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PT/VG Tank Spreadsheet including accurate relic effects for 2.0


Redklaw

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https://skydrive.live.com/redir?page=view&resid=9E1F1DEAAA7C7AFE!389&authkey=!AO8-ABtTd9YYs9o

 

UPDATE 7/8/2013: Fixed mitigation formula and adjusted absorb gain from skills. Bug with time duration on defense clicky relic is fixed as well. Thanks Kitru, Dipstik, Metallic, and Fire-breath for poking at my errors.

 

Just updated my PT/VG spreadsheet for 2.0, it now includes a comprehensive relic section that allows you to optimize your stats for maximum mean mitigation while accounting for the effects of relics.

 

The effects of relics are calculated based on non-concurrent up-times in this this spreadsheet, which is the ideal situation. This also calculate relic effects based on an infinite duration fight; you will notice a greater mean mitigation increase via relics based on lower engagement time or tank swaps due to increased relic up-times.

 

The stat optimization section also includes a section based on relic usage, as the optimal values will be slightly different based on what relics you are using. For example using a Relic of Fortunate Redoubt slightly devalues defense rating's overall increase to mean mitigation.

 

This is still a work in progress, if there is any interest in having this spreadsheet built for other classes let me know!

 

-Redklaw

Edited by Redklaw
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Under Absorb Quantity/Skills am I reading that your overall time-weighted Absorb bonus from heat blast and the 3 pre-blast procs are assumed to be +17%? I'm curious to see what uptime PTs/Vanguards in live conditions are actually seeing. Edited by MGNMTTRN
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Under Absorb Quantity/Skills am I reading that your overall time-weighted Absorb bonus from heat blast and the 3 pre-blast procs are assumed to be +17%? I'm curious to see what uptime PTs/Vanguards in live conditions are actually seeing.

 

I did the math here. While you're tanking a target, you're going to see ~14.6% Absorb from Energy Blast and 1.73% from Power Screen, which is 16.33%. The 17% is a *slight* overestimation but that math was done while ignoring the fact that HS has a *substantially* better proc rate than the other attacks do because it's a larger number of attacks (68% compared to 15%) because I couldn't find a decent weighted use chance. If you factor that in, 17% is about right.

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I did the math here. While you're tanking a target, you're going to see ~14.6% Absorb from Energy Blast and 1.73% from Power Screen, which is 16.33%. The 17% is a *slight* overestimation but that math was done while ignoring the fact that HS has a *substantially* better proc rate than the other attacks do because it's a larger number of attacks (68% compared to 15%) because I couldn't find a decent weighted use chance. If you factor that in, 17% is about right.

 

This was originally going to be an edit, but Kitru responded so fast. The gist of this post is, 16.33% or 17% sounds right based upon my parses but I think the results of one guy (me) and the model of one guy (Kitru) need to be corroborated by other Vanguards/PTs.

 

Looking at two recent HM SNV and HM TFB runs (ignoring ops chief, olok, and the horror; I should have ignored OP IX but I didn't), I saw heat blast uptimes between 47% on Dash'rode and 30% on operator IX. If I assume that my downtime was equally split between a state of +0 absorb, +1 absorb, +2 absorb, and +3 absorb, then I get values slightly lower than +17

15.0681818182 Dash
13.8235294118 T6
13.8620689655 Thrash


12.6851851852 CWL
13.4872881356 Styrak

13.3076923077 DG
11.7966101695 OP IX
12.5033557047 Keph
13.2997275204 TFB

which is an average of 13.31% or 13.23% when the fights are weighted by time...

 

BUT all fights have many factors that contribute to a decrease in functinal eblast uptime: the time at the beginning of a fight while eblast cannot be put on cooldown, button-pushing, forced running out of melee range, time that the other tank has aggro, and plain old waiting time. My assumption of a perfect 25% split between all states of non-heat blast absorb stacks (+0/1/2/3) is also not a good assumption; it's probably weighted heavily toward +2 and +3 absorb. This calculation also assumes that it's not possible to have the +25% eblast and +absorb stacks, which IIRC is wrong. I will check. Edit: yeah, you can build stacks while eblast is still up.

 

So based upon my parses, I have to agree that +16 or 17% absorb from heat blast-related effects when tanking the boss is reasonable. But I still do think other Vanguards/Powertechs need to chime in to confirm that they are seeing similar results. If people don't want to open up a spreadsheet editor but do still want to check their logs, a general rule for calculating uptime is (6*eblast count)/(minutes*60 +sec) should be between 0.35 and 0.45; if not, then either playstyle or this 16/17% estimation needs refinement.

Edited by MGNMTTRN
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I did the math here. While you're tanking a target, you're going to see ~14.6% Absorb from Energy Blast and 1.73% from Power Screen, which is 16.33%. The 17% is a *slight* overestimation but that math was done while ignoring the fact that HS has a *substantially* better proc rate than the other attacks do because it's a larger number of attacks (68% compared to 15%) because I couldn't find a decent weighted use chance. If you factor that in, 17% is about right.

 

Okay, I'll be honest here, 17% was a total guesstimation, surprised I was as close as I am. It was one of the things I was going to test out and verify that was left to be worked on. I mean I literally pulled that number out of the air.

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i love it when everything is on one page, so i can use solver right away. i removed the item changes stuff

 

i got the following for BiS at 2410 stat pool:

in d,s,a format

 

wihtout relic

 

1582.436399

548.4667738

279.0968271

 

with

1508.595197

587.0400063

314.3647971

 

the mitigation equation is based on the following function:

(((((100-H31)*H34)/100)*(1-(H35/100)))*(1-(H27/100)))+(((100-H31)-(((100-H31)*H34)/100))*(1-(H27/100)))

 

i do not see where resist chance, fraction of attacks at 90% accuracy, or a few other things are, but i like the layout and everything, its just that vangaurds are the only tank for which i predict stacking shield augments, yet the solution to maximize mitigation gives a shield rating below the minimum you can get from gear, while increasing your total pool.

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i love it when everything is on one page, so i can use solver right away. i removed the item changes stuff

 

i got the following for BiS at 2410 stat pool:

in d,s,a format

 

wihtout relic

 

1582.436399

548.4667738

279.0968271

 

with

1508.595197

587.0400063

314.3647971

 

the mitigation equation is based on the following function:

(((((100-H31)*H34)/100)*(1-(H35/100)))*(1-(H27/100)))+(((100-H31)-(((100-H31)*H34)/100))*(1-(H27/100)))

 

i do not see where resist chance, fraction of attacks at 90% accuracy, or a few other things are, but i like the layout and everything, its just that vangaurds are the only tank for which i predict stacking shield augments, yet the solution to maximize mitigation gives a shield rating below the minimum you can get from gear, while increasing your total pool.

 

I'm not seeing how accounting for accuracy or resist chance would modify the results. These values are fixed in combat and they don't have a diminishing effect any of the variable tank stats (D/S/A). Think of the mean mitigation calculation as a calculation that factors against only hits that actually go through defensive rolls, since calculating for other potential damage has no overall effect on stat balancing.

 

Pretty much armor rating versus non defensible attacks, and base chance for the boss to miss / resist are not part of the pool being analyzed; rather this is a calculation of mitigation against the pool that stat balancing would effect.

 

(TL;DR: I'm lazy and I don't feel like adding the additional math when I don't feel like it will in any way effect the end results.)

 

Also there is a small fix I need to put in regarding up-times for the click relics, I didn't realize that the S/A click and the Defense click had different up-time values. One of the two is currently netting much more overall mean mitigation value than it should; however, neither of those are currently competitive against the old static war hero pvp relics. Changing the +32 power to +32 defense would make them competitive, I hope that's a bug that will be fixed soon.

Edited by Redklaw
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Changing the +32 power to +32 defense would make them competitive, I hope that's a bug that will be fixed soon.

 

It's not a bug. It's part and parcel of the design intent to make the content drop relics explicitly *better* than the standard purchasable relics. The only reason the Def proc relic is explicitly better than the Abs proc relic is because of the passive Def instead of the passive Power. Honestly, I'd be happier if there were *more* "superior" relic options than just the Fort Redoubt and Seren Assault, such as if all of the relics had a purchasable variant with the non-desirable secondary stat and the only way to get the relics with the secondary stat you actually *want* is through content drops. It would require them creating more relics (hell, they could just use the naming conventions as they are now and then add the term "elite" for those that drop in content), but it would be a much more interesting loot construct.

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those values do affect the bis calc. taking into account the percent of damage that is at 90%$ accuracy affects the value of defense. resist chance changes the value of shield.

 

this is what i have been using to calc bis:

 

all of this assumes:

38.965% of damage is melee/ranged kinetic/energy at 90% accuracy

38.965% of damage is melee/ranged kinetic/energy at 100% accuracy

20.7% of damage is force.tech kinetic/energy damage

1.37% of damage is force/tech internal/elemetal damage

 

light armor: 3107

heavy: 5869

 

post armor mitigation:

(0.7793*(1-dr)*(0.5*(1-d-0.1)*(1-s*a)+0.5*(1-d)*(1-s*a))+0.207*(1-dr)*(1-r)*(1-s*a)+0.0137*(1-ir)*(1-r))

 

where d-0.1 from is from 90% accuracy attack, 0.5 from fraction melee/ranged kinetic/energy at 90% accuracy

dr is damage reduction form armor, to kinetic and energy damage

d is defense fraction

s is shield fraction

a is absorb fraction

ir is internal resistance

r is resiatance

 

and for 2400 my bis is:

 

Defense 794

Shield 978

Absorb 628

 

 

very much different than yours.

Edited by dipstik
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About that shield/energyblast. Kitru is correct. The % of absorb should be around 17%.

However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill. Total absorb rating gained by skills is 17%+4%= 21%

 

About the frequency of blasting:

I can tell you that in practise I blast about every 10 seconds (minimum is 9 seconds). But taking human error into account would be difficult. If thats the case then goodluck with shadow calcs. If you are out of your lazy mood you can always make a choice button about how fast the user normally clicks his/her blast.

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However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill.

 

Actually, no, I didn't. I specifically referenced Energy Blast and Power Screen. The sum total of *those* two effects is 17%. I didn't mention the 4% passive whatsoever nor did the post the I quoted to actually provide the numbers I did. I actually didn't even look at the OP's spreadsheet (I don't really need to use one) and was simply referring to the 17% number that MGN was referring to (specifically, from Energy Blast and Power Screen) in *his* post (hence why I quoted *him* rather than the OP).

 

Basically, I wasn't referencing 17% as a total value but rather *only* as the sum of EB and PS (the variable uptime abilities). I even broke down the relevant contributions of the individual pieces so that it was *obvious* I wasn't including the passives.

 

I don't really get involved in the spreadsheeting of things. I've never check or used *any* of them since I'm perfectly capable of parsing all of the factors myself. If they need to know the contributions of specific mechanisms to put *into* their spreadsheets, I'm perfectly capable and willing to provide it (which is what I've always done), but I've got no interest (nor have I *ever*) of going through individual spreadsheets to validate every piece of information within them.

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About that shield/energyblast. Kitru is correct. The % of absorb should be around 17%.

However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill. Total absorb rating gained by skills is 17%+4%= 21%

 

About the frequency of blasting:

I can tell you that in practise I blast about every 10 seconds (minimum is 9 seconds). But taking human error into account would be difficult. If thats the case then goodluck with shadow calcs. If you are out of your lazy mood you can always make a choice button about how fast the user normally clicks his/her blast.

 

The original guesstimation was 13% from the two skills added to the 4% from ablative. I'm not sure if I should up that to 17% for a total of 21% or about 18-20% or so. I agree with the previous poster that more testing is required. I'd rather go with average optimal values here, since if you're bothering to do the math, you probably are pretty good with your rotation.

 

those values do affect the bis calc. taking into account the percent of damage that is at 90%$ accuracy affects the value of defense. resist chance changes the value of shield.

 

STUFF

 

You've convinced me; I will be updating the spreadsheet to include these factors. Thanks for the extra work :p. Where do you're assumptions come from btw, extrapolated from parses?

Edited by Redklaw
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I'm not sure if I should up that to 17% for a total of 21% or about 18-20% or so.

 

I would say you should go with 20.5% total. My math says it's 16.33%, but, as stated before, it's actually a mite low because of not including HS due to insufficient information. A .17% increase is conservative guesstimate for how much it improves.

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Lol, sry for not being clear Kitru. In my post I was referencing this part and not you. The 'you' in the post I made was MGNMTTRN

 

Under Absorb Quantity/Skills am I reading that your overall time-weighted Absorb bonus from heat blast and the 3 pre-blast procs are assumed to be +17%? I'm curious to see what uptime PTs/Vanguards in live conditions are actually seeing.

 

So ....... I think my post quoted below makes more sense now ;-)

 

About that shield/energyblast. Kitru is correct. The % of absorb should be around 17%.

However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill. Total absorb rating gained by skills is 17%+4%= 21%

 

About the frequency of blasting:

I can tell you that in practise I blast about every 10 seconds (minimum is 9 seconds). But taking human error into account would be difficult. If thats the case then goodluck with shadow calcs. If you are out of your lazy mood you can always make a choice button about how fast the user normally clicks his/her blast.

 

The original guesstimation was 13% from the two skills added to the 4% from ablative. I'm not sure if I should up that to 17% for a total of 21% or about 18-20% or so. I agree with the previous poster that more testing is required. I'd rather go with average optimal values here, since if you're bothering to do the math, you probably are pretty good with your rotation.

 

You're the boss, boss :)

Without kidding, yes, I'm not bad at rotation. I might not be the best tank ever, but I try to click energyblast off cd when I tank something.

 

I was in the midst of adapting your shield for my own use. But since you are going to update it i'll wait.

The only problem I had is that I dont know how the internal resistance is being calculated.

 

set bonus: 2% resistance, 2% defense

resist buff: 10% internal resistance

 

 

Some testing I did:

Here is vid of me being wacked on by some mobs to see how long the cd lasted.

 

Log from an ops bossfight in which I averaged out on 10,67 seconds effective cd after removing the times I didnt had something to tank. I happy to get you some more details from parses.

 

 

 

22:34:06.283 24 0

22:34:20.132 38 14

22:34:33.827 51 13

22:34:44.324 62 11

22:35:09.766 87

22:35:35.299 113

22:35:46.111 124 11

22:35:58.917 136 12

22:36:09.721 147 11

22:36:19.995 157 10

22:36:31.201 169 12

22:36:40.353 178 9

22:36:54.613 192 14

22:37:18.384 216

22:37:28.669 226 10

22:37:39.113 237 11

22:37:50.421 248 11

22:38:11.480 269

22:38:22.474 280 11

 

 

 

Looking at two recent HM SNV and HM TFB runs (ignoring ops chief, olok, and the horror; I should have ignored OP IX but I didn't), I saw heat blast uptimes between 47% on Dash'rode and 30% on operator IX. If I assume that my downtime was equally split between a state of +0 absorb, +1 absorb, +2 absorb, and +3 absorb, then I get values slightly lower than +17

 

<snip>

 

So based upon my parses, I have to agree that +16 or 17% absorb from heat blast-related effects when tanking the boss is reasonable. But I still do think other Vanguards/Powertechs need to chime in to confirm that they are seeing similar results. If people don't want to open up a spreadsheet editor but do still want to check their logs, a general rule for calculating uptime is (6*eblast count)/(minutes*60 +sec) should be between 0.35 and 0.45; if not, then either playstyle or this 16/17% estimation needs refinement.

 

I quickly watched your Dashrood upload. If I remove 1 energyblast that took you 20 seconds to reapply then you are averaging out on 10,7 second.

Hereby I chime in with saying, yes energyblast is about 17% extra absorb with a bit of human error melded into it

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Where do you're assumptions come from btw, extrapolated from parses?

 

basically going through skill trees and ability lists, talking with people with those classes (i dont have a VG on live) and making sure all the numbers line up, talking to people about their rotation to see how often you can execute this or that. alot of it has come from posting my assumptions (which very few people do) and having people like kbn and kitru chime in on something missing etc.. you can see the list of stuff i have for vanguards in my 2.2 tank builds thread.

 

the way in which rolls work and the states associated with the rolls is all info developed over the history of the game from dev posts and gamers trying to figure out the mechanics, and form the mechanics we can craft models. and the bis numbers i suggest are just based on the model.

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Lol, sry for not being clear Kitru. In my post I was referencing this part and not you. The 'you' in the post I made was MGNMTTRN

Under Absorb Quantity/Skills am I reading that your overall time-weighted Absorb bonus from heat blast and the 3 pre-blast procs are assumed to be +17%? I'm curious to see what uptime PTs/Vanguards in live conditions are actually seeing.

For what it's worth, I don't think I forgot the +4 absorb; in my post I was only writing about the +25% energy blast and the max +3% from power screen stacks. If the +17% absorb in the spreadsheet is encompassing both energy blast effects and ceramic plating, that is probably too low. Assuming other Vanguards have a similar playstyle to me, the minimum contribution would be ~13.25 + 4 = 17.25. I call this the minimum because this is an adversarial position: I assumed that players were spending an unhealthy amount of time at +0 absorb, and in many of those fights I was not proccing energy blast as often as I could for some reason.

 

I think this discussion is revealing that Energy Blast will need a more complex model in the future.

As Fire-Breath's video shows, and as can probably imagine, the cooldown of energy blast will depend enormously upon the conditions of the specific fights we'll find ourselves in. The situation where you find yourself beset by 3 or 4+ weak enemies is well-suited to a Vanguard, because your probability of reducing energy blast cooldown scales up slightly (though that upscaling has DR) with each additional enemy that attacks you; compare to Shadows, whose HTPS makes up a more significant portion of their mitigation and doesn't scale much with damage taken; these people effectively have an incentive to tank as few enemies as possible.

 

Suppose in the future an operation is released where a very weak add does 100 DPS against me and his attacks all have a 90% accuracy; since his attacks have a high chance of hitting me, they also have a high chance of being shielded. Now I'm taking an extra 100 DPS, but he could be shifting my energy blast uptime from 6/10.5 = 0.57 to 6/(10.5-1.5) = 0.66. Depending upon the damage that I'm receiving from the boss, actually keeping this weak add up might be a good investment for my survivability, both for minimizing spike damage and minimizing overall DTPS, because his flat 100 extra DTPS might allow me to take one or two more boss strikes that are not only shielded, but shielded with the +25% absorb bonus from energy blast.

 

Vanguards/PTs also can stagger their absorb bonuses to temporarily minimize spike damage. For example, if I see that my absorb relic has procced (+x absorb for 6 seconds, 20 sec cooldown) I might delay the cast of my energy blast by 2 or 3 seconds, until the effect of the absorb relic has faded, so I can maintain a steadier absorb%. Whether this can actually be a useful practice will depend upon the size of that +x that absorb proc relics will bestow in the future, and upon the amount of spike damage that future operations will have.

 

To account for the variety of factors that affect energy blast effective cooldown, I'd suggest applying the +4 absorb from ceramic plating, assuming that power screen gives an average of +2 absorb over time, and then let energy blast's uptime be specified as anything from 80% to 35%, default 6/11 = 0.54.

 

The current models of energy blast assume a fixed shield and/or an energy blast cooldown that is independent of shield, but energy blast's cooldown will decrease by a non-negligible amount as we gear up and as shield% increases. In the future, for those of you heavily involved in modelling DTPS - HPS, relics, and spike damage, this will be a relevant change you will need to enact.

Edited by MGNMTTRN
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https://skydrive.live.com/redir?page=view&resid=9E1F1DEAAA7C7AFE!389&authkey=!AO8-ABtTd9YYs9o

 

Updated the spreadsheet with better formula's to calculate mean mitigation, also pushed up the the total absorb rating bonus from 17% to 20.5%. Thanks everyone for the feedback, it's been much appreciated, keep it coming :).

 

STUFF

 

I'm finding myself reserving rs/hib and rocket punch when heat blast is close to coming off cooldown, HIB seems to normally grant 2 stacks (possibly due to proximity procs from the autocleave?, I need to look at my fights / logs closer) and rocket punch grants one stack automatically. I personally have very little downtime between 3 stacks heat screen and the heat blast effect. This may be something I'm overestimating on how often actually happens for the third stack to fill; since I'm only really noticing it when I pay attention to that portion of my rotation, and I'm biased to be unaware of when I'm not paying attention to my rotation. The cooldown reductions on HB/EB are something I'm just not paying attention to at all however.

 

The usage of relics for burst mitigation is one of the primary reasons I originally built this sheet, since the effect of boosting is magnified when in a fight due to reduced time on agro (tank swaps, rest mechanics, etc). Pretty much with most raid mechanics you can treat almost all damage as spike damage, since you rarely don't have some type of cool-down running. I also want to add the effect of adrenals for this reason in addition to the effect they have on stat balancing.

 

Eventually I want to migrate this spreadsheet to a MSVC program, which will make modeling more complex damage mechanics easier. I really haven't had time lately to start porting things over, but soon...

 

Btw just noticed that was you Metallic :)! Feel free to hop in our mumble or whisper me if you catch errors or anything else that you think needs to be added / changed.

Edited by Redklaw
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