"Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor"- Count Dooku, Master of Makashi

So Form I was interesting. Now we move on to the second form of Makashi. Cin Drallig continues his recording in the Great Holocron...

Form II, also called Makashi, represents the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. It evolved during an era when battles between Jedi and Dark Jedi had become expected, if not routine, and may have produced the greatest dueling masters the galaxy had ever seen. Masters of Form II developed unique offenses and defenses, and trained studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged.

Following the Battle of Ruusan, Form II became an archaism, for there were few situations in which Jedi fought lightsaber wielding enemies. However, the former Jedi learner Aurra Sing resurfaced more than a decade ago as a bounty hunter and assassin, and has developed a reputation for taking lightsabers as trophies from her Jedi victims. Furthermore, it is now nearly a year since Obi-Wan Kenobi slew the Sith Lord who killed Qui-Gon at the Battle of Naboo, and some Jedi Masters have suggested that the Order reexamine the requirements of Form II. Other Masters have countered that such confrontations will remain exceedingly rare so long as the Jedi remain mindful of the Force and the Sith limit their numbers to two. As long as Aurra Sing and any Sith Lords remain at large, it is the opinion of this instructor that the study of Form II should not be dismissed as impractical.

So what do we know of the Makashi form? We know that any Jedi who takes the time to master this form becomes a force to be reckoned with. The form is the Jedi Order's answer to the Sith cause and can create some of the most impressive lightsaber duelists in the galaxy. This is evident in some of its most recent masters. Jedi like Master Yoda, Mace Windu and the Sith Lord Dooku are some of the greatest duelists in the galaxy.

Masters of Makashi can best many other forms, including the Soresu form. Makashi users can dominate those who use Soresu and Shii-Cho without much effort. This is evident when Count Dooku defeated Obi-Wan Kenobi with relative ease on Geonosis and later on the Invisible Hand. Obi-Wan Kenobi's mastery of the Soresu form was no match for the skills of Count Dooku.

But Makashi also has weaknesses. Makashi is one of the most dominant forms, but it can be bested. Masters of the Ataru form have the advantage of agility over users of Makashi. As seen when Master Yoda bested Dooku in a Lightsaber duel on Geonosis. While Dooku fled the battle, had he stayed Yoda would have won the battle. Masters of the Djem So form can best users of Makashi through the heavy strikes that can make the defenses of Makashi crumble. This is seen when Anakin Skywalker bested Count Dooku onboard the Invisible Hand.

In the end, masters of Makashi become some of the greatest Lightsaber duelists in the galaxy.

Notable Masters of Makashi: Count Dooku

I hope you all found this an interesting read. Next thread is Soresu.

Link to Shii-Cho for those who missed it: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=544477

If you have a topic you would like to see in the future, post them below or send me a message.

I'm enjoying these. Keep it up. I'm really looking forward to the Soresu article. Soresu has always been my favorite form. I've always enjoyed the notion of self defensing your opponent to death.

Well thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying these threads.

No, Obi Wan was Ataru in EP II and in EP III's novel it said clearly that Dooku knew every weakness of Ataru.

He lost to Yoda in EP II mostly because Yoda was too quick for him to catch up and he already spent energy to take down Anakin and Obi Wan.

This is a good thread but I am going to disagree with you on the fact that Makashi can beat Soresu users easy. The reason why is because Count dooku may have beaten Obi-wan in attack of the clones with a lightsaber but in revenge of the sith he was forced to use the force to stop him. Not with a lightsaber. So I don't think Makashi is a counter to Soresu.

Dooku still can beat Obi Wan or Anakin if it's 1 on 1, but 2 of them combined well and in the novel, Sidious taught Anakin to use the fury as his weapon.

No, Obi Wan was Ataru in EP II and in EP III's novel it said clearly that Dooku knew every weakness of Ataru.

 

He lost to Yoda in EP II mostly because Yoda was too quick for him to catch up and he already spent energy to take down Anakin and Obi Wan.

Obi-Wan switched to Soresu after episode 1.

This is a good thread but I am going to disagree with you on the fact that Makashi can beat Soresu users easy. The reason why is because Count dooku may have beaten Obi-wan in attack of the clones with a lightsaber but in revenge of the sith he was forced to use the force to stop him. Not with a lightsaber. So I don't think Makashi is a counter to Soresu.

In the long run, Soresu will beat Makashi. That's what Soresu is designed to do in lightsaber combat. Makashi users, if they press the attack, can overwhelm Soresu. But in the long run, Soresu wins. I will discuss Soresu in the next thread.

I believe in the novel, Obi-Wan and Anakin's combined attacks overwhemled Dooku, but he adapted his tactics to counter it.

Dooku still can beat Obi Wan or Anakin if it's 1 on 1, but 2 of them combined well and in the novel, Sidious taught Anakin to use the fury as his weapon.

This is true. While Obi-Wan could outlast Dooku in a duel, Dooku could overwhelm Kenobi if he used Makashi in the right way. Having mastered Makashi to its highest levels, Dooku would most likely be able to do so.

In the long run, Soresu will beat Makashi. That's what Soresu is designed to do in lightsaber combat. Makashi users, if they press the attack, can overwhelm Soresu. But in the long run, Soresu wins. I will discuss Soresu in the next thread.

 

I believe in the novel, Obi-Wan and Anakin's combined attacks overwhemled Dooku, but he adapted his tactics to counter it.

I guess that is true though I haven't seen Makashi as a true counter to Soresu.

I guess that is true though I haven't seen Makashi as a true counter to Soresu.

Not necessarily. Makashi can perform well against Soresu in the short term. Sort of like a bunker siege. Soresu is like a steel bunker and Makashi is a wave of missiles. If the Soresu user can withstand the 'wave of missiles' that Makashi users bring to bear, they can most likely outlast Makashi duelists. This also relies on a duelists use of the Force. In the example you mentioned, Dooku defeats Obi-Wan with the Force. Yes he does. Now in a straight up duel, a Makashi user uses the Force aggressively in battle, while Soresu uses the Force to keep their defenses up. They use it to keep themselves rejuvinated. That's one of the reasons Soresu is so effective, defensively.

Long story short. Makashi can perform well against Soresu in the short term, but once the duel gets dragged out Soresu will eventually win. Not guaranteed, but a solid chance.

Not necessarily. Makashi can perform well against Soresu in the short term. Sort of like a bunker siege. Soresu is like a steel bunker and Makashi is a wave of missiles. If the Soresu user can withstand the 'wave of missiles' that Makashi users bring to bear, they can most likely outlast Makashi duelists. This also relies on a duelists use of the Force. In the example you mentioned, Dooku defeats Obi-Wan with the Force. Yes he does. Now in a straight up duel, a Makashi user uses the Force aggressively in battle, while Soresu uses the Force to keep their defenses up. They use it to keep themselves rejuvinated. That's one of the reasons Soresu is so effective, defensively.

 

Long story short. Makashi can perform well against Soresu in the short term, but once the duel gets dragged out Soresu will eventually win. Not guaranteed, but a solid chance.

Good point.

Obi-Wan switched to Soresu after episode 1.

No, even in EP III Dooku still expected Obi Wan to use Ataru and was surprised when he discovered the truth, so clearly he used Ataru in Soresu.

Of course Makashi is good against Soresu, but not bad against Dejm So.

No, even in EP III Dooku still expected Obi Wan to use Ataru and was surprised when he discovered the truth, so clearly he used Ataru in Soresu.

 

Of course Makashi is good against Soresu, but not bad against Dejm So.

Makashi is an all-around good form. It was designed to for lightsaber combat while the others were meant for fighting blaster wielding enemies. Makashi can beat many forms, but can also lose to these forms. Makashi can beat Soresu, just as it can lose to Soresu. Makashi can beat Djem So, but it can also lose to Djem So. It comes down to the level of mastery the duelists have with these forms.

Say a master of Djem So comes up against a master of Makashi. The Makashi master has the advantage of being able to maneuver quickly around the Djem So master, but the Djem So master can utilize the heavy strikes and strength of that form to wear down the Makashi masters defenses. But Makashi also has a main flaw. There is no real strength in its strikes. The form focuses heavily on flourishes and redirecting attacks to create holes in the enemy's defense. This is why Djem So has the upper hand, and why Soresu can out last Makashi.

Makashi can beat these forms, but can also lose to them.

I look at it this way, Makashi is like fencing with a Rapier. Flourishing and parrying work.

Soresu is like fighting with a Broadsword defensively. Djem So, is like hacking somebody to death with said broadsword with powerful sweeping strikes that if you get hit by them, well it might just snap said rapier.

just my two credits on that look.

I look at it this way, Makashi is like fencing with a Rapier. Flourishing and parrying work.

 

Soresu is like fighting with a Broadsword defensively. Djem So, is like hacking somebody to death with said broadsword with powerful sweeping strikes that if you get hit by them, well it might just snap said rapier.

 

just my two credits on that look.

That's actually an astute (that means good, right? lol) analysis. Count Dooku especially preferred a rapier fencing style to Lightsaber combat. He preferred finesse over strength. It's one of the things that made his such a great duelist. He could maneuver very well and compensate for Makashi's weakness to multiple opponents.

Great read, cant wait for the ataru thread, coming "soon"? lol

Yes, Ataru is coming soon. For those of you living in the U.S. Soresu will be coming out this evening. Ataru will be tomorrow. One form every day.

very interesting, from how Dooku uses it, it seems very formal and ceremonial. Not very aggresive and more about exposing the enemy like you said, it kind of reminds me of the fighting style in pirate movies and three musketeers etc. (i forget what the swords called)

Oh and could you put a link to the other threads in your future posts, just so its easier to navigate between them.

very interesting, from how Dooku uses it, it seems very formal and ceremonial. Not very aggresive and more about exposing the enemy like you said, it kind of reminds me of the fighting style in pirate movies and three musketeers etc. (i forget what the swords called)

 

Oh and could you put a link to the other threads in your future posts, just so its easier to navigate between them.

Makashi can be aggressive in the way Ventress uses it, or more focused on finesse like how Count Dooku uses it. You can tell that both have their advantages.

I will edit the OP and put the link to Shii-Cho in there.

The swords are called rapiers, by the way.

Makashi can be aggressive in the way Ventress uses it, or more focused on finesse like how Count Dooku uses it. You can tell that both have their advantages.

Oh yes I forgot Ventress used Makashi, her style seems a lot more aggressive.

You should also do a single thread for Grievous's lightsaber style, where in Drallig's holocron does it talk about the twirling Catherine wheel of death move?

Oh yes I forgot Ventress used Makashi, her style seems a lot more aggressive.

 

You should also do a single thread for Grievous's lightsaber style, where in Drallig's holocron does it talk about the twirling Catherine wheel of death move?

Unfortunately, Cin Drallig never had the chance to document the fighting style of General Grievous. I suspect he would have discussed General Grievous, or someone else would have, sometime after the war. Things didn't go as planned, apparently.

One of the reasons Ventress is able to do so well against Jedi is due to her use of Makashi. She has defeated Kit Fisto in battle with moderate difficulty, and he's a master of the Shii-Cho. But Shii-Cho is almost no match for Makashi.

EDIT: I do plan on discussing Grievous' fighting style in a later thread as he was a proficient user of the seven lightsaber forms.

EDIT: I do plan on discussing Grievous' fighting style in a later thread as he was a proficient user of the seven lightsaber forms.

I look forward to it!

I look forward to it!

It's going to be difficult because Grievous' fighting style is difficult to pin down. I think what I am going to do is have a thread discussing the Jedi who have mastered each of the Lightsaber forms. Sort of like a review. And Grievous would make it into that category as he is quite proficient in each form.

Good thread

I somewhat disagree with the analysis of Makashi vs Soresu (Where I do think that Makashi has a distinct advantage) but seeing as this is an informative thread...... I'm not going to derail it with one of my usual long debates....