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8/2 Sentinel/Marauder Questions


KeyboardNinja

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Congratulations KBN on the Class Representative position! I'd also like to thank you for penning your guide.

 

I play a Combat Sentinel and my observations are from a strictly PVE end-game perspective.

 

I agree that Combat has far too much RNG influencing ability use and can result in you "mashing buttons like a coked-out ferret" to maximize dps. It's liveable, but I'd like to see the RNG factor reduced in some small way.

 

While our role is specific in raids, our versatility could be improved slightly by increasing our AoE capability. This need not be by much: a slight increase in the damage of TST and Cyclone Slash (reduce the focus cost by one as well). This would put us on par with the favoured Gunslingers (XS Freighter Fly-by) and Commando's (Mortar Volley) as far as ability to deal with groups of adds without making us OP methinks.

 

My last observation relates to our last-ditch, save my backside ability, Guarded by the Force. While this is to be used judiciously, it seems in some fights that the 99% damage reduction is meaningless. One example of such a time is the explosion/surge at the end of Heirad's Lightning Storm. Our defensive cool-downs can mitigate the majority of the damage from Lightning Storm, but the last burst of damage seems to completely by-pass the DR granted by GbtF, in NiM mode at least. Further, other classes have abilities that make them immune to damage completely (Force Barrier, Dodge) for much less cost. Therefore, I would suggest that GbtF be changed such that it not only provides 100% immunity to damage/damaging effects, but also to all control and/or movement impairing effects as well.

Edited by JKnightJ
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I also came up with two more philosophical concerns. I am not sure if any of these are actually good questions, or even really questions at all. Still here are my thoughts:

 

My first rumination is about the new Nightmare mechanics...

 

 

I think a balanced raid group employs 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee DPS and 2 ranged DPS. Thus, at least 3 people are expected to be in melee range of the boss any given time. Do the Devs agree with my definition of a balanced raid group?

 

Many of the latest Nightmare Operations bosses introduced new mechanics, which are extra challenging as melee DPS. In words, groups are punished when raid members stack on top of the boss and one another. Do the Devs agree the new mechanics are more punishing for melee?

 

If so, was this a conscientious decision to encourage more ranged DPS or an unfortunate by-product of the new fights? Going forward, will there be more attention to to promote balanced DPS needs?

 

 

Next, I ponder the purpose and value of three unique DPS specs...

 

Since this is a pure DPS class should the three available specs be viable in every situation? In an extreme example of this, if the three classes were all equally viable, then there would be nothing unique to each of them.

 

Previously, the Devs said they targeted 5% damage difference between classes, which presumably also means a 5% disparity between each spec within the same class. However how is this defined - on the combat dummy, throughout an operation, or in a Warzone?

 

On some level I really like the idea of Watchman/Annihilation as the the single target sustained DPS spec, Combat/Carnage as the burst DPS spec, and Focus/Rage as the AoE spec. If this were the case, it would provide maximum flexibility as I would be able to spec into the most optimal DPS role for whatever I was doing.

 

Unfortunately, this all but eliminates Watchman/Annihilation's value in PvP and Focus/Rage's value in most Operations. In theory, we'd still have two viable choices for PvE and two viable choices for PvP. In reality, we are not too far off from this right now...

 

Maybe the solution is to further differentiate or specialize the different specs. Based on the current state, I think this would require some changes to Combat/Carnage. It's sustained single target DPS is simply too high so increase its burst further and nerf its non-burst damage? This would probably also make it more attractive in PvP...

 

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I think a balanced raid group employs 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee DPS and 2 ranged DPS. Thus, at least 3 people are expected to be in melee range of the boss any given time. Do the Devs agree with my definition of a balanced raid group?

 

Many of the latest Nightmare Operations bosses introduced new mechanics, which are extra challenging as melee DPS. In words, groups are punished when raid members stack on top of the boss and one another. Do the Devs agree the new mechanics are more punishing for melee?

 

If so, was this a conscientious decision to encourage more ranged DPS or an unfortunate by-product of the new fights? Going forward, will there be more attention to to promote balanced DPS needs?

 

 

Oofalong, I totally agree that this question does need to be asked, but I'm not sure if the Sentinel class questions should be about this. It does seem that a lot of the content from NiM and hell, even HM Scum and Villainy, tends to discourage melee in groups. Does this mean that good melee dps players can't excel? No, of course not, these instances are very doable with melee in the group. However, the amount of knockbacks, AoE damage and some boss specific mechanics tend to discourage the use of melee dps in favor of more ranged dps. As one of the tanks in my group put it when the expansion came out, "Wow, this really is the **** on the melee and the tanks patch."

 

With that being said, I wonder if the developers would consider having a similar Q&A type thing, but with raid specific questions and also PVP specific questions. Maybe get a group of the GMs from the top progression guilds together and let them ask a few questions after deliberation. Same with PVP, but have a few elected representatives from the PVP community doing the same thing.

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With that being said, I wonder if the developers would consider having a similar Q&A type thing, but with raid specific questions and also PVP specific questions. Maybe get a group of the GMs from the top progression guilds together and let them ask a few questions after deliberation. Same with PVP, but have a few elected representatives from the PVP community doing the same thing.

 

This is a really good idea. I'm going to ping eric about it so that it comes to his attention. Even if we can only ask "content" questions once every few months, it would still be valuable.

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I used watchman for ranked PVP back in patch 1.3. It was definitely viable back then. The dots actually tick very strong. The dots aren't the problem. TBH, almost no medics on Pot5 cleanse dots. Cleansing dots is usually a waste of time, since a heal could be being channeled instead, and watchman's dots reapply super fast.

 

You're still missing the basics. Made a long post so I spoilered it:

 

 

 

Lets say I jump out of a door, which spec does the most damage in 12 seconds, or 8 GCDs:

 

vs a Healer

vs a Group

vs a Tank

vs a DD

 

That's where I see the problem with watchman in PvP. If the fights were longer, then sure. I ran watchman last night in two voidstars (Somehow we got 6 in a row, "Thanks Obioware!"), then combat in 2, then focus in 2. Same premade vs same premade save the 6th (The random bads were a non issue save derping on doors). I play objectives and focused healers in combat and watchman. Combat clearly outperformed - especially given that the stuff was noticeably dead faster (Greater burst, higher DPH/DPGCD). I do like the shortened range on leap tho :/ The DoT heals were practically worthless - even when solo door guarding. It's not even a L2P the spec issue, as I've gotten pretty consistent with all three in terms of skill (Not to mention, this game really isn't that hard mechanically).

 

 

Watchman does not have a short burst capability, and it takes at least 6 GCDs to really ramp up well to where its more comparable, and by that time the fight should be 75% over.

 

I would ask though, as I wasn't around for the golden age of stun bubbles, what was different in 1.3 with watchman?

Edited by Maelael
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I would ask though, as I wasn't around for the golden age of stun bubbles, what was different in 1.3 with watchman?

 

Watchman's self healing was strong in patch 1.3, and plasma blades increased burn damage by 15%. Patch 2.0 reduced plasma brands' damage by 9%.

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I play a Combat Sentinel and my observations are from a strictly PVE end-game perspective.

 

I agree that Combat has far too much RNG influencing ability use and can result in you "mashing buttons like a coked-out ferret" to maximize dps. It's liveable, but I'd like to see the RNG factor reduced in some small way.

 

I agree entirely, the beauty of Combat pre 2.0 was a fluid rotation. Related: is the reoccurence of Alacrity buffed MS a bug or change by design?

Edited by Darth_Dreselus
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Watchman's self healing was strong in patch 1.3, and plasma blades increased burn damage by 15%. Patch 2.0 reduced plasma brands' damage by 9%.

 

Interesting. I could easily see doubling both as is (or 15% for Plasma Blades as in 1.3) for JUST PvP and it would make it a more playable spec. Not so sure/sold on the heals, but a better set of meaningful ticks on the DoTs would make it more worth it. Ironically were talking about a whole 9%, but I think coupled with the better heals I've heard about it could be more viable.

 

Given the way stats work and how they changed in 2.0 (Crit and Surge specifically), was Watchman better off with the old way the stats worked? Keep in mind I've only been here since April - not that this game was all that difficult to pick up, I just wasn't here for the old stuff so I have no point of reference.

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Off the bat I'd like to say that I think our AC (Knights and Maras) are in a great place at the moment. Each of our three trees is viable to a certain degree in both PvP and PvE (Rage/Focus is extremely situationally viable in PvE conversely Annihilation/Watchman is situationally viable in PvP) with each having its own strengths, weaknesses, and play styles allowing players to chose which tree fits their own style and use it for the majority of fights. Annihilation/Watchman is fantastic at long, single target fights; Carnage/Combat shines when there is minimal target switching between targets of high health and when there are single low health adds; Rage/Focus comes into its own when there are a large number of low health adds or in any situation where AoE is useful. That is, in my opinion, the most balanced of any AC in SW:tOR.

 

Before I jump into opinions on the points offered by others I'd like to give a real world example of the ways in which you can tailor each spec to a specific fight based on your own raid composition: When my previous guild was progressing through HM TFB we had a night of great progress on Operator IX followed by one plagued with healer latency issues (both healers were <1000ms). I'm personally an Annihilation/Watchman guy but I can play Carnage/Combat well and do so for fights that it makes sense for, like Op IX, but no matter what I did the DPS were still dying. In my experience (the math folks will probably correct me) hitting Berserk/Zen in Annihilation/Watchman heals the raid for ~2k a person every ~20 seconds. Not much, but I decided to give it a shot (since I had an idea about how to keep Annihilator/Merciless up by timing my last Annihilate/Merciless Strike on the core to be my last strike, hitting an add in the middle, then leaping at the next core). First attempt as Annihilation/Watchman, we downed it. Its all about tailoring the tree to your playstyle.

 

Now, a few thoughts about the some of the proposed questions/changes: First off, I think taking away Annihilator/Merciless altogether is too much of a PvE/PvP buff for Annihilation/Watchman. Perhaps simply extending it by ~5 seconds would be enough to remove a lot of the pressure to reapply it. I don't think we need to "fix" any of the trees because I fear doing so would lead to favoring one trees too much (you'll find that is the theme of my post). As for Carnage/Combat, I think the current RNG is what balances the spec against the smoothness of Annihilation/Watchman but I can see the benefit of making gore a static buff until an ability is used, especially in PvP. Rage/Focus is where I think I will start to go against a lot of sentiments in the community...As it stands, Rage/Focus is the only Marauder/Sentinel tree with viable AoE (actually, I'd be willing to argue the best AoE DPS in the game currently) and if their single-target DPS were buffed that would make it extremely difficult to continue to play other specs in light of the increased survivability, massive AoE, and similar single-target DPS that Rage/Focus could bring. It would simply invalidate all the other Marauder/Sentinel trees and that is not something I would like to see (especially since I am not a fan of Rage/Focus in the slightest :p).

 

That's what I think, flame, correct, or agree to your heart's content.

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Each of our three trees is viable to a certain degree in both PvP and PvE (Rage/Focus is extremely situationally viable in PvE conversely Annihilation/Watchman is situationally viable in PvP)

 

The only time that watchman spec works for PVP is Voidstar defense. Rage and carnage are better than watchman for every single warzone, by a longshot.

Edited by TheCourier-
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Interesting. I could easily see doubling both as is (or 15% for Plasma Blades as in 1.3) for JUST PvP and it would make it a more playable spec. Not so sure/sold on the heals, but a better set of meaningful ticks on the DoTs would make it more worth it. Ironically were talking about a whole 9%, but I think coupled with the better heals I've heard about it could be more viable.

 

Given the way stats work and how they changed in 2.0 (Crit and Surge specifically), was Watchman better off with the old way the stats worked? Keep in mind I've only been here since April - not that this game was all that difficult to pick up, I just wasn't here for the old stuff so I have no point of reference.

 

Watchman worked way better with the old crit rating because 33% crit chance was very easily achievable, which worked well with the self healing and crit bonus damage to dots.

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The only time that watchman spec works for PVP is Voidstar defense. Rage and carnage are better than watchman for every single warzone, by a longshot.

 

Hence why I said "situationally viable". Though, as pointed out earlier it is wonderful for dueling, which is PvP but not necessarily a relevant part, albeit. I just worry buffing any of the specs too much in any way will bring the eventual nerf-hammer down upon us thus ruining the near-perfect balance we currently have.

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IMPORTANT: I am a Marauder player, not a Sentinel player. I'll do my best to state the Sentinel version of whatever I am naming, but if I miss something, don't Gibbs slap me for it. :p

 

To be honest, I am rather content with Sent/Mara in general. That doesn't do much for me or anyone else on the thread however, so I'll post some minor adjustment ideas.

 

Annihilation PvP:

There are some incredible Annihilation PvP players. Sadly, the fact is that a really good enemy healer can shut down one via dot cleansing. A spec like Vigilance Guardian / Vengeance Juggernaut has dots as well, but they don't rely upon them half as much as Annihilation does. The ability to cleanse dots, however, is a part of the game, and I don't see the game as a whole benefiting at all from having an already-effective dps class use uncleansable dots. As for the acidblade-type ability (permanent buff until used, then applies dot) idea proposed by other members of the discussion, I feel like class mechanic uniformity partially destroys the unique feel of each class. I think Marauder/Sentinel should keep its unique dot system as it is. I'm not 100% behind this idea, but perhaps it'd make sense to lower the cooldown on Deadly Saber so that the dots do not have to be built up every time, they continue at three stacks if used on cooldown, but fall off it a player fails to reactivate them.

PS: I am in favor of changing the 6 stacks of juyo form to 3 (and thus doubling the effect of each stack) to effectively reduce the 'get-going' time of Annihilation without messing with any damage values or other abilities.

 

Carnage PvP: I don't see too much need for change with this spec. It requires skill to use, yet is effective if used correctly. In the wrong hands, it suffices as cannon fodder, which is also appreciated. Just a minor suggestion, perhaps the Ravage/Master Strike root effect could be made more effective by giving the attacker temporary immunity to stuns and knockbacks. Just a thought, if you don't like the idea that's chill with me. I'm not a very big Carnage PvPer (or really, Marauder PvPer at all).

 

Rage - Smashmonkey PvP: I'm perfectly content where it is. Powerful as an aoe spec should be, not overly strong (though clearly on the edge).

 

Annihilation PvE: I see no reason for this spec to change. Fun, fluid, effective.

 

Carnage PvE: The spec is good, as is obvious by the crazy number people hit with it. However, the RNG on the opener is rediculous. The problem is that you really can't change that without redesigning half the spec, or more than that. To be honest I think the cheif issue lies with the Gore/VT (??? / Dispatch) proc. It's nearly impossible to know whether to use Gore or not, because while you may not have a Ravage -> Force Scream rotation lined up, you might get the proc the next second, and thus completely wasted a free Gore. There has to be a better way to handle that.

 

Rage PvE: I don't really see much reason for this spec to change either. I don't really think it was ever designed for single-target ops bosses, so I don't see a reason to change it to such.

 

 

Just my two cents. You can disagree (and you probably will) but remember we're all here to make the class more balanced.

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I've been thinking about the current trend in Operation mechanics that penalise Annihilation/Watchman. I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much the same issue as when in PVP. Here's hoping that if/when it does get fixed, one will fix the other.
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Watchman worked way better with the old crit rating because 33% crit chance was very easily achievable, which worked well with the self healing and crit bonus damage to dots.

 

First of all, gratulations to the winner. Secondly, KeyboardNinja seems to do a really nice and responsible job to put the major class issues on the table.

 

I myself played Watchman for a very long time. After the 2.0 release, Watchman lost its strength in PVP because of a very simple reason that is not really pinpointed here: The extremely strong crit nerf.

 

Watchman was based on DPS in combination with the sustain and survivability. I played on +40% crit including buffs. Now, the base crit chance and the crit stat cruve became so low that the crits proccing self heals are not there anymore on the previous level. Best practice in PVP for DPS is a 0 crit gear.

 

So my major point here: The 2.0 crit nerf killed the sustain and survivability with self heals of the watchman tree.

 

My idea to solve the issue would be a buff on the procs for self heals.

 

(Yes, Zen got 6 instead of 4 stacks now. But still, the major issue is the crit based self heal without active Zen after the extremely strong crit nerf hammer)

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Congratulations on the nomination. Now down to business. I am a sentinel player like you guys and while I enjoy the class I feel somewhat annoyed by it in several scenarios. First and foremost, at operator ix, zealous strike seems to fail on cores in the sense that it does the animation halfway and stops. Merciless slash behaves the same and masterstrike does the animation but no damage, hence making it available again. This happens once or twice every 10 runs but I do believe it is not something the devs should bury under a carpet.

 

 

Second, I agree with many that merciless ramp time is too long think it was in the forty second area. I did the numbers when 2.0 came out so I may be a bit rusty with the latter point I made. I would also like to note that Watchman is not Combat or Infiltration. It is not a spec based on burst but on DOT effects. Consequently, in my view the ramp time is not as important as the damage lost from our burn nerfs. If they increase the burns back to their previous levels watchman will be competitive again even with the merciless slowpoke build up. This could be a solution for both PVP and PVE where we lose these stacks.

 

 

 

Again, something I mentioned in another thread, can the devs re-evaluate the offhand accuracy ? Even with spot on accuracy the misses are quite many and watchman has quite a few moves with offhand components in it.

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My main is a sent and the one I enjoy the most, I play combat on PVE. My biggest issue with the RNG for slaughter/HOJ is when you have a moving target is difficult and nearly impossible to have a steady rotation, for example on Kephess as a melee dps we have to keep moving after kephess while the tank positions him near a pylon, this makes the combat rotation a big mess. my solution is that instead of having a RNG defendant gore/PS window, have slaughter/HOJ either reduce the CD of gore/PS or increase the length of the window, this would provide more fluidity to the entire rotation.
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My main is a sent and the one I enjoy the most, I play combat on PVE. My biggest issue with the RNG for slaughter/HOJ is when you have a moving target is difficult and nearly impossible to have a steady rotation, for example on Kephess as a melee dps we have to keep moving after kephess while the tank positions him near a pylon, this makes the combat rotation a big mess. my solution is that instead of having a RNG defendant gore/PS window, have slaughter/HOJ either reduce the CD of gore/PS or increase the length of the window, this would provide more fluidity to the entire rotation.

 

 

Do you have these issues in the majority of boss fights?

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Congrats KBN and thanks for your representation!

 

I would be pleased with the questions your put forth. If you are fishing for other interesting topics I've got a question on how/if the Dev team plans to give Alacrity value for Knights & Warriors. I guess it's not really a Sentinel specific question and isn't applicable in 2.0 given alacrity's value related to the other tertiary stats. But in their current implementation it will have ZERO value other than allowing us to Strike/Assault faster.... I view that as a problem because I'm not a fan of using Strike/Assault spam.

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My main is a sent and the one I enjoy the most, I play combat on PVE. My biggest issue with the RNG for slaughter/HOJ is when you have a moving target is difficult and nearly impossible to have a steady rotation, for example on Kephess as a melee dps we have to keep moving after kephess while the tank positions him near a pylon, this makes the combat rotation a big mess. my solution is that instead of having a RNG defendant gore/PS window, have slaughter/HOJ either reduce the CD of gore/PS or increase the length of the window, this would provide more fluidity to the entire rotation.

I parse consistently higher on NiMKephess while in Combat compared to Watchman, especially for the movement phases (that may be because I can do all my burst while he is down though). So I don't think Combat has any big disadvantages there.

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I switched to watchman with 2.0 from combat. A large part of that was watchman's greatly increased fluidity and the utter chaos that combat had become both because of rng and perpetual focus starvation. I got tired of HoJ proc'ing on force leap right as i started and what not. Also watchman's damage output debuff on the boss and sustained rather than burst dps model is a lot more tank friendly and the group heals are a nice help to the healers too. As my guild moves into doing NiM perhaps I'll have to move back to combat for sheer dps reasons, but unless your group is weak in dps or aoe it seems that watchman is the pve spec to be.

 

That said i will parrot what other people have said about the merciless stacks. Phase switches can be rough on those stacks atm especially given that one dps does not have sole control over how fast things die. For instance Olok the shadow the middle part with the droids or the lightning adds in Styrak. If those adds go down at an awkward time the buff is going to fade. With olok it isnt such that large a deal as it like almost all of hm is super easy on dps, but with styrak i panic a bit when i see our scoundrel healer coming to help on my ghost. I dont want that guy to die before i get off a final mercliess.

 

This goes back to what Oofalong asked above, should sentinels be encouraged to be proficient in all the specs and respec between boss fights or is Biowares intent that all the fights be friendly to all the specs? Perhaps I'm too attached to the nice pve utility watchman has and should just relearn combat for certain fights, but that brings us back to the rng issues with combat.

 

And also ill agree with oofalong on the mdps in raids thing. I want a fight where i feel im more useful on a sent than a gunslinger for a mechanic not inspiration.

 

So my questions would be:

 

1) Is Bioware considering lengthening the time on merciless?

 

2) Is Bioware working on making HoJ triggering more player based?

 

3) Does BW intend to make bosses that actively encourage mdps?

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I'm a fan of this methodology. Each are plenty viable, but of course each is superior in one facet. This enables no one spec to be the all-around best. Sort of a Jack-Of All, master of One.

 

Next, I ponder the purpose and value of three unique DPS specs...

 

Since this is a pure DPS class should the three available specs be viable in every situation? In an extreme example of this, if the three classes were all equally viable, then there would be nothing unique to each of them.

 

Previously, the Devs said they targeted 5% damage difference between classes, which presumably also means a 5% disparity between each spec within the same class. However how is this defined - on the combat dummy, throughout an operation, or in a Warzone?

 

On some level I really like the idea of Watchman/Annihilation as the the single target sustained DPS spec, Combat/Carnage as the burst DPS spec, and Focus/Rage as the AoE spec. If this were the case, it would provide maximum flexibility as I would be able to spec into the most optimal DPS role for whatever I was doing.

 

Unfortunately, this all but eliminates Watchman/Annihilation's value in PvP and Focus/Rage's value in most Operations. In theory, we'd still have two viable choices for PvE and two viable choices for PvP. In reality, we are not too far off from this right now...

 

Maybe the solution is to further differentiate or specialize the different specs. Based on the current state, I think this would require some changes to Combat/Carnage. It's sustained single target DPS is simply too high so increase its burst further and nerf its non-burst damage? This would probably also make it more attractive in PvP...

Edited by Sprgmr
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Something to think about with Annihilation/Watchmen if we decrease the build up time of Juyo/Annihilator/Merciless stacks.

 

e.g. Say we halve the time taken. It currently takes 40 (?) seconds to build up those Annihilator/Merciless stacks, if we halve the time (to 20 seconds), we will have an extra 20 seconds at full DPS mode.

 

I haven't looked through enough parses to know what our full DPS mode average is, but currently the DPS difference between Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman DPS including the build up time is fairly minimal (at least on dummies) .

 

I think we want to keep them even somehow - thus if they do decrease the build up time, don't be surprised if they nerf something else while they're balancing.

Edited by surharijan
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Something to think about with Annihilation/Watchmen if we decrease the build up time of Juyo/Annihilator/Merciless stacks.

 

e.g. Say we halve the time taken. It currently takes 40 (?) seconds to build up those Annihilator/Merciless stacks, if we halve the time (to 20 seconds), we will have an extra 20 seconds at full DPS mode.

 

I haven't looked through enough parses to know what our full DPS mode average is, but currently the DPS difference between Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman DPS including the build up time is fairly minimal (at least on dummies) .

 

I think we want to keep them even somehow - thus if they do decrease the build up time, don't be surprised if they nerf something else while they're balancing.

 

I think it would be better to just give 3-5 seconds more on the stacks and see how it goes. Not all specs need to work everywhere.

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