes under in the matter of months, not years. (speculation of course, added for some flare and hyperbole)

you are forgetting role playing and general hanging out. shopping, GTNing, waiting for that OP to finish forming, guild meetings, crafting and selling etc. there are a lot of things people do on the fleet. its a hub after all. people waiting for warzones to pop are not a separate unique group. they could be overlapping with above. often do. they could also be out on planets leveling. often do

however, you are trying to put words into my mouth. you seem to be implying that I claim that no one pvpes. I never said such a thing. obviously people pvp. every once in awhile, I'm one of those people.

what I AM saying however, is that bulk of TOR players spend more time pveing than pvping. and there are a great deal more people who ONLY pve then ONLY pvp. in fact, people who stick to pvp only are very likely a tiny segment of overall population. most people either do a little bit of both, or pve only. so when it comes to trying to create content that will give most bang for the buck - in TOR pve will always take priority.

but bioware still adding pvp content, pvp changes. they just don't have resources to add it with the same frequency as pve content. because of above focus.

this game has very few dedicated pvpers. it has people who enjoy pvp content, some enjoy it a great deal and with great frequency. but for most people here, pvp is only one aspect of the game of many. not the primary only aspect. after all - unlike pvp oriented games, you cannot level in TOR through pvp alone and not be disadvantaged in any way and the game wasn't designed for it from the start. I'm not sure if you want it to be. impression I'm getting is that you do. never going to happen, not in this game.

does it mean they should abandon pvp altogether - hell no. its an aspect of the game people enjoy well enough to give it at least some focus. more of a focus then companions get. do you think bolster was added because they want people to pvp less? however. this. is. a pve game. i cannot say it enough. pvp content is an aspect of it. not a primary focus. its an aspect equal to flashpoints (which are one aspect of pve). and its getting roughly the same amount of focus. possibly a bit more. expecting it to get more focus than that? I'm sorry, but not in this game.

Just another player who thinks the world should revolve around PvP

Another player that think this world revolves around pve ONLY. People like variety.

As a pve player, that dabbles in pvp, I want variety not just the same two missions. Heck I ask on fleet the other day and with almost universal agreement they were wanting more from pvp.

the problem is... its damn near impossible to create a game that has equal focus on both types of gameplay AND keeps them separate. one will always suffer, so you pick one and focus on it.

I agree, it's my opinion that if MMOs stuck to one or the other, they'd be much better games. But they wouldn't get as many subscribers/customers. That and it would be one less thing to divide the community.