Dps- "Why aren't you guarding me I am pulling aggro off you so if you guard me I can do more dps"

 

Tank- "You know there is this thing called a healer that tends to be the most essential thing to keeping not only me alive but you alive and suprisingly enough Healing people causes threat and no offense but I would rather keep the whole party alive rather than just you

You Guard the healer in PVE?

 

Putting Guard on a healer isn't usually too wise given they're often more than 15m from you and they generate significantly less threat.

 

If for some reason you find yourself tanking on top of the healer (often a poor idea in itself) it's not a bad idea. Rarely should a healer be pulling aggro or taking enough hits from mobs to justify guarding them. If you lose aggro to a healer, hitting the mob with a taunt, stun or some form of CC will often be enough to get through the pull.

Yeah, healers are rarely in guard range of me in PvE and if I lose threat it's almost always to one of the DPS. I prefer guarding a melee DPS, particularly Sentinels.

If you are guarding the healer in pve then you are doing it wrong. Healing aggro is inconsequential in this game. Dps, on the other hand, pulls aggro far more quickly and with enrage timers on nearly every fight you need every bit of dps you can get.

 

Your dps is right and you are wrong. Don't guard the healer.

+1 for guarding dps

Not at level 50 yet but still either way ***** dps need to learn not to nuke withing the first 5 seconds

You should really adjust your strategy to the groups you are in.

 

As other people said, a healer generally isn't in range, and isn't getting hit with anything. But sometimes groups can't help but break cc, or don't see all the enemies that are active, and things like that, so a very squishy healer might benefit. If your healer isn't all that squishy, especially compared to a DPS in the group, you may want to rethink it, b/c healer classes often have defensives to activate that apply to enemies that the healer isn't attacking--sometimes DPS classes don't have much they can do defensively.

If you're placing guard on the healer during PvE, you're doing it wrong. Period.

Not at level 50 yet but still either way ***** dps need to learn not to nuke withing the first 5 seconds

 

I'm sorry, but that isn't true in this game. Enrage timers on every fight mean that your dps needs to go balls out in order for you to win.

 

Taunt is your friend. It isn't just a tool to get aggro back in this game it is actually a threat generator. You have to get out of the tanking mindset of other MMO's. Jump into the fray....hit every threat generator you have and use taunts on CD. Even going balls out the dps shouldn't be able to catch you if you are using taunt properly.

 

You also don't need to keep every add on you either. If there are normals (and even a strong here and there) the dps can usually handle them. Your focus should be on keeping aggro on the most threatening targets and you have more than enough tools to accomplish this.

 

Stop blaming the dps for doing dps....that is their job. This game is unlike other mmo's in that you have the tools to keep aggro even if they are nuking.

In PVE, there are more DPS'ers than healers. Single most effective use is to put the guard on healer. Melee DPS"ers should be standing at max attack range so they are considered range damage threat (read up on that if you are confused). Even with all DPS doing their best damage a tank should be able to manage threat on a single target with no problem AND still guard the healer. Most group compositions have other means for DPS'ers to manage or drop threat. There are too many DPS'ers for a single guard to be useful on them unless the tank is capable of swapping it around.

In PVE, there are more DPS'ers than healers. Single most effective use is to put the guard on healer. Melee DPS"ers should be standing at max attack range so they are considered range damage threat (read up on that if you are confused). Even with all DPS doing their best damage a tank should be able to manage threat on a single target with no problem AND still guard the healer. Most group compositions have other means for DPS'ers to manage or drop threat. There are too many DPS'ers for a single guard to be useful on them unless the tank is capable of swapping it around.

 

There is no way for a healer to rip aggro and they are never within 15 meters...so you're just wasting guard buddy.

Well...the thread got a little hijacked but I liked the original premise. Sooo...

 

Tank: "So DPS order is fire->saber->lightning, k?"

DPS 1: "Split DPS, got it."

Tank: "No no focus fire on the marks in that order. These are elites"

DPS 1: "Got it. I'll get on saber, <DPS 2> get on lightning. Pop cooldowns as soon as you hit him"

DPS 2: "Deal"

Tank: "Wait!"

 

DPS pulls, tank runs around trying to somehow keep aggro on all the mobs, healer has heartattack trying to heal the tank plus clothie DPS.

 

After pull

 

DPS 1: "Dude did you see that?! I got a 7k crit!!! ROFLMAO!"

DPS 2: "Duuuude!"

DPS 1: "Rez me nubs"

 

Tank and Healer secretly plot DPS's deaths.

 

What is the thing that tanks might not tell you? *LEARN COMMON SENSE SO YOU DON'T DIE*

No way? So the tank can hold aggro on all mobs for the entire op/flashpoint? All trash throughout the PVE event? The mobs dont have stun/knockback mechanics that throw wrenches into the plan? Keep in mind that the threat generation mechanics work for a healer too. A healer is the same as a DPS'er in this regards. A healer crits and so does a DPS'er.

 

The healer has the option to move within 15 m if it does come under threat.

Well...the thread got a little hijacked but I liked the original premise. Sooo...

 

Tank: "So DPS order is fire->saber->lightning, k?"

DPS 1: "Split DPS, got it."

Tank: "No no focus fire on the marks in that order. These are elites"

DPS 1: "Got it. I'll get on saber, <DPS 2> get on lightning. Pop cooldowns as soon as you hit him"

DPS 2: "Deal"

Tank: "Wait!"

 

DPS pulls, tank runs around trying to somehow keep aggro on all the mobs, healer has heartattack trying to heal the tank plus clothie DPS.

 

After pull

 

DPS 1: "Dude did you see that?! I got a 7k crit!!! ROFLMAO!"

DPS 2: "Duuuude!"

DPS 1: "Rez me nubs"

 

Tank and Healer secretly plot DPS's deaths.

 

What is the thing that tanks might not tell you? *LEARN COMMON SENSE SO YOU DON'T DIE*

 

Oh my god you have no idea how true this is.... Wait, no, you do.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Taleek

To OP, you seem to be a bit stubborn in taking other peoples advice/information about this.

 

Guard should be used on the melee dps that you feel are gonna be generating highest threat which often means the highest geared one too, such as your best assassin or marauder etc.

 

The simple reason for this is that it allows them to push that extra dps, without over-aggroing. I assume you get this much.

 

As for putting guard on healer, I actually did used to do this in my lowbie levels before realising exactly what it does and why it's useless on a healer.

 

Firstly as people mentioned - they're usually out of range. But even if they're not:

 

Second - they do not generate much threat. Which means if they're pulling it probably means people havn't even touched the mob thats been aggroed, or only touched it once or something. So in this case, it'll only take a handful of attacks, or a simple taunt to grab them back. If this is happening often, then you're just not creating enough threat on the secondary mobs.

 

This usually happens when the mob was CC'd, and then after CC breaks if nobody's attacking the mob, they go for the healer. So you just need to hit it a bit or just taunt as I said.

Second - they do not generate much threat. Which means if they're pulling it probably means people havn't even touched the mob thats been aggroed, or only touched it once or something. So in this case, it'll only take a handful of attacks, or a simple taunt to grab them back. If this is happening often, then you're just not creating enough threat on the secondary mobs.

 

This is correct, people who've tested it have determined that heals cause 50% threat. In other words, if a healer heals someone for 5k they only create 2.5k threat...which means that any DPS should have more threat than a healer.

 

In most other games, healer threat is also split across all mobs. I have not heard if people have proven that to be true in this game, but it is thought to be likely...

 

So, if there are 5 mobs in a group (regardless of if they are gold/silver/normals), and the healer heals someone for 5k. They've created 2.5k threat which is split between all 5 mobs, so the healer only has 500 threat on each mob.

 

Long story short: If you lost agro to the healer, then a one of a few different things have happened:

 

1) it's normals and the beginning of the fight: healer heals themselves through the small amount of damage until the normals are all dead.

2) it's normals and it's been a long time after the fight has started: DPS suck, tell them to kill the normals.

3) it's a silver/gold that just broke out of cc: tank should taunt & smack them once or twice OR have someone re-cc if possible.

4) it's a silver/gold: tank just sucks.

 

Also...taunt doesn't break cc, so if you are worried about where a cc'd mob will go...taunt them before cc breaks.

"Guard should be used on the melee dps that you feel are gonna be generating highest threat which often means the highest geared one too, such as your best assassin or marauder etc."

 

This has been tested too. A melee DPS'er should always be attacking at max range. If they do, then they are not considered a melee attacker by the mobs. Thus instead of needing 110% threat to pull, they need 130%.

 

If the group is going smoothly, the DPS should be able to burn through normal mobs (killing them before feeling effects of pulling them) and the tank should be able to hold the golds. Typically no one should have threat issues. So by everyone's logic in here; the tank should put guard on no one. BUT that is not the case. Guard is passive, it is there for the oh-**** scenario. And in that oh **** scenario, would you rather have guard on the healer or DPS who doesn't know what he is doing. A healer death will almost guarantee a wipe. DPS death, not so much.

 

If the tank is having issues holding threat during the high DPS bursts during a boss (beginning is most problematic- DPS use cool downs and relics) then the tank needs to reorganize it's order. A taunt to start the fight is pointless. Save the taunt after the initial burst of DPS when it would be most effective (taunting and raising the tanks threat to levels above those high burst DPS > pulling with taunt). Instead the tank should pull with his heavy hitting attacks and AOE taunt (AOE taunt is different from single target taunt. The single target raises the tanks threat above the highest threat generator; AOE taunt just forces mobs to attack in those 6 seconds).

 

If the group is going smoothly, the DPS should be able to burn through normal mobs (killing them before feeling effects of pulling them) and the tank should be able to hold the golds. Typically no one should have threat issues. So by everyone's logic in here; the tank should put guard on no one. BUT that is not the case. Guard is passive, it is there for the oh-**** scenario. And in that oh **** scenario, would you rather have guard on the healer or DPS who doesn't know what he is doing. A healer death will almost guarantee a wipe. DPS death, not so much.

 

You aren't listening to the rest of us.

 

Putting guard on a healer that is going to be out of range most of the time and causing the least aggro of anyone is idiotic.

 

Losing a dps on a boss is just as certain to cause a wipe as losing a healer because of rage timers. Losing the healer on a trash pull usually isn't certain death any more than losing a dps would be. Often you can clean up the pull even without the healer.

 

You can come up with any twisted rationalization you wish, but the fact remains that you are getting the least use possible out of the ability when you are guarding the healer.

 

If I were in your group and you guarded a healer I would immediately drop group because I would assume you don't have a clue how to play your class.

Man, I am listening.

 

Are you?

 

I do understand that having guard on someone who is not pulling threat makes half of the guard stats useless. But if a tank is doing his job then this will be useless for everyone.

 

Range DPS, just like healers, are capable of being outside the 15m range OR within it.

 

Melee DPS, especially on large boss fights, are able to hit a target at their max range and still be considered Range DPS. This has been tested, as I stated before. The criteria whether a player is considered range threat (130% to pull) vs. melee threat (110% to pull) is 4 m. HOWEVER, that 4m starts at the center of a creature. Where as a melee attack is with respect to the outside radius of a creature. Thus, for single targets the melee DPS will always want to be at max range in order to generate less threat.

 

In the scenario where the group has a clear cut high DPS'er, then I will concede that the tank may want to consider guarding that DPS. However, imagine a raid with 1 tank, 1 off tank/DPS, 1 tank healer/DPS, 1 main healer, and 4 equally geared/skilled DPS - who should get the guard? That scenario is the same as if the guard is on the main healer (1/4 guarded DPS = 0/4 guarded DPS) It is eventually a situation that the tank will have to deal with. And in fact this is the ideal situation. The DPS will have to manage their DPS and threat generation. That means communication. The DPS have to do their high DPS bursts when the tank is ready. There are plenty of threat tools to manage this (AOE taunts, single target taunts, threat drops, etc.).

 

Bottom line, a tank should be able to handle threat on a single target just fine without having to put guard on a single DPS. If you do have a DPS that outshines the rest, then make sure he communicates with the tank and does his heavy hitting attacks when the tank is able to single target taunt right afterwards (thus generating even more threat for the tank). If a group successfully communicates then the guard will always be under utilized.

 

PS - a dead DPS does not easily wipe a raid as a dead healer. Who typically has the battle rez?

If you have a melee dps then guarding them makes sense however the healer in my group usually dies from non aggro attacks (ie: hm bt jedi's random leap attack while raged) and the dmg reduction it gives helps keep him alive.

regardless you should guard who u need to win, a lot of dps think they can dump all their attacks on a boss and expect you to keep threat, a good dps manages their dmg output

my teammates rarely pull aggro but i think thats because i taunt when they burst and keep intercede in my rotation

I am listening....and this is what I hear from you:

 

You think we ought to waste the threat component of the buff 100% of the time on the person causing the least threat in the group. You want us to waste the damage reduction component of the buff the vast majority of the time on someone who is almost always standing outside the range where the buff works.

 

I think decreasing the threat of the melee dps who is likely to cause the most threat of anyone in the group and using the damage reduction on that same melee dps who is likely always standing within range is way way smarter.

 

As far as a battle res goes, I see an awful lot of sage dps who have a battle res. I also see a lot of commando healers without one. I guess that all depends on your group.

 

I can tell you that my groups rarely need a battle res and I don't waste my guard buff based on who can bail us out if things go wrong. I use it to ensure things go right.

 

That's the real difference here. You are championing the idea of using the buff as a way to plan for failure. I think we ought to use it as a way to plan for sucess.

If your healers rip aggro of you, you are doing something wrong.

thye only get 5% damage reduction with guard, that's not nearly enough to keep them safe. Guard healers in PvP, not in PvE.

 

The DPS that comes after you on the threat list should be guarded, In my case it's my Mercenary friend with his 6k crits on his tracer missiles.

"I am listening....and this is what I hear from you:"

- You aren't. I am suggesting that the OP tank try and promote communication with his group. There are multiple threat generation/management tools and not every situation is simplified into "guard healer/guard melee dps". And for you to insult people people for bringing up other suggestions and ideas other than your own makes you the type of player that is not enjoyable to play with.

 

"You think we ought to waste the threat component of the buff 100% of the time on the person causing the least threat in the group"

- Any heal that person makes generates threat on all mobs. That net threat on targets getting focused attacked is less, yes, but not necessarily lower for the collective of mobs.

 

"You want us to waste the damage reduction component of the buff the vast majority of the time on someone who is almost always standing outside the range where the buff works."

- If the healer comes under fire, they still have the option to move within 15m and receive the damage reduction. Please keep in mind that if a DPS momentarily snatches threat away from the tank that DPS can use a med while the tank is reacquiring threat. The purpose of a tank is to minimize splash damage. If the DPS decides to position himself in front of cones, AOE pounds, or fail to focus fire mobs then it is their fault.

 

"I think decreasing the threat of the melee dps who is likely to cause the most threat of anyone in the group and using the damage reduction on that same melee dps who is likely always standing within range is way way smarter."

- You still never addressed my scenario where there are multiple DPS'ers with high threat, all pulling the mob around. In addition, you do not seem to understand that if a melee DPS stands at his max attack range, he is less likely to pull the mob due to threat. I've mentioned it twice now (look it up).

- Communication is key. A tank has enough tools and rotations to handle threat on a single target. If a single DPS is pulling threat, the tank and DPS need to communicate more to coordinate their attack bursts and tank taunt rotations. If multiple DPS are pulling too much threat, then your tank needs to step it up and the guard is least of concerns. It is an ops for a reason. Tell your DPS stop being captain america. They don't need to limit their DPS bursts, just do it when a tank can manage it.

 

"That's the real difference here. You are championing the idea of using the buff as a way to plan for failure. I think we ought to use it as a way to plan for sucess."

- If you are relying on the DPS of a single individual to win then you have already failed. If you are relying on the damage reduction to win, then you are failing as a tank. To have a back up plan for when things do not go as planned, that is the key for success.

It doesn't matter how many people tell you that you are incorrect so I'm not going to continue arguing with you.

 

You can keep wasting your guard buff on the person who gets the least benefit from it. The rest of us prefer to use the buff in a beneficial way.

Edited March 22, 2012 by RDeanOU

Why do you think Guard is going to save a healer being attacked? It's only the threat reduction and a 5% damage reduction, the 50% damage transfer works in PvP only.

 

The threat component is pointless on them with how little threat heals cause and if something does attack them they're going to die just as fast as they would without it.

 

By just staying close enough to benefit from guard they also risk exposing themselves to close range aoe's which are quite common. Putting it on a melee DPS works because they have to be close enough to risk this anyway.

 

The fact that melee DPS count as ranged for threat pulling at max melee range is irrelevant, we're suggesting to put guard on melee simply because of guard's range limit.

Edited March 22, 2012 by WinterWraith