That really really depends on your definition of an ace pilot. As far as I'm concerned the only ace I've met on Harbinger was Willie. Mind you that was a long while ago and things could have changed dramatically, but the rest of the people I've met got crushed under pressure whereas Willie didn't.

 

I think a few weeks ago I put it as "You're good if you can go against an 8 man pre-made virtually solo and still do well for yourself. (Not necessarily winning the game, not having a high kdr, just having a game presence.) Which you'd be surprised how few people actually do because they are too concerned about how many times they die to actually have a game presence, or they don't cap any nodes because they're scared of mines, again not having a game presence, and they forget who the important targets are because they see some name that's a big deal to them and think that if they kill that guy the whole enemy team will crumble (spoilers it doesn't).

 

 

 

This difference in perspective primarily has to do with the number of pilots who don't know even the most basic things. A lot of the pilots who you might say are good are pilots who have the knowledge to make themselves better than the people who don't know things. (Which is a lot of the population.) but they don't have the experience or skills a lot of the time that in any other game would make the difference between good and average or great and average. It's just the sheer quantity of absolutely positively horrible pilots that will trick you into thinking "Yup, that guys good. His numbers are high." when really he just knows enough to farm, he doesn't have the tools in his mental arsenal to go up against an actually good pilot.

 

If you want really really want a numbers example I figure if you're a scout/gunship and you can get over 200 DPS in a fringe match you're probably good because that means that the combination of your skill, your knowledge helped you to really take advantage of the fringe case. But if you have a similar fringe case and you're not THAT skilled but your knowledgeable, you could probably easily get 150 DPS+ in said fringe case.

 

In a strike fighter it's not about your dps but about how fast you can clear a node because ion/heavy is the fastest way to clear bombers and turrets in the game as far as I'm concerned, your time in between nodes is really slow and your time to bear is slow so you really can't use the same numbers that scouts/gunships do.

 

 

As far as bombers go, across the 8 servers I've been to the only good one I have EVER seen is Drakkolich.

 

People have previously said that there are tiers of aces and I think that that is partially true, the issue with it is that there's no real way at this moment to quantify, or give yourself points and say "this is what tier I'm in", especially considering the difference in styles of flights between players.

Those high deflection shots are what make the difference between what I call a good pilot and an average pilot. It's really easy to get high numbers/kill pressured targets when you have no pressure yourself., when good pilots meet it's usually the deflection shots that decide the conflict.

When I said high deflection shots I literally meant shots taken far from center. And it's not skill that decides if those hit, it's RNG. I agree that playing well when pressured is the prime indicator of player skill. What I'm talking about is something entirely different. Accuracy numbers can be a bit misleading depending on player ship and style. Another great example of this - I shoot around 75% accuracy with the Quarrel but only about 65% with the Condor. This is because I am doing a lot less running and a lot more firing of BLC with the Condor. There are times when the target is 4400m away and at high deflection and it makes sense to take the shot. Will the shot hit? Probably not, but I'm still going to take that shot. What if the other team has a bunch of scouts running TT max evasion, DF, and running interference? Your accuracy will be low, but you should still be taking the same amount of shots. In fact, I would likely only be taking quarter charge shots against running interference, so my shot total may even increase.

I also don't agree with what you're saying about DPS numbers being the most important sign of a good player/ace. There are plenty of aces that don't worry about numbers, and instead focus on winning. I consider you the most skilled scout I have played against and your numbers prove that. However, if you look at a player like Drakolich - his scout numbers usually aren't above 100 DPS because he's providing peels for his gunships, he's holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, and he's focusing the other team's best players while mostly ignoring the unthreatening ones.

Willie's pretty good. Part of what makes him so dangerous is people don't notice Myxon out at 15km

I'm not a fan of playing "who is this good" publicly, because it's pretty dramatic. But I don't normally (ever?) see Willie and his team on the forums, so I'll speak up here.

Willie and his team are more than pretty good, and Willie alone is more than pretty good. He has very excellent aim and plays a heavy three-space build (power dive, rocket pods, burst) extremely well. He plays team support, swapping to those who pressure his gunships, and he doesn't chase when it isn't correct to do so, or play like a rager. What I think is most interesting is just how hard it is to get a misplay out of him.

Elaborating on the "three space" build- when Wille approaches a node, he does so based on the existing mines, instead of defaulting to a "template approach" and just trying to kill mines on the way in. His positioning is quite exact- the are certainly other battle scouts that skilled, but you don't need to be that good at it to be universally considered an ace.

Anyway, enough of that.

Tom's flippant comment about there not normally being six good pilots on a server at once is maybe a bit of a bait and switch, but it's still a solid point- OP has probably not fought a bunch of good pilots at once, and the overall point that he likely doesn't even know what he is complaining about, has a lot of merit.

The OP is just ignorant to the real problem at hand.

Correct. Like many guys who play a few times and then determine that the problem is the game, he doesn't even know what the right thing to complain about is.

The actual thing to complain about is that you need to play enough to master a ship several times over to have the level of skill required to be close to where your personal best is, and even that doesn't give you the experience you need to play with a team. Complaining about gear and matchmaking isn't even in the right ballpark.

The complaints about a lack of a pve way to learn anything are completely sound, of course- we've echoed these a lot around here- but the post wasn't titled that.

Like a lot of posts that really get my goat, it's all about pretending that an almost entirely freshfaced opinion is literal fact. Apparently, the people playing the game since launch are hurting it by playing the game since launch. Give me a break!

When I said high deflection shots I literally meant shots taken far from center. And it's not skill that decides if those hit, it's RNG.

I am mostly with Siraka on this one- accuracy can matter less depending on the role and the build. If you have a chance to take a shot at the edge of the circle, it can, depending, be totally correct to do so, even with a 10% chance of your shot landing. Because not taking it is 0%. Accuracy is still a good guide, but I wouldn't go with Tom's strict numbers on that.

The flipside here is: have you seen Tom play? Missed shots are bad for him because he's almost always on a target. The opportunity cost for a high deflection shot is real with that playstyle, and furthermore, he's normally seeking a target he can line up enough to kill or force off of useful positioning, at which point he can acquire a new target or chase. For a scout running Tom's role, his accuracy statements are correct- but I just don't think that's every scout.

But vaguely more on topic question- anyone here think OP would fall into this argument at all? You think he'd be at like 35% accuracy and talking about high deflection shots, or do you think he'd be vastly lower and shooting at out of range targets regularly, as newer players do with observable regularity?

Tomm you changed from "good" pilot to "ace" mid debate. Moving the bar is poor form.

The previous post was talking about aces. I switched the bar because of his change in terminology.

However, if you look at a player like Drakolich - his scout numbers usually aren't above 100 DPS because he's providing peels for his gunships, he's holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, and he's focusing the other team's best players while mostly ignoring the unthreatening ones.

That's more to do with the fact that Verain can be a princess sometimes when asking for peels

Also don't assume that high numbers strictly come from focussing on unthreatening teammates. One of my posted records actually has me killing Scrab everytime he spawns in it. Killing those unthreatening ones does't very often take much thought so you can really call it focussing.

As for holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, he and I have agreed to disagree on the validity of that play. But I really wouldn't say drakkolich should be known for his scout play, he's at his best when he's in a bomber by far.

As for taking shots that are literally at the fringe of deflection, it's not your aim thats at fault there its your ship positioning. You very rarely are in a position that that RNG can even come into effect if you're flying correctly in a quads/pods or burst/pods scout, even in a burst cluster scout to a certain extent.. If you find yourself doing that often, that is a point that you can improve in your flying. The very fact that you're saying "accuracy doesn't really matter because I'm taking a lot of deflection shots." to me sounds like you're just not really doing it right.

What I was previously talking about is getting the enemy pilot into a position where they have to take said deflection shots.

Verain says I'm being strict on this, and he's told me this before over voice, and I largely agree that I am being strict, but I think there's something to be said about the term good or great or ace or whatever you want to call it. If you have a lot of parts of your play that you can improve, then you are not an image that people can use to look up to as what they want to become and if people are then they are doing a disservice to themselves because they are copying mistakes. It's really hard sometimes to determine what somebody who's better than you is doing that is bad or good because you don't know all the reasons behind it so if you're trying to become better you might just largely copy them, and of course a lot of the time people that far behind you are unable to even figure out what it is that you're doing that is so different from them.

As for my point being a bit of a bait and switch, yeah maybe a little bit. I still think I can probably count pilots that I think to be good on 2 or 3 hands at the most. Odds of finding those pilots on one server in such concentration is pretty rare.

I realize I'm being elitist, call it what you want. It's just that when the vast majority of the population, even pilots who think that they're good and are doing well for themselves are making such simple mistakes in their play it's hard not to be a little elitist about it.

That's more to do with the fact that Verain can be a princess sometimes when asking for peels

 

Also don't assume that high numbers strictly come from focussing on unthreatening teammates. [

I never said that your numbers come from focusing unthreatening players. From what I've seen you attack the closest player without bias.

Verain is hardly a princess when asking for peels. He is one of the hardest gunships to kill, but if he doesn't get a peel then he can't really do his job. If your team's top gunship is constantly on the move, your team's chances to win are severely decreased. But you already know all of this.

As for holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, he and I have agreed to disagree on the validity of that play. But I really wouldn't say drakkolich should be known for his scout play, he's at his best when he's in a bomber by far.

I certainly think Drak should be known for his scout play. When I'm playing gunship and he's on my team, I can usually fire at will. He often peels for me before I even ask for it. Helping out his teammates hurts his DPS but it raises mine considerably. The result? Higher team DPS, more wins. It's a team game and things like holding the nodes and supporting teammates increases the chances of a win for the team. Sure, it will affect your stat sheet at the end of the game, but this isn't a single player game. To argue that holding a node green/blue is a bad call is simply ludicrous and I don't think you'll find anyone that agrees with your opinion on that.

The very fact that you're saying "accuracy doesn't really matter because I'm taking a lot of deflection shots." to me sounds like you're just not really doing it right.

Not doing it right or doing it differently? Like I said before, it appears as though you attack the closest target without bias. If that ship runs away it seems like you rarely give chase. Instead, you will find the next closest target and attack him. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now what if you are in a game and you want to kill or at least tie up a high priority target such as Verain's gunship? Are you going to shoot him a few times and then swap to someone else? Sometimes that can be the right call, but sometimes it's the right call to chase him. Are you going to be able to perfectly center him at the perfect distance with every shot you take? Not unless he makes a mistake. You might get a few centered shots when he pops DF and tries to shoot you.

To say that you are out of position unless you are taking perfectly centered shots is a disservice to pilots that know how to fly evasively.

Verain says I'm being strict on this, and he's told me this before over voice, and I largely agree that I am being strict, but I think there's something to be said about the term good or great or ace or whatever you want to call it. If you have a lot of parts of your play that you can improve, then you are not an image that people can use to look up to as what they want to become and if people are then they are doing a disservice to themselves because they are copying mistakes. It's really hard sometimes to determine what somebody who's better than you is doing that is bad or good because you don't know all the reasons behind it so if you're trying to become better you might just largely copy them, and of course a lot of the time people that far behind you are unable to even figure out what it is that you're doing that is so different from them.

It's a difference of opinion. I think you're the best solo play scout pilot in the world but does that make you more of an Ace than Drak? Probably not, because having Drak on my team means the team has a higher chance of winning. He can play all 4 ships (Battlescout, Gunship, Minebomber, Dronebomber) extremely well and will swap to whatever is necessary to win the game. Does he have better stats than you? No, but that's beside the point. All that matters is the team winning or losing.

Let's start a hypothetical scenario here. Let's say I'm the 50th best Scout pilot in the game. Of those 50 Scout pilots, let's say I'm the only good gunship and bomber pilot (again hypothetical). Who is the BEST pilot? Sometimes it will be those 49 other pilots, but sometimes it will be me. There are certain situations where it is the wrong call to use a scout, and I would be able to help my team out a lot more by picking the correct ship for the meta.

I realize I'm being elitist, call it what you want. It's just that when the vast majority of the population, even pilots who think that they're good and are doing well for themselves are making such simple mistakes in their play it's hard not to be a little elitist about it.

It's not so much as being elitist as it is that you seem to be missing the point that this is a team game and the stat sheet isn't as super important as you make it out to be.

Another important point to make is that oftentimes in Domination mode, players are forced into making mistakes when the odds are heavily stacked against them (i.e. uneven teams). If they haven't given up hope and are still trying to win the game, they don't have the luxury of playing efficiently. If they wanted a good DPS and high accuracy they could just ignore the nodes and fight off the nodes and avoid these simple mistakes. But then that would decrease their chance of winning to 0%.

That's more to do with the fact that Verain can be a princess sometimes when asking for peels

 

Also don't assume that high numbers strictly come from focussing on unthreatening teammates. One of my posted records actually has me killing Scrab everytime he spawns in it. Killing those unthreatening ones does't very often take much thought so you can really call it focussing.

 

As for holding nodes green/blue until his bomber can return to the node, he and I have agreed to disagree on the validity of that play. But I really wouldn't say drakkolich should be known for his scout play, he's at his best when he's in a bomber by far.

 

 

As for taking shots that are literally at the fringe of deflection, it's not your aim thats at fault there its your ship positioning. You very rarely are in a position that that RNG can even come into effect if you're flying correctly in a quads/pods or burst/pods scout, even in a burst cluster scout to a certain extent.. If you find yourself doing that often, that is a point that you can improve in your flying. The very fact that you're saying "accuracy doesn't really matter because I'm taking a lot of deflection shots." to me sounds like you're just not really doing it right.

 

What I was previously talking about is getting the enemy pilot into a position where they have to take said deflection shots.

 

 

Verain says I'm being strict on this, and he's told me this before over voice, and I largely agree that I am being strict, but I think there's something to be said about the term good or great or ace or whatever you want to call it. If you have a lot of parts of your play that you can improve, then you are not an image that people can use to look up to as what they want to become and if people are then they are doing a disservice to themselves because they are copying mistakes. It's really hard sometimes to determine what somebody who's better than you is doing that is bad or good because you don't know all the reasons behind it so if you're trying to become better you might just largely copy them, and of course a lot of the time people that far behind you are unable to even figure out what it is that you're doing that is so different from them.

 

 

As for my point being a bit of a bait and switch, yeah maybe a little bit. I still think I can probably count pilots that I think to be good on 2 or 3 hands at the most. Odds of finding those pilots on one server in such concentration is pretty rare.

 

I realize I'm being elitist, call it what you want. It's just that when the vast majority of the population, even pilots who think that they're good and are doing well for themselves are making such simple mistakes in their play it's hard not to be a little elitist about it.

Looks like you have part of your game that needs improvement. So by your own definition you are not a good player. I am not saying your not. You are

Then I'm going to agree to disagree with you on your part there too. I think scouts should play ultra-agressive and cap and move on, there best role really isn't defense.

I never said that your numbers come from focusing unthreatening players. From what I've seen you attack the closest player without bias.

 

Verain is hardly a princess when asking for peels. He is one of the hardest gunships to kill, but if he doesn't get a peel then he can't really do his job. If your team's top gunship is constantly on the move, your team's chances to win are severely decreased. But you already know all of this.

 

 

 

 

I certainly think Drak should be known for his scout play. When I'm playing gunship and he's on my team, I can usually fire at will. He often peels for me before I even ask for it. Helping out his teammates hurts his DPS but it raises mine considerably. The result? Higher team DPS, more wins. It's a team game and things like holding the nodes and supporting teammates increases the chances of a win for the team. Sure, it will affect your stat sheet at the end of the game, but this isn't a single player game. To argue that holding a node green/blue is a bad call is simply ludicrous and I don't think you'll find anyone that agrees with your opinion on that.

 

 

 

 

Not doing it right or doing it differently? Like I said before, it appears as though you attack the closest target without bias. If that ship runs away it seems like you rarely give chase. Instead, you will find the next closest target and attack him. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Now what if you are in a game and you want to kill or at least tie up a high priority target such as Verain's gunship? Are you going to shoot him a few times and then swap to someone else? Sometimes that can be the right call, but sometimes it's the right call to chase him. Are you going to be able to perfectly center him at the perfect distance with every shot you take? Not unless he makes a mistake. You might get a few centered shots when he pops DF and tries to shoot you.

 

To say that you are out of position unless you are taking perfectly centered shots is a disservice to pilots that know how to fly evasively.

 

 

 

 

It's a difference of opinion. I think you're the best solo play scout pilot in the world but does that make you more of an Ace than Drak? Probably not, because having Drak on my team means the team has a higher chance of winning. He can play all 4 ships (Battlescout, Gunship, Minebomber, Dronebomber) extremely well and will swap to whatever is necessary to win the game. Does he have better stats than you? No, but that's beside the point. All that matters is the team winning or losing.

 

 

Let's start a hypothetical scenario here. Let's say I'm the 50th best Scout pilot in the game. Of those 50 Scout pilots, let's say I'm the only good gunship and bomber pilot (again hypothetical). Who is the BEST pilot? Sometimes it will be those 49 other pilots, but sometimes it will be me. There are certain situations where it is the wrong call to use a scout, and I would be able to help my team out a lot more by picking the correct ship for the meta.

 

 

 

 

It's not so much as being elitist as it is that you seem to be missing the point that this is a team game and the stat sheet isn't as super important as you make it out to be.

 

Another important point to make is that oftentimes in Domination mode, players are forced into making mistakes when the odds are heavily stacked against them (i.e. uneven teams). If they haven't given up hope and are still trying to win the game, they don't have the luxury of playing efficiently. If they wanted a good DPS and high accuracy they could just ignore the nodes and fight off the nodes and avoid these simple mistakes. But then that would decrease their chance of winning to 0%.

If you think I attack the closest target without bias then you're vehemently wrong. As for whether Verain's a princess. That's a joke I've had with Drako and other older pilots about Sam since I met them that I was just reappropriating for Verain. Gunship pilots usually are princesses because they think that their peels are more important than anything. I'm not going to go into any specifics on this but I've definitely been yelled at by both of them for saying I'm on a guy, killing him, and when the target respawns, the target killing either of them and them saying it's my fault. It's no hard feelings, it's just royalty ;P

As for the green/blue holding being ludicrous. I think how you're taking such a simple comment about a complex situation to be ludicrous. I think it's ludicrous to allow yourself to be killed on the node in favor of capping the node just to lose it a second later when you do die because your transversal isn't high enough for you to dodge everything that's coming at you.

You're talking about it being a team game left right and center but then you're saying it's necessary to play every single ship to switch for the meta? You're the ludicrous one, you're essentially saying that in order to win a team game, you have to be the best solo player in the world and do everything in the game by yourself. Get off it Siraka. The guys with the 96%+ winrates are not getting it by being alone and switching. They're getting it by being in a group and switching for synergies, and at that point its not their own winrate anymore, it's their teams winrate. I'll stick to my guns by saying he shouldn't be known for his scout play, but by no means am I saying anything about being superior to him. I'm saying that his bomber play is just that much vastly ahead of his scout play.

As for win-rates. You know what's hilarious? I frequently get blamed for the entire team losing if I lose when I'm playing solo. It's quite funny because there are players who think that out of all 7 people other than me, the person who is most likely losing them the game is me. What they're not seeing when they say that is the fast I average 3+ node caps a game. Even Nemarus has told me "You know if you're just going for damage you're probably going to lose." and in that game I had 6 node caps as well as 165 DPS which is about average.

Six. Honestly I was pissed off enough at Nemarus having said that and blaming me for the loss that I logged out then and there. You'd think somebody with his experience wouldn't be so ignorant.

You know what would happen if I did what you were saying about defending until the bomber gets there?

I would lose harder because that's a perfect situation and a bit of a pipedream. Not to mention that if I'm sticking close to the node when the bomber is on it's way then by your own words the bomber doesn't have peels, and I'm not supporting my teammates. The easiest time to deal with bombers is when they're on their way to a node or cover and within a couple seconds of them getting to the node.

Also when you say green/blue, you're throwing a bit of a red herring because green is an entirely different time from blue. You have the time to go from A - B in the largest map in the time it takes for a node to go green to blue.

How about instead of DPS I tell you about another metric I made up awhile ago called nodes/minute. The reason why my DPS is high is because the number of nodes I'm defending per minute is higher than yours. As a result I always have something to shoot at and I'm minimizing my 0 time. If you think I'm only talking about DPS at the end of a match when I say DPS then you really need to re-evaluate what I've been telling you all this time.

DPS is the only visible stat from the imaginary stat screen that talks about your overall game performance that you can pull up to talk about one game or all games.

Stats like nodes/minute, kills/minute, turrets/game, full clears/game, players diverted from defending other nodes/game, teammates prevented from being ion railed for a thousand years/game. Stats that you can't see on your score screen but your DPS tells a story of. I'll tell you, the only games where I'm competing for straight DPS is when I'm playing with Sam or Scrab and victory is near assured as it is.

In short, you think I'm having a narrow view on the game, I think your eyes just aren't wide enough to see the other areas I'm focussing on.

Even Nemarus has told me "You know if you're just going for damage you're probably going to lose." and in that game I had 6 node caps as well as 165 DPS which is about average.

 

Six. Honestly I was pissed off enough at Nemarus having said that and blaming me for the loss that I logged out then and there. You'd think somebody with his experience wouldn't be so ignorant.

When was this? I don't recall saying this to you, and even if I did, I certainly didn't blame you for your team's loss.

But honestly, I don't recall flying on the same team as you in recent memory. I only recall a few matches against XP.

I have told you, in response to your stream, that I'm surprised you don't fully "green out" a node when you cap it. But I would never expect you to sit on defense.

As for my own philosophy, if a node is capped but there are enemies still orbiting around it, I'll stay on the node and go defensive. ANY scout is very hard to kill on a node without Gunship or Bomber support. So yeah, if a node is under pressure, holding it until reinforcements arrive is something every Scout can and should do.

If there isn't local pressure, then yeah, I'll leave the node for someone else to defend, so that I can either go intercept enemy Bombers and Gunships near their spawn or go attack another node.

Anyway, if I did say something, and you interpreted it as attack or blame, then I apologize. Though I really don't remember any such episode. I have nothing but respect for you.

When was this? I don't recall saying this to you, and even if I did, I certainly didn't blame you for your team's loss.

 

But honestly, I don't recall flying on the same team as you in recent memory. I only recall a few matches against XP.

 

I have told you, in response to your stream, that I'm surprised you don't fully "green out" a node when you cap it. But I would never expect you to sit on defense.

 

As for my own philosophy, if a node is capped but there are enemies still orbiting around it, I'll stay on the node and go defensive. ANY scout is very hard to kill on a node without Gunship or Bomber support. So yeah, if a node is under pressure, holding it until reinforcements arrive is something every Scout can and should do.

 

If there isn't local pressure, then yeah, I'll leave the node for someone else to defend, so that I can either go intercept enemy Bombers and Gunships near their spawn or go attack another node.

 

Anyway, if I did say something, and you interpreted it as attack or blame, then I apologize. Though I really don't remember any such episode. I have nothing but respect for you.

You did it more than once actually. You did it twice when I was playing my imp on Ebon Hawk and once when I was on pub side and it was all last summer, and after you said it, your Eclipse squadron members told me it was you and them blaming me and they called me a bad pilot, there was more to it than just that so I'm paraphrasing. It's why I transferred my imp toon off Ebon Hawk because I just didn't like how other imps treated me.

The game I referred to in my previous post was when we were on pub side. I also believe you said something about it being the last time you were flying pub before the conquest was released.

As for the philosophy. I really feel like you too are taking a very complex situation and oversimplifying it and saying that's what you have to do everytime. It's like the difference between the mercator projection and what the world really looks like, if I had to compare it to anything.

You did it more than once actually. You did it twice when I was playing my imp on Ebon Hawk and once when I was on pub side and it was all last summer, and after you said it, your Eclipse squadron members told me it was you blaming me and they called me a bad pilot, there was more to it than just that so I'm paraphrasing. It's why I transferred my imp toon off Ebon Hawk because I just didn't like how other imps treated me.

 

The game I referred to in my previous post was when we were on pub side. I also believe you said something about it being the last time you were flying pub before the conquest was released.

Well that sucks. I'm sorry.

Back then, I didn't play much Scout in Domination, and certainly not as aggressively as I do now. So yes, I was ignorant back then, and I apologize. Also, last year was kinda sucky for me, so it is entirely possible I was feeling snipey that day. I think it was also before I'd learned/heard as much about you as a person (that you are actually a cool guy and not That Evil Pilot Who Just Farms Damage All Day), and thus was perhaps letting my skill envy color my tone.

And as for Eclipse Squadron members treating you badly ... it is a constant struggle for me to remind certain members of my guild that not all aces, be they enemies or allies, are villains. In fact very few are. But by its nature, PvP leads people to take things personally, and if they can't strike back in gameplay, then they strike back other ways. Some can get very vindictive, and I have kicked the occasional person out of Eclipse Squadron for repeatedly acting that way.

Unfortunately, that doesn't stop them from speaking on [Gsf] or [Ops].

That being said, if anyone was particularly bad, please do PM me their names. They likely won't surprise me.

Though honestly, it's not just Eclipse Squadron. Last week I was flying pubside on Tane. I had two consecutive TDM's with 25+ kills and 130k+ damage. Then someone hopped over to tell me that Imp [Gsf] was saying I was a hacker and needed to be reported. -_-

The good news was that, once I hopped over, said I was Tane, and explained my build and damage overcharge and stuff, they actually apologized and were asking for more tips. So in some cases, if you are patient and wade through the venom, you can actually get through to them.

But yeah, as the OP proves, the initial impression new pilots have about veteran pilots is that we win because of gear, premades, or cheating.

Anyway, know that these days, when I encounter you on TEH, there is nothing but respect, and I talk about you in [Guild] as such. And I am sorry for instigating any past drama.

Well that sucks. I'm sorry.

 

Back then, I didn't play much Scout in Domination, and certainly not as aggressively as I do now. So yes, I was ignorant back then, and I apologize. Also, last year was kinda sucky for me, so it is entirely possible I was feeling snipey that day. I think it was also before I'd learned/heard as much about you as a person (that you are actually a cool guy and not That Evil Pilot Who Just Farms Damage All Day), and thus was perhaps letting my skill envy color my tone.

 

And as for Eclipse Squadron members treating you badly ... it is a constant struggle for me to remind certain members of my guild that not all aces, be they enemies or allies, are villains. In fact very few are. But by its nature, PvP leads people to take things personally, and if they can't strike back in gameplay, then they strike back other ways. Some can get very vindictive, and I have kicked the occasional person out of Eclipse Squadron for repeatedly acting that way.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't stop them from speaking on [Gsf] or [Ops].

 

That being said, if anyone was particularly bad, please do PM me their names. They likely won't surprise me.

 

Though honestly, it's not just Eclipse Squadron. Last week I was flying pubside on Tane. I had two consecutive TDM's with 25+ kills and 130k+ damage. Then someone hopped over to tell me that Imp [Gsf] was saying I was a hacker and needed to be reported. -_-

 

The good news was that, once I hopped over, said I was Tane, and explained my build and damage overcharge and stuff, they actually apologized and were asking for more tips. So in some cases, if you are patient and wade through the venom, you can actually get through to them.

 

But yeah, as the OP proves, the initial impression new pilots have about veteran pilots is that we win because of gear, premades, or cheating.

 

Anyway, know that these days, when I encounter you on TEH, there is nothing but respect, and I talk about you in [Guild] as such. And I am sorry for instigating any past drama.

Well apology accepted, I have a lot of respect for people who admit their faults and work to improve themselves. As for the hacker comments, I usually ignore them nowadays myself or I have friends on the other side who defend me.

As for names I really don't remember them in particular. I haven't seen them in the last 6 months at least.

How about instead of DPS I tell you about another metric I made up awhile ago called nodes/minute. The reason why my DPS is high is because the number of nodes I'm defending per minute is higher than yours. As a result I always have something to shoot at and I'm minimizing my 0 time. If you think I'm only talking about DPS at the end of a match when I say DPS then you really need to re-evaluate what I've been telling you all this time.

 

DPS is the only visible stat from the imaginary stat screen that talks about your overall game performance that you can pull up to talk about one game or all games.

 

Stats like nodes/minute, kills/minute, turrets/game, full clears/game, players diverted from defending other nodes/game, teammates prevented from being ion railed for a thousand years/game. Stats that you can't see on your score screen but your DPS tells a story of. I'll tell you, the only games where I'm competing for straight DPS is when I'm playing with Sam or Scrab and victory is near assured as it is.

Well if you're talking about objectives when you write, "DPS," that's going to confuse a lot of people. It's a bit of a clunky phrase, but I'd characterize your flying style as, "optimized for offensive uptime and output." It's about winning, but it's about doing it by killing as much as possible, as fast as possible, as continuously as possible. There's just so much output that I think some people don't see the prioritization and planning in there, they just see a continuous stream of: Toms_GSF_alt killed teammate_x messages popping up on their screens. You do things so fast that a lot of people probably don't have time to pick up on what you're doing.

In terms of relevant performance for match victory I've seen people that tend to be about as effective in terms of controlling nodes in domination or getting to 50 kills first in TDM, but may add more team support, defense, or misc. utility to what they do. Net effect for the team is about the same, but DPS and accuracy may not be quite as high.

Personally, I find Drako a lot easier to deal with if he's in a bomber instead of a scout. I'm not usually in a scout myself though, so ship balance plays into that.

Well if you're talking about objectives when you write, "DPS," that's going to confuse a lot of people. It's a bit of a clunky phrase, but I'd characterize your flying style as, "optimized for offensive uptime and output." It's about winning, but it's about doing it by killing as much as possible, as fast as possible, as continuously as possible. There's just so much output that I think some people don't see the prioritization and planning in there, they just see a continuous stream of: Toms_GSF_alt killed teammate_x messages popping up on their screens. You do things so fast that a lot of people probably don't have time to pick up on what you're doing.

 

In terms of relevant performance for match victory I've seen people that tend to be about as effective in terms of controlling nodes in domination or getting to 50 kills first in TDM, but may add more team support, defense, or misc. utility to what they do. Net effect for the team is about the same, but DPS and accuracy may not be quite as high.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I find Drako a lot easier to deal with if he's in a bomber instead of a scout. I'm not usually in a scout myself though, so ship balance plays into that.

I'm not talking about how easy he is to "deal with" per se. It's more about his overall game presence if you know what I mean.

Ok, gotcha. The whole, "Drako in a bomber at B is a problem at all three nodes," type thing.

He really is excellent at timely swaps for maximum effect and at making it from sat to sat without getting intercepted in transit.

There's a lot of stuff flying in/through here, but I just want to say that I will actually go to bat defending Tommm with his practice of leaving the node half-capped rather than staying on it to make sure it's capped (Not that he needs it).

For one, it very much follows his flight style/philosophy insofar as I've seen.

Tommm, Scrabs, and similar pilots are at their absolute best when they are diving at the enemy, and I've seen in several cases this means pushing almost their entire team back to the cap ship in a dom. By doing that, he/they tend to create so much breathing space it's not funny, so when I'm with a pilot like that, if I know they are like that, I'll make it my business to go clean up the caps or provide support where they are, because it ends up being me playing to their strengths, which helps our team.

The way I see it, usually, with a pilot like that on your team, you're doing your team a disservice to not let them/want them to go free-ranging to some degree.

I personally think, and while I've not flown with or against him much, Tommm's the sort that's always going to be where the fighting is heaviest, and is such a heavy hitter, it's just not right to try to reign him in. In terms of team game, it's adjusting my style to his strengths, rather than trying to get him to conform to my idea of what the team should be.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... I used to love flying with Scrabs because he made my life so much easier in doing what I needed to do. Have someone on your team demanding that much attention, and it's silly to not effectively use that to your advantage. There were times I used to follow Scrabs in a dive at an enemy sat, and could rack up 3-4 kills in 10-15s as everyone on the opposing team in the area turned to follow/fight Scrabs. It was shooting fish in a barrel for me coming in 3km behind him.

For all the talk about a team game and how to team/not to team, etc going on here, I think it would be wrong for me to not pipe up here. If you've got an all-star on your team, it's worth the effort to play to their strengths, and as a team, try to shore up their weaknesses. If someone on my team is insanely good at taking the fight to the enemy, I feel like I do our team a disservice if I don't adapt my flight style to be in line with his. From what I've seen, if Tommm leaves a contested node, it's because others on his side are coming in, and the fight over the node is already done, so he's going on to look for the next fight. In that scenario, I'm perfectly happy to go sit on the node and finish capping before I go following him to the next melee. If for no other reason than that I know those pilots who can do that are better at that role than I am with my preferred build (Or in Tommm's and a few other cases, they're just better at that role than I am. Period.).

That whole team thing cuts both ways, and personally, I do feel like I would be in the wrong to try to get a pilot like Tommm to conform to what *I* think we need, rather than use him and his tendencies to the greatest advantage of our team. I'm perfectly happy being Cedric Ceballos to his Shaq if it means our team wins. While I'm still competitive, I'm old enough to not care too much if I'm alpha dog or not, and some of these kids out there who grew up with video games are just more twitchy than I could ever be at this point in my career.

As for who's effective and who's not judging by the scoreboard, we've all got our own metrics, and no one stat at the end gives the entire story for me.

Ok, gotcha. The whole, "Drako in a bomber at B is a problem at all three nodes," type thing.

 

He really is excellent at timely swaps for maximum effect and at making it from sat to sat without getting intercepted in transit.

/tangent

One of the streamed matches last week, when I was in a Mangler and Drakolich a Rampart, he had just capped A and I knew he was going to be heading to B. I caught him mid-way with an Ion Railgun, and then we had this epic open-space Mangler vs. Rampart duel. It was at once poetic and grotesque, like a hippo fighting an emu.

ultimatly as with any multiplayer game, the question needs to be asked "are we all having fun? and if not how can I reasonably address this?"

we can't address fully equipped ships, fact is if you've been flying since GSF launched almost all your ships are proably mastered. or pretty close to it.

as for pre-mades well... pre-mades can definatly be a pain for newbies to fight, but at the same time people wanna fly with their buddies. we need to reckongize that there is a differance between some guildies queing together for fun, and dedicated face rolling premades.

whats the reasonable course of action here? I'd argue the best you could do is continue flying but not cordinate as tightly as you could. as well cordinate ship choices in a constructive "let's all have fun" kind of way.

there's no need to gunship line and bomber ball a buncha newbies in a TDM, just for example.

and speaking personally I don't get anyone who thinks that kinda game play is fun. I perfer to mix it up.

as for cross server queues etc being the answer? they're not really the answer as the problem is still gonna exist in that young blood is going to be pushed out. (in fact it might cause further harm as you'll have more uber premades in the queue) Bioware needs to do more to enchourage new players to stick it out. some new fleet comm rewards would be nice

ultimatly as with any multiplayer game, the question needs to be asked "are we all having fun? and if not how can I reasonably address this?"

 

we can't address fully equipped ships, fact is if you've been flying since GSF launched almost all your ships are proably mastered. or pretty close to it.

as for pre-mades well... pre-mades can definatly be a pain for newbies to fight, but at the same time people wanna fly with their buddies. we need to reckongize that there is a differance between some guildies queing together for fun, and dedicated face rolling premades.

 

whats the reasonable course of action here? I'd argue the best you could do is continue flying but not cordinate as tightly as you could. as well cordinate ship choices in a constructive "let's all have fun" kind of way.

 

there's no need to gunship line and bomber ball a buncha newbies in a TDM, just for example.

and speaking personally I don't get anyone who thinks that kinda game play is fun. I perfer to mix it up.

 

 

as for cross server queues etc being the answer? they're not really the answer as the problem is still gonna exist in that young blood is going to be pushed out. (in fact it might cause further harm as you'll have more uber premades in the queue) Bioware needs to do more to enchourage new players to stick it out. some new fleet comm rewards would be nice

The issue is that people kind of naturally coordinate because of game sense. Most of the time when I play with my usual group we're not even talking about the game.

The issue is that people kind of naturally coordinate because of game sense. Most of the time when I play with my usual group we're not even talking about the game.

I'll agree with that, definatly happens.

ultimatly as with any multiplayer game, the question needs to be asked "are we all having fun? and if not how can I reasonably address this?"

As players, no, we don't need to do this. It's nice when some do, but your priority in a pvp game is that YOUR team is having a good time- not the other guys. If an MMO puts a name in red, well, you know what happens to it. It's like the old rule for Dungeon Master in D&D- "don't give the god hitpoints, because if you give it a whole lot of hitpoints, the players will find a way to to turn that number to 0".

You aren't responsible for your enemies having a good time. If you switch sides a decent amount then it should balance out, but that's not everyone's responsibility either.

we can't address fully equipped ships, fact is if you've been flying since GSF launched almost all your ships are proably mastered. or pretty close to it.

If you've been playing an alt for a couple months, all your ships you care about should be mastered. If you've been playing since launch, you might have all your ships complete (I sure do, but I think I'm the only one).

we need to reckongize that there is a differance between some guildies queing together for fun, and dedicated face rolling premades.

Yes, the difference is, the first kind loses to the second kind.

whats the reasonable course of action here?

I normally start a dialog with ion raligun.

there's no need to gunship line and bomber ball a buncha newbies in a TDM, just for example.

In practice, I rarely see a premade go all out versus actual noobs. What I do see often is like, a premade versus some very strong pilots on the other team, and newer pilots and even foodships on both sides. The premade has to coordinate or face a loss or a very frustrating experience, and once that happens the newer pilots on the other side won't be happy. To them, they were facing an unwinnable game and now it got worse. Put succinctly: I don't need to b chased for a whole match by the two good enemy players even in a game that's going to resolve in my team's favor, unless that decision actually is going to be winning us the game. I'll just hang out by the seeker mines and light them up, thanks much.

as for cross server queues etc being the answer? they're not really the answer as the problem is still gonna exist in that young blood is going to be pushed out. (in fact it might cause further harm as you'll have more uber premades in the queue)

On this you are absolutely and objectively wrong.

I know this, because I've seen "cross server" added to several games. The first one was Warcraft II, which went from "play over a BBS" to "play over the net, by hanging out in a channel and asking for games" to "set up matches with a ladder system" to "play over bnet". Each step greatly reduced the odds of a newer player making a match with someone with a hugely different level of skill, and greatly increased the ease of finding an opponent of reasonably similar skill.

WoW is normally a go-to example for me, and here is no different: originally, you were limited to players on your server. This meant you saw the same names repeatedly, which was rather charming, but it also meant that if you saw a certain premade you were up against, you KNOW you would lose. Yes, you could get a really good group and take them on sometimes, but if they were running and you weren't... and unlike GSF, there were absolutely people who would just play essentially all day long. The few people who had the time to get the raid gear, the skill to pvp, and the even-more-time to queue heavily would simply be lords of that playground, with weapons that were literally twice as good as the average ones.

We did lose some cool stories when that mostly ended (it didn't entirely end, you could still get those fights in open world pvp), but cross server pvp was literally night and day. I remember the almost instant pops vividly, and I definitely remember how much fairer the matches became. Even today, if you queue for random BG wtih four of your friends, the enemy team will often have vaguely similar gear and normally a 3-5 person premade on the other side as well. When you have that many people queueing solo or group, you have that kind of ability. In fact, the big problem limiting WoW matchmaking is the inability to make wargames.

So yes, I promise you that the queues would be vastly better with cross server, for ALL pvp. Ranked ground would pop faster and make better matches, random ground would give you balanced teams without everyone being some fotm alt and no heals or whatever, and GSF would be able to pit premades versus premades a lot more often than currently.

I literally cannot imagine it somehow resulting in less balanced matches. I just, cannot. You'd get instant pops versus similar numbers of premades on both sides, and closer queued ship reqs.

some new fleet comm rewards would be nice

I'm always happy when they up the rewards for GSF, and at the very least sellable decorative pieces would be nice. But there's a downside to this: if you add really important stuff to GSF grind things, you are "forcing" players who don't want to, to play. It's a fine line, because an MMO always "compensates" you for your time, and if one mode of play is fundamentally unrewarding, well, that's bad- people who want to play are incentivized not to. But go the other way and it's really bad too.

As players, no, we don't need to do this. It's nice when some do, but your priority in a pvp game is that YOUR team is having a good time- not the other guys. If an MMO puts a name in red, well, you know what happens to it. It's like the old rule for Dungeon Master in D&D- "don't give the god hitpoints, because if you give it a whole lot of hitpoints, the players will find a way to to turn that number to 0".

 

You aren't responsible for your enemies having a good time. If you switch sides a decent amount then it should balance out, but that's not everyone's responsibility either.

Verain, I can't agree with you here. What you are saying would be true if there was a large enough player base for queues to constantly be popping. In that case, then everyone would be having a good time regardless of the outcome because good players would inevitably be on both sides and, even if there was one lopsided match, you could get a better one a few minutes after the end.

However, we don't have that player base at the moment. All of us in the GSF community should be focused on building that base so that, when we want to have a good match, we can. Steamrolling newbie teams doesn't help us build the player base; therefore, it is counterproductive not only to the other team having a good time, but to your team's enjoyment as well.

If you've been playing an alt for a couple months, all your ships you care about should be mastered. If you've been playing since launch, you might have all your ships complete (I sure do, but I think I'm the only one).

 

Yes, the difference is, the first kind loses to the second kind.

Yeah...there's a lot I could say here, but I'll pass.

I normally start a dialog with ion raligun.

 

In practice, I rarely see a premade go all out versus actual noobs. What I do see often is like, a premade versus some very strong pilots on the other team, and newer pilots and even foodships on both sides. The premade has to coordinate or face a loss or a very frustrating experience, and once that happens the newer pilots on the other side won't be happy. To them, they were facing an unwinnable game and now it got worse. Put succinctly: I don't need to b chased for a whole match by the two good enemy players even in a game that's going to resolve in my team's favor, unless that decision actually is going to be winning us the game. I'll just hang out by the seeker mines and light them up, thanks much.

Apparently you're not queuing in the morning on Ebon Hawk, then. Every time I have done so recently, as an Imp, I've ended up on a team with mostly newbies (the occasional vet, but mostly newbs) and am getting steamrolled by Visaeris (or Daeneris, or whatever Game of Thrones moniker he's using this week) and his buddies. I like to flatter myself into thinking that with a decent team and upgraded ships, I could at least not get steamrolled by that group, but with a bunch of newbies who don't even know how to shoot, I've got no chance. I'm no Nem or Drako, with the ability to carry a team, and when I'm the best pilot on the team by far, against that...yeah, there's no chance. Matches end 950+ to 50- or 45+ to 5-. And people stop queuing.

On this you are absolutely and objectively wrong.

 

I know this, because I've seen "cross server" added to several games. The first one was Warcraft II, which went from "play over a BBS" to "play over the net, by hanging out in a channel and asking for games" to "set up matches with a ladder system" to "play over bnet". Each step greatly reduced the odds of a newer player making a match with someone with a hugely different level of skill, and greatly increased the ease of finding an opponent of reasonably similar skill.

 

WoW is normally a go-to example for me, and here is no different: originally, you were limited to players on your server. This meant you saw the same names repeatedly, which was rather charming, but it also meant that if you saw a certain premade you were up against, you KNOW you would lose. Yes, you could get a really good group and take them on sometimes, but if they were running and you weren't... and unlike GSF, there were absolutely people who would just play essentially all day long. The few people who had the time to get the raid gear, the skill to pvp, and the even-more-time to queue heavily would simply be lords of that playground, with weapons that were literally twice as good as the average ones.

 

We did lose some cool stories when that mostly ended (it didn't entirely end, you could still get those fights in open world pvp), but cross server pvp was literally night and day. I remember the almost instant pops vividly, and I definitely remember how much fairer the matches became. Even today, if you queue for random BG wtih four of your friends, the enemy team will often have vaguely similar gear and normally a 3-5 person premade on the other side as well. When you have that many people queueing solo or group, you have that kind of ability. In fact, the big problem limiting WoW matchmaking is the inability to make wargames.

 

So yes, I promise you that the queues would be vastly better with cross server, for ALL pvp. Ranked ground would pop faster and make better matches, random ground would give you balanced teams without everyone being some fotm alt and no heals or whatever, and GSF would be able to pit premades versus premades a lot more often than currently.

 

I literally cannot imagine it somehow resulting in less balanced matches. I just, cannot. You'd get instant pops versus similar numbers of premades on both sides, and closer queued ship reqs.

Since TOR is my only MMO (seriously, what kind of job do you have that you can afford more than one sub? I want it), I can't comment much on this except to say that, yes, I wish we'd get cross-server queues, and no, it's not happening anytime soon. Which is a shame.

I'm always happy when they up the rewards for GSF, and at the very least sellable decorative pieces would be nice. But there's a downside to this: if you add really important stuff to GSF grind things, you are "forcing" players who don't want to, to play. It's a fine line, because an MMO always "compensates" you for your time, and if one mode of play is fundamentally unrewarding, well, that's bad- people who want to play are incentivized not to. But go the other way and it's really bad too.

Again, can't comment much except to say that more people playing is good.