Hi SWTOR community. I am looking for some assistance with stat allocation for CURRENT end game (HM Asatia) stats for a vanguard. I am hoping to find a complete bad-*** tank in a first-kill guild (or something close), who can clue me in on their stats. There is a billion sources for info (most of it OLD), spreadsheets, forums etc. I feel like the more I read the more confused I am.

I am gearing for max mitigation and not EHP.

In conclusion. My current stats are DEF: 15% Shield 57% Absorb 60%. This was after I changed out some absorb for defense based on all of my research so far (previously was at DEF 12%, Shield 59%, Abosrb 64%).

Can someone who has downed most of HM Asatia please list their working percentages for tanking?

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE.

Rhino-B

I'm currently running this. I would have preferred getting the immunity and sturdiness enhancements instead, but I couldn't find a crafter nor find them at any of the black hole/campaign vendors, so I had to make do with what I could find.

It's not perfect, a WH defense relic combined with swapping a bunch of defense augments for absorb would probably give better overall stats, but since I don't like PVP that's just not something I've gotten around to acquiring yet.

Current progress: EC HM 4/4, TFB HM 5/5. Haven't had a chance at EC NiM since it was our other tanks turn in the rotation when we did that.

Wow, nice to see we have close to the same idea's on spec. I only took 2 in endurance because having the extra dps/threat boost from the 8% ion cell boost is monster for raid. (your prototype cylinders).

Also nice to see I am building my low defense percentage in the right direction.

I bought the Hazmat Defense relic to sub out absorb for defense. Looks like I just need to buy one more of those and aug it with defense I and should be MUCH closer to optimal.

So unless another UBER tank can school me up. I am going to "aim" for roughly. Defense 20% Shield 58% Absorb 57%.

Hi SWTOR community. I am looking for some assistance with stat allocation for CURRENT end game (HM Asatia) stats for a vanguard. I am hoping to find a complete bad-*** tank in a first-kill guild (or something close), who can clue me in on their stats. There is a billion sources for info (most of it OLD), spreadsheets, forums etc. I feel like the more I read the more confused I am.

 

I am gearing for max mitigation and not EHP.

 

In conclusion. My current stats are DEF: 15% Shield 57% Absorb 60%. This was after I changed out some absorb for defense based on all of my research so far (previously was at DEF 12%, Shield 59%, Abosrb 64%).

 

Can someone who has downed most of HM Asatia please list their working percentages for tanking?

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE.

 

Rhino-B

Hi! I'm Cae!

I'm one of the main tanks for Never Tell Us the Odds on The Bastion. Currently we have all 8 man content down (EC NiM 4/4, TFB HM 5/5, etc.). I've done tanking elsewhere in other games, but that honestly doesn't matter here now does it?

First and foremost there was nothing wrong with your old build. It was the build I used for all of the HM content in the game. 12.5% Defense, 59'ish% Shield, 64% absorb is fully capable of doing all the hardmode content in game. That should leave you with roughly 24.5k hp. Completely and totally workable and as far as I was concerned and arguable am, the best setup for a Vanguard in current HM content.

1) Absorb and Defense fight with one another for total stat points in gear. What you pick up in one, you will lose in the other.

2) Shield is off by its lonesome as far as tanking and Vanguards are concerned. It would compete with accuracy if you were a Guardian, but we're not, so all Enhancements on gear will be shield.

3) Shield and Absorb relate to one another on a 1 : 1 basis. If you have 25% Shield, and 50% absorb, and are attacked 100 x's for 100 damage you can expect to absorb 1250 damage. If you have 50% Shield and 25% absorb with the same parameters you can expect to absorb 1250 damage. They relate directly with one another. Hooray!

4) Defense and Shield fight with one another in other ways. Defense (dodge) is rolled first. if you are subject to a melee/ranged attack and don't dodge, the attack hits you. Your shield chance is then rolled. If you shield... Hooray!

Unfortunately what this means is that Every point you place into defense, it hurts your shield and absorb.

15% Defense, and 60% shield does not mean that you will mitigate 75% of attacks. Instead it means you will mitigate 15% + (60% * .85) = 66% of all ranged/melee attacks.

5) Properly specializing up the SS tree leaves you with two pertinent abilities that will affect how you place your points.

a) "Shield Cycler" 2/2 - Increases the shield chance by 2%. In addition, shielding an attack has a 50% chance to generate 1 energy cell. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds.

b) "Static Shield" - Increases the critical chance of Stockstrike and Explosive Surge by 16%. In addtion, shielding an attack has a 50% chance to finish the cooldown on Stockstrike. This effect cannot occur more than once every 4.5 seconds.

Hopefully you have all followed along with those points. My conclusions have always lead me to the fact that though defense pumping at the cost of may give me more mitigation overall, especially in spreadsheets, it actually hurts your character. Do not get me wrong, some defense is absolutely worth it. The extra mitigation vs Lower absorb, lower ammo, lower threat, lower damage absolutely has a balancing point. I do not find it to be anywhere near the much lauded 20%.

I currently run with the following.

Defense: 204 (13.67%)

Shield: 784 (59.42%)

Absorb: 579 (60.37%)

Endurance: 2396 (26,726 HP)

You will notice if you look closely that everything I've said is actually plain in my stats. Shield is roughly equal to the value of Defense and Absorb added together. This may vary for some depending how endurance heavy you choose to go with mods/enhancements.

I do, after pushing through EC NiM, believe in a slightly higher health pool vs total mitigation. When Kephess can hit you for close to 16.5k + 6.8 DoT on you 24k just doesn't cut it anymore. If believe you are in a guild where you are going to be pushing through NiM mode content in the close future my humble suggestion is that whatever you do choose for Absorb and Defense mods, go for the "B" variety. You can thank me with mail later. Doing this change will not hurt you at all in HM progression.

Best of luck with all your endeavours and please feel free to ask any questions that come to your mind.

Ps. Please Vanguards reading this post DO NOT PUT ACCURACY ON YOUR GEAR (tank spec). You gain nothing from it, and whoever told you has no understanding of your class or how the game actually functions.

Hi there

I tanked the world first Dread Guard and world third Kephess the Undying kills on 16-man. My stats with no buffs except ion cell were about 18.5%, 57.5%, 60.85%. With class buffs and a rakata stim (can't remember with exo atm) my health was about 24.9k in that gear. Healer feedback was positive.

There were still a few things I could have done to optimise the ratios but you've said you don't want detail

Thank you Cae & Gideon (sup bro!). VERY insightful and amazing to hear these set-ups from those that know best. I'll be re-posting it on my guild forums. Thank you for taking the time to post.

Rhino-B

Hi! I'm Cae!

 

15% Defense, and 60% shield does not mean that you will mitigate 75% of attacks. Instead it means you will mitigate 15% + (60% * .85) = 66% of all ranged/melee attacks.

 

 

This logic is flawed. First off, you don't take into account that defense will rise more per point than absorb or shield. EDIT: If you are looking at the DR graph, realize the rate of change at 700 shield compared to the rate of change at 400 defense. The curves are closer in slope, and it's a complete dodge

You get so much more from 50 points of defense at the 100-200 range than absorb at the 600-700 range. Also, defense is a complete dodge. So factor in the amount of damage you still would take if you shielded the attack, and you'd find that defense is weighted higher than a shielding.

15%, 60%, 60%

1) 15% chance 100% damage

2) .85 * .6 = 51% chance 60% damage

15% + (51% * 60%) = 45.6% of damage mitigated

now lets up to 20%, 59%, 59%

1) 20% chance 100% damage

2) .80 * .59 = 47.2% chance 59% damage

20% + (47.2% * 59%) = 47.8% damage mitigated

Even if you need to go slightly lower to achieve 20% defense, it will still pay off

MOAR DEFENSE!!

This logic is flawed. First off, you don't take into account that defense will rise more per point than absorb or shield.

It doesn't. See: This is a diminishing return graph!

You get so much more from 50 points of defense at the 100-200 range than absorb at the 600-700 range.

No one is stacking that little defense or that much absorb. And still, the curve is steeper for Absorb than Defense at those levels.

Also, defense is a complete dodge. So factor in the amount of damage you still would take if you shielded the attack, and you'd find that defense is weighted higher than a shielding.

Yes, a complete mitigation does in fact mitigate more than a partial mitigation.

15%, 60%, 60%

1) 15% chance 100% damage

2) .85 * .6 = 51% chance 60% damage

 

15% + (51% * 60%) = 45.6% of damage mitigated

Numbers completely achievable depending on how much you value Endurance in your current content. Very similar to my current numbers.

now lets up to 20%, 59%, 59%

1) 20% chance 100% damage

2) .80 * .59 = 47.2% chance 59% damage

 

20% + (47.2% * 59%) = 47.8% damage mitigated

Where did the magical 5% Defense come from? Both Shield and Absorb have steeper curves than Defense. You cannot trade 2% combined S/A for 5% Defense. It is just a lie. Beyond that only 75% - 80% of attacks are actually defendable. So your (faked) 2.2% difference would be even narrower.

So in summary what do we know? Your reading comprehension = zero. That's okay with the school system of today I can't even blame you for not being able to read. What does slightly bother me though is that when you framed your numbers you used imaginary ones versus ones that function in reality. You see, all the numbers I posted are with ratings, which are hard capped by gear. Yours are just random percentages which are not achieved without "Special math". Never mind the fact that the rest of your statement is just erroneous in general. I don't ever question why newbie Vanguards have such a hard time figuring out what is what when there is just bad information put out everywhere.

You will see some slightly higher mitigations if you push Defense. I noted it in my first post. However you lose effectiveness of your spec. Beyond that the difference in damage is actually very very small. It will be in the area of 1% when you get done with armor, and the fact that not every attack is defendable (on some bosses none). If you do stack to 20% and love your character, good for you, enjoy the game. But my point of view stands, and it is effective.

zzzzz....try not to get butt hurt so bad

15% is about 250 defense. Test out your gear, @ 300 defense I lose 18 points and I lose .47% defense. @60% absorb (568), you take off 41 points and you lose 1.3% absorb. You lose more absorb yes, but you aren't getting full mitigation so it's not worth as much, about 60% worth what the defense is. If you drop ~80 points from both shield and absorb, and put them into defense, you'll get those stats, which leaves you at about ~20% ~58% ~58%

I got nothing to prove to you, I just thought i'd let the world/OP know that your calculations are slightly off because you haven't factored in damage mitigation/avoidance. I'm not telling you how to play, do whatever you want I don't really care.

And remember, it's just a game.

PS: If by spec effectiveness you mean ammo management, that's laughable. Ammo is generated so easily, that 1% of shield is not going to change anything in terms of ammo generation. If you are stuck at no ammo regen, that means you can't manage your ammo to begin with, and your DPS is going to suffer regardless of the tiny bit of shield you took out and put into defense

... @ 300 defense I lose 18 points and I lose .47% defense. @60% absorb (568), you take off 41 points and you lose 1.3% absorb. You lose more absorb yes, but you aren't getting full mitigation so it's not worth as much, about 60% worth what the defense is.

Justcae is best suited to reply to most of what you said, so I'll limit myself to this: if you value absorb at 60% of defence, then multiply that 1.3 by 0.6. What do you get? 0.78, which is still greater than 0.47. So by your own value system, it seems like you're making his point. Even your value system is too vague. The value of absorb is related directly to how much shield you have. Giving a discrete number is simply wrong.

PS: If by spec effectiveness you mean ammo management, that's laughable. Ammo is generated so easily, that 1% of shield is not going to change anything in terms of ammo generation. If you are stuck at no ammo regen, that means you can't manage your ammo to begin with, and your DPS is going to suffer regardless of the tiny bit of shield you took out and put into defense

This also seems misleading, or at least too vague. Comparing his spec to the high-defense one posted prior, he has about 4.2% more shield, not 1%. Furthermore, the difference in procs is a lot larger than that because your defense is rolled before your shield: in the high-defense case only 1-0.2259 = 77.41% of melee/ranged attacks can be shielded at all. Multiplying by the shield chance gives a 42.77% chance to proc on any given hit. In the low-defense build, you have (1-0.1384)*0.5942 = 51.20% chance to proc on a given attack. That's quite a lot more than a 1% difference between the two AMR builds that were linked in this thread! I used the AMR builds because those are provably attainable. Make your own AMR profile and I'll gladly do the same math on it.

Also, it would be possible to keep your ammo full even if you had no regen. You'd just do nothing but auto attack. To say that it's possible is not to say that it's optimal. Also, no one would disagree that if you drop into the bottom regen bracket your DPS will suffer, but it's not even close to the point. If you play with three fingers your DPS will suffer. If your cat suddenly decides to vomit on your keyboard your DPS will suffer. What is relevant is that if you have more ammo to spend, your DPS and threat will increase. The 1% pulled from your digestive terminus would be negligeable. Would 4%? What about 5%? What about the ~9% shown above? What would be the threshold? If you answer that one, I hope you base it on logic rather than made-up numbers.

What we have here are two ideas that exist in tension. Yes, at some point defense rating will become more valuable than shield/absorb rating for pure survivability. However, even at that point it can be worth over-valuing shield somewhat due to the procs that you get from shielding an attack. In doing so, you also raise the relative value of absorb slightly, since the two are directly related. This is a very basic optimization problem. The question is merely one of where you find equilibrium. I have yet to see you make a reasoned argument on those terms for your chosen numbers.

zzzzz....try not to get butt hurt so bad

 

15% is about 250 defense. Test out your gear, @ 300 defense I lose 18 points and I lose .47% defense. @60% absorb (568), you take off 41 points and you lose 1.3% absorb. You lose more absorb yes, but you aren't getting full mitigation so it's not worth as much, about 60% worth what the defense is. If you drop ~80 points from both shield and absorb, and put them into defense, you'll get those stats, which leaves you at about ~20% ~58% ~58%

 

I got nothing to prove to you, I just thought i'd let the world/OP know that your calculations are slightly off because you haven't factored in damage mitigation/avoidance. I'm not telling you how to play, do whatever you want I don't really care.

 

And remember, it's just a game.

 

PS: If by spec effectiveness you mean ammo management, that's laughable. Ammo is generated so easily, that 1% of shield is not going to change anything in terms of ammo generation. If you are stuck at no ammo regen, that means you can't manage your ammo to begin with, and your DPS is going to suffer regardless of the tiny bit of shield you took out and put into defense

I'm trying to understand exactly what makes you believe that you are even qualified to provide advice here and shoot off your illogical trap. See how it was nice of Justcae and _gideon to provide advice based on their knowledge of tanking - as they have both tanked end-game content (Justcae 8man EC NiM and gideon 16 man TFB HM ), both capable of offering advice based on common sense and successful Ops experience. All we know of you is that you are incapable of graph interpretation, reading comprehension, and from what I see (and could be wrong) not very successful Ops experience. But grats on clearing HM denova and working on TFB.

I'm trying to understand exactly what makes you believe that you are even qualified to provide advice here and shoot off your illogical trap. See how it was nice of Justcae and _gideon to provide advice based on their knowledge of tanking - as they have both tanked end-game content (Justcae 8man EC NiM and gideon 16 man TFB HM ), both capable of offering advice based on common sense and successful Ops experience. All we know of you is that you are incapable of graph interpretation, reading comprehension, and from what I see (and could be wrong) not very successful Ops experience. But grats on clearing HM denova and working on TFB.

Sorry if i was vague. I didn't have time early in the morning to actually write out all the stats, and the amount of ammo you get per 1% of shield per every 6 seconds the ability can proc, and based on your reply you aren't really willing to hear it. Jedi Covenant Faction first HM EC actually. And I have a BS in Mathematics and Statistics. I understand the DR graph, as well as the limitations to it.

Justcae is best suited to reply to most of what you said, so I'll limit myself to this: if you value absorb at 60% of defence, then multiply that 1.3 by 0.6. What do you get? 0.78, which is still greater than 0.47. So by your own value system, it seems like you're making his point. THIS IS WRONG BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY CALCULATE 1 POINT OF DEFENSE COMPARED TO 1 POINT OF ABSORB. THE NUMBERS WERE 41 ABS TO 18 DEFEven your value system is too vague. The value of absorb is related directly to how much shield you have. Giving a discrete number is simply wrong.

 

 

 

This also seems misleading, or at least too vague. Comparing his spec to the high-defense one posted prior, he has about 4.2% more shield, not 1%. Furthermore, the difference in procs is a lot larger than that because your defense is rolled before your shield: in the high-defense case only 1-0.2259 = 77.41% of melee/ranged attacks can be shielded at all. Multiplying by the shield chance gives a 42.77% chance to proc on any given hit. In the low-defense build, you have (1-0.1384)*0.5942 = 51.20% chance to proc on a given attack. That's quite a lot more than a 1% difference between the two AMR builds that were linked in this thread! I used the AMR builds because those are provably attainable. Make your own AMR profile and I'll gladly do the same math on it.YOU CAN ONLY PROC EVERY 6 SECONDS, WHICH SEVERELY LIMITS THIS. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS A NON-ISSUE. IF IT WAS EVERY ROLL, YOU WOULD BE CORRECT

 

Also, it would be possible to keep your ammo full even if you had no regen. You'd just do nothing but auto attack. To say that it's possible is not to say that it's optimal. Also, no one would disagree that if you drop into the bottom regen bracket your DPS will suffer, but it's not even close to the point. If you play with three fingers your DPS will suffer. If your cat suddenly decides to vomit on your keyboard your DPS will suffer. What is relevant is that if you have more ammo to spend, your DPS and threat will increase. The 1% pulled from your digestive terminus would be negligeable. Would 4%? What about 5%? What about the ~9% shown above? What would be the threshold? If you answer that one, I hope you base it on logic rather than made-up numbers.THATS DUMB, MY DPS IS 700 IN FULL TANK GEAR BECAUSE I MANAGE MY AMMO WELL. BETWEEN RECHARGE CELLS AND SHIELD CYCLER, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AMMO ITS ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE SPAMMING ION CELL

 

What we have here are two ideas that exist in tension. Yes, at some point defense rating will become more valuable than shield/absorb rating for pure survivability. However, even at that point it can be worth over-valuing shield somewhat due to the procs that you get from shielding an attack. In doing so, you also raise the relative value of absorb slightly, since the two are directly related. This is a very basic optimization problem. The question is merely one of where you find equilibrium. I have yet to see you make a reasoned argument on those terms for your chosen numbers.

The benefits you are describing are overstated because you are limited by the number of procs you can have. Also why the proc relics just are not that great. Also, because you go so high into DR on shield absorb, if you use proc relics it makes them less effective. I'll take the higher defense with less S/A, and get a greater boost from the S/A on-use relic. That's my decision though, play it how you want

Sorry if i was vague. I didn't have time early in the morning to actually write out all the stats, and the amount of ammo you get per 1% of shield per every 6 seconds the ability can proc, and based on your reply you aren't really willing to hear it. Jedi Covenant Faction first HM EC actually. And I have a BS in Mathematics and Statistics. I understand the DR graph, as well as the limitations to it.

Well color me embarrassed! A server first on EC HM? That's impressive...considering a tank (Justcae) with a mix of "just turned lvl 50" blues and a few Columi pieces can tank that without a problem. *Golf Clap*. AND!! a BS in mathematics and stats...well hell. I'm not sure a more qualified person even exists to comment on the forums any longer aside from you. Did they teach you how to interpret graphs with that fancy education of yours?

Well color me embarrassed! A server first on EC HM? That's impressive...considering a tank with a mix of "just turned lvl 50" blues and a few Columi pieces can tank that without a problem. *Golf Clap*. AND!! a BS in mathematics and stats...well hell. I'm not sure a more qualified person even exists to comment on the forums any longer aside from you. Did they teach you how to interpret graphs with that fancy education of yours?

Rep first. Not server.

And I'm the one who doesn't know how to read...SMH

Why are you so nasty?

So according to below, she's nasty because she has no idea about tanking stats, and offers nothing to the conversation because this guy turns out to be a guildmate. Maybe your guild needs to talk to its tank about his stats.

Rep first. Not server.

 

And I'm the one who doesn't know how to read...SMH

You're right - I gave you more credit than was deserved. Thank you for calling me on that. Perhaps now you can move on to downing the more recent content.

As for the "Why are you so nasty?" comment that was added in after..

- This is me being nice. You are training the next generation of vanguards to be like you. As a healer..I find this irritating because I'm going to be stuck healing some tank that can function well on paper but not actually in an Ops.

THIS IS WRONG BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY CALCULATE 1 POINT OF DEFENSE COMPARED TO 1 POINT OF ABSORB. THE NUMBERS WERE 41 ABS TO 18 DEF

Those are the numbers that you chose for your prior argument.

YOU CAN ONLY PROC EVERY 6 SECONDS, WHICH SEVERELY LIMITS THIS. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS A NON-ISSUE. IF IT WAS EVERY ROLL, YOU WOULD BE CORRECT

No, if there were no rate limit I would be more correct. The advantage that I outlined holds for all time not in the internal cooldown. Since you felt compelled to list your academic achievements, let's calculate the expected rate of proc'ing for each build. When not on cooldown we have a bernoulli sequence. The number of trials before a success is a geometric distribuation; expectation = 1/p. For the high defense build that is 2.34. For the high shield build, we get 1.95. Assume one hit per GCD and add on the internal cooldown (which you, as a true master of mathemetics certainly knows is independant and can be added directly) and we get an expected proc rate of 9.51 vs 8.93. That's still roughly a 5% advantage. (Variance on the two builds is 3.13 for high-defense and 1.86 so it's also clear which is more consistent over a shorter time frame).

The one hit per GCD assumption is obviously questionable. In an AOE tanking situation it's obviously terrible and in that case you're right that the proc rate becomes negligable. However, in a boss tanking situtation, it's not unlikely that the hit rate is actually less than one per GCD. In that case the advantage of the shield build becomes slightly higher.

THATS DUMB, MY DPS IS 700 IN FULL TANK GEAR BECAUSE I MANAGE MY AMMO WELL. BETWEEN RECHARGE CELLS AND SHIELD CYCLER, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AMMO ITS ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE SPAMMING ION CELL

Given your esteemed mathematical background, surely you understand how little your specific DPS is relevant. With more ammo you could do more. The question is one of optimization. More specifically, to what degree is it worth over-valuing shield to increase proc chance. When you progress further than EC you will start to encounter DPS like my sentinel who break 2k sustained. At that point, 700 doesn't look all that big. Taunt boosting obviously helps, but there are also fights where you need your taunts at specific points (nightmare-mode Firebrand/Stormcaller says hi) as well as fights where you can't always be targeted on the same mob as the DPS (nightmare-mode Vorgath I see you).

Thus far you have been given specific builds, real-world numbers, logic, and mathematical argument. You have responded with ANGRY RED CAPS STATEMENTS THAT ARE VAGUE AND DO NOT FORM A COHESIVE ARGUMENT. You'll have to be a lot more specific than that.

In truth, the hard-mode EC tier of content does not require tight optimization. The myriad of opinions in this thread is proof enough of that. I remember doing HM EC with a tank in Tionese gear and doing just fine (well before we over-geared it in 63 mods). With that in mind, a lot comes down to personal preference because the content is actually pretty forgiving as long as you understand the strategy.

This debate has really turned into a nightmare-mode debate. Only at that point does this degree of min/max-ing really become important. Until you've done those fights (I'm 4/4 NiM EC), it's hard to have an informed opinion on it.

Those are the numbers that you chose for your prior argument.

 

Just because i chose the numbers, doesn't make your calculations right. The point of choosing the numbers was to do simple division and find how much each point was worth at that level. Guess you weren't even up to that task

 

No, if there were no rate limit I would be more correct. The advantage that I outlined holds for all time not in the internal cooldown. Since you felt compelled to list your academic achievements, let's calculate the expected rate of proc'ing for each build. When not on cooldown we have a bernoulli sequence. The number of trials before a success is a geometric distribuation; expectation = 1/p. For the high defense build that is 2.34. For the high shield build, we get 1.95. Assume one hit per GCD and add on the internal cooldown (which you, as a true master of mathemetics certainly knows is independant and can be added directly) and we get an expected proc rate of 9.51 vs 8.93. That's still roughly a 5% advantage. OK, so I am the one who pull numbers out of the air? And 5% advantage is misleading, as expected proc rate is the difference of half a second? OK, I guess I'll take it for what you say it is. Let's remember this is an offensive bonus, so weigh it against defensive improvements(Variance on the two builds is 3.13 for high-defense and 1.86 so it's also clear which is more consistent over a shorter time frame).

 

The one hit per GCD assumption is obviously questionable. In an AOE tanking situation it's obviously terrible and in that case you're right that the proc rate becomes negligable. However, in a boss tanking situtation, it's not unlikely that the hit rate is actually less than one per GCD. In that case the advantage of the shield build becomes slightly higher.On a boss whose rate is less than 1 hit per CD, you aren't really concerned about your ammo proc as opposed to the actual odds you have of mitigating that damage

 

 

Given your esteemed mathematical background, surely you understand how little your specific DPS is relevant. With more ammo you could do more. The question is one of optimization. More specifically, to what degree is it worth over-valuing shield to increase proc chance. When you progress further than EC you will start to encounter DPS like my sentinel who break 2k sustained. At that point, 700 doesn't look all that big. Taunt boosting obviously helps, but there are also fights where you need your taunts at specific points (nightmare-mode Firebrand/Stormcaller says hi) as well as fights where you can't always be targeted on the same mob as the DPS (nightmare-mode Vorgath I see you).

 

I've progressed farther than EC HM guys...5/5 on TFB and 2/4 NM EC only because we haven't had the chance to do it. DPS is relevent because you had assumed I auto-attacked the entire fight. Optimization comes from not just optimizing a particular offensive ability

 

Thus far you have been given specific builds, real-world numbers, logic, and mathematical argument. You have responded with ANGRY RED CAPS STATEMENTS THAT ARE VAGUE AND DO NOT FORM A COHESIVE ARGUMENT. You'll have to be a lot more specific than that.

Only a moron thinks caps are the same as anger

 

In truth, the hard-mode EC tier of content does not require tight optimization. The myriad of opinions in this thread is proof enough of that. I remember doing HM EC with a tank in Tionese gear and doing just fine (well before we over-geared it in 63 mods). With that in mind, a lot comes down to personal preference because the content is actually pretty forgiving as long as you understand the strategy.

 

EC HM did require optimization when everyone was wearing rakata gear with no augments. Maybe you don't remember those days

 

This debate has really turned into a nightmare-mode debate. Only at that point does this degree of min/max-ing really become important. Until you've done those fights (I'm 4/4 NiM EC), it's hard to have an informed opinion on it.

You asked me for my "credentials" so I gave them.

So you want numbers? I didn't have time in the morning but I have some now:

DEFENSE: 16.20%

SHIELD: 58.80%

ABSORB: 60.3%

Taking off 18 points of defense leaves me at 15.73%, a .47% loss

Taking off 18 points of shield leaves me at 58.36%, a .44% loss

Now, consider the damage:

CASE 1: HIGH SHIELD

15.73% DEF

58.36% SHIELD

Roll 1 15.73% chance of 100% DR

Roll 2 58.80% chance of 60.3% DR

51.1864% of damage reduced/mitigated

CASE 2: HIGH DEFENSE

16.20% DEF

58.36% SHIELD

Roll 1 16.20% chance of 100% DR

Roll 2 58.36% chance of 60.3% DR

51.3911 % of damage reduced/mitigated

So this calculation is for SHIELD, which will cause your cycler to proc less often. I'll take the DR boost, use the proc relic(which will add to the shield percentage more now that the stat is slightly lower).

Let's do the same calculation with a mix shield/absorb

Absorb loss is .58% per 18 points of absorb

CASE 1A: HIGH ABSORB/SHIELD

15.73% DEF

60.03% ABSORB

58.80% SHIELD

Roll 1 15.73% chance at 100% DR

Roll 2 58.80% chance at 60.3% DR

Same as before - 51.1864% DR

CASE 2A: HIGH DEFENSE

16.20% DEF

59.74% ABSORB

58.58% SHIELD

(calculated as just half, skewing the results in your favor slightly)

51.1956% DR

Not to mention using the proc relic now will raise your S/A by a larger percentage than in the high S/A build.

OK, so DR is clearly higher. Now look at the side effects, less shield cycler proc. OK, but the real impact of that is very small, as RECHARGE CELLS and RESERVE POWERCELL are generally free ammo savers. If a boss is only hitting 1/GCD, then it's more important that you dodge/shield that attack then trying to catch up on ammo.

Just because i chose the numbers, doesn't make your calculations right. The point of choosing the numbers was to do simple division and find how much each point was worth at that level. Guess you weren't even up to that task

It was your decision to use uneven numbers for each stat.

I've progressed farther than EC HM guys...5/5 on TFB and 2/4 NM EC only because we haven't had the chance to do it. DPS is relevent because you had assumed I auto-attacked the entire fight. Optimization comes from not just optimizing a particular offensive ability

I didn't assume you auto-attacked the entire fight. I outlined an extreme edge case to make my argument as clear as possible. It obviously wasn't clear enough for you to understand though. The point is that you can keep your ammo up at any regen level. It just changes DPS. You also clearly missed the point about optimization. This has turned into a debate about balancing trivial changes to survivability against trivial changes to DPS.

Only a moron thinks caps = anger

Call me a moron and I'll call you angry

EC HM did require optimization when everyone was wearing rakata gear with no augments. Maybe you don't remember those days

Ok, so EC HM required optimization for you back then. It didn't really require much for us. What inference can be drawn from that....

On another note, thank you for finally posting your stats. Now here's something rather funny: your stats are closer to Justcae's than they are to the high defense build that I've been arguing against! The truth of the matter is that it is laughable to debate at this length over such a difference. Of course, I had no idea since only you knew your stats. If you really get this bent about ~13% vs ~16% defense, then I fear for you. You are comparing two different amounts of defense (~15 vs ~16) that hadn't even been brought up in the thread. Were the voices in your head so bothersome to you that you had to start debating your own two numbers that hadn't even been discussed?

Your build is good. So is Justcae's. Did you somehow miss the fact that the high-defense AMR profile from earlier had 22% defense? That is what I find somewhat objectionable.

It's hilarious that you were carrying on an internal debate over 15 vs 16 when everyone else was debating 14 vs 22.....

That really just happened

it's hilarious that you were carrying on an internal debate over 15 vs 16 when everyone else was debating 14 vs 22.....

 

That really just happened

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Not going to bother with quotes throughout this so just bear with me. It's been a long day.

1) Original post stated that you do in fact gain more avoidance by raising your defense, I found the balance to be less than the 20% for personal build reasons, and outlined what I was seeing in my own experience.

2) The original rebuttal used numbers that were in point of fact a lie. Lies by their very nature mislead people. As this was a "Help me" thread, it was a stupid post. Clearly 15/60/60, would have less mitigation than 20/59/59. They however are not two sets with the same ability points. Thus misleading, and just a wrong statement in general.

3) Any build wherein you are around 15/60/60 plus or minus a few percent either way you are using the balanced defense build. My defense is a percent and a half lower because I carry 2.5k more health due to Kephess burst in NiM. However my build is still in the "Balanced" category. Balanced being "I didn't put mitigation before all else". Your posts argued against the balanced viewpoint, yet in your own raiding experience you use it. Slightly perplexing.

4) When you do minor tweaks to the balanced build, the differing results are in themselves, minor. Yay! Logic.

5) All the in depth analysis of Def vs S/A by percentages are off as well. No one is taking into account the 8% stack, or if you are using it the Proc relic the numbers narrow further. Strictly a logical observation, no need to get number heavy.

6) I reaffirm my statement that a balanced build that favours S/A over Defense stacking is a great playstyle and one that I've used effectively in the game. One that I would absolutely, and do recommend to Vanguards looking to progress through content.

If you cannot follow the above points and their supporting points I cannot help you, nor do I have the ability to convince you of any change in your opinion. I believe I hear drunk toddlers in a Dryer somewhere, I'll leave it at that.