Nerfing guard by half is almost similar to removing it. We need something to counter swift 3v1 kills or else all arenas will be sorc healers only, due to them being able to stand the same amount of damage twice due to force barrier, and they will also have to pick the forgotten barrier-healing utility or else they will be stunned during bastion and killed from their 10% right after. Arenas will become stun+burst healer 1st to win. And "strategy" will be limited to "let's stunburst the mara 1st, they will never see it coming, lol", and when people realize guards and taunts aren't enough to matter tanks will be abandoned completely like pyrotechs.

As for the suggestion to make tanks with "active tools for defending" I feel like I am repeating myself when I say this is not how all PVE content was designed. Tanks should spend their time targeting enemies and controlling the targeting of the enemies, not targeting friendly players and casting bubbles, sorcs do that. Changing tanks to "defenders" rather than, well, have no better word than "tanks", defensive things who make enemies attack them instead of their squishier DPS and healer comrades. The current function of guard is the only way in which a player can compel enemy players to switch away target from one ally (no one else can do it for anyone but himself), which is the closest thing to seriously forcing their targeting otherwise like taunt does on mobs, and is also damaging the tank, as the result of taunting enemy mobs would make them damage the tank. You are already suggesting to overhaul most numbers and abilities in the game spec-wise, which will probably never happen. Add to that the need to adjust all PVE content to match the new play style tanks will adapt (if they focus friends, they probably are too busy to maintain agro, kite bosses, tank swap, move boss to a specific location on specific time, taunt in 0.5s notice due to a mistake, they just won't be able to do it all at once as the game currently is...

Skilled players do not need to defend advantages, only bads...

No, the bads are here sitting on the forums complaining about mechanics that have been in the game since release.

It is my personal opinion thst nerfing guard by half would kill tanking in PvP. I am one of the few that run a skank as a tank anyway, the overwhelming majority of guards are from the squshiest dps specs in the game any way.

Maybe rather than complaining about guard we should worry about balancing DCDs amongst the dps classes. Tell me how, exactly, a PT dps and a merc dps have even slightly similar DCDs.

Mara being the one advanced class I do not have (as I strongly prefer guardians and every time I try to level a sent I find myself thinking I could be playing a Guardian) so I do not know exactly what it is that makes them good, but whatever they have seems far more effective than my self heal when I was running vigi. To my understanding we both have ward, guardians have reflect, enure, and focused defense. Enure is a joke in PvP. Focused defense scaled so poorly in 5 0 for dps it's almost pathetic now, and reflect is supposed to be our anti focus but no one pays attention to it really.

Sniper, they are less up front tanky and more of a manage to stay out of range type. Mercs are the face tanks.

The reason for skanking is half that tank gear is useless and half that dps specs of tank capable classes, quite frankly, get focused in seconds. Maybe fix that first?

It is not

 

I think the thousand of players in Arena fights experiencing majority of matches ending in ties shred any notion of this being a L2P issue. Maybe you are just cognitively lazy and don't want complicated solutions for complex problems?

 

Lets imagine that if this was easy to fix, it would have been.. So.. it is not easy to fix, that suggest a complex problem right?

 

Mr. L2P ^^

Where are your thousands of players? I am seeing maybe three here. The same three that have been complaining since July.

I know that i've found my own solution to this problem and haven't lost a match in maybe four weeks. This is against good teams, bad teams, guarded healers, no healers, take your pick.

So maybe it is that simple.

No, the bads are here sitting on the forums complaining about mechanics that have been in the game since release.

Guard was given to DPS builds of the tank classes in an update, I believe it was with the no hybrid trees.

Got Phasewalk? Air Strike?

Guard was given to DPS builds of the tank classes in an update, I believe it was with the no hybrid trees.

 

Got Phasewalk? Air Strike?

So what you're saying is a dps guarded healer is giving you problems? Maybe pvp isn't for you.

Guard was given to DPS builds of the tank classes in an update, I believe it was with the no hybrid trees.

 

Got Phasewalk? Air Strike?

It was with 5.0.

Prior to that guard went with stance.

I'm certain of this because I started maining vigi in PvP out of protest to this change.

The trees becoming disciplines was before.

Skilled players do not need to defend advantages, only bads...

Would you kindly at least make an attempt to, like Mannok (who shares your opinion), be logical?

Maybe I should say "Skilled players do not need to complain about enemy advantages, as they can just work through it with their skill, only bads... :p"

I am a tank, and I guard people. These people aren't as invincible as some seem to claim. When I see other tanks guarding people, I don't outright give up on the chance to get enemies killed.

[Warning, long story. Skip if you don't like PVP stories ]

In fact, I personally managed to solo a Mara who was guarded by a PT tank with my mere, stealthed out and came back to get the tank to 3% before their healer arrived, all with non-skank tank. I will admit they were not THAT great, but they didn't totally suck and I still was supposed to deal only half damage to the mara while he + the pt damage only me. So how did I do that? I pushed the PT down the edge (it was novare east side, I took the fight to the cliff for that sole purpose), and I gain some seconds with guard out of range. The PT eventually makes it back, and I exploited his guard to damage him with the mara. At some point the PT suddenly ran away for supposedly no reason, while the mara started running toward the medpack. Shrouded against the obvious-to-me pull which indeed happened 2s later, leaving the pt uselessly in 30m range, and rushed toward the mara immediatly to make the pt out of jumping range, running slowly, caught up with the mara, took the medpack, while the pt was back the mara was already low enough for me not to care about the guarrd and kill him, stealth, cc pt so he cant regen, regen behind a wall (not fully, didn't want the pt to start the regen), and got back to the fight, only retreating when their damn healer arrived.

Why did I tell all that? Because the only reason I managed to kill the mara was the 2 uptimes that I got with the PT far away. I got both for a combination of their mistakes and my wits, and this is what "strategy" is about. You don't get that kind of strategy when fighting only DPSes, or a DPS and a healer, you get number contests. Removing tanks will just remove the thinking from PVP, and while some people hate thinking, some play only due to those aspects. We are not protecting our advantage, we are protecting the tank role. A role among the 3 roles in this game which should have its rightful place in all aspects of the game, PVP included, like it or not.

So what you're saying is a dps guarded healer is giving you problems? Maybe pvp isn't for you.

Lol I've been telling them since July to go kill the squishy idiot who tries to guard as a dps spec of a tank capable class. They die or or remove the guard. But no apparently that is too much strategizing for them.

I am a tank, and I guard people. These people aren't as invincible as some seem to claim. When I see other tanks guarding people, I don't outright give up on the chance to get enemies killed.

 

We are not protecting our advantage, we are protecting the tank role. A role among the 3 roles in this game which should have its rightful place in all aspects of the game, PVP included, like it or not.

I've been trying to get this point across on this thread since July. They're just not listening or don't care.

II think the thousand of players in Arena fights experiencing majority of matches ending in ties shred any notion of this being a L2P issue. ^

Are we discussing the same PVP here everyone? Because I could have sworn you said most arena matches end with ties.

My personal experience is 5 out of 100+ reg arenas were ties and 4 out of around 70 ranked, excluding acid stealth trolls, that is (though insufficient-DPS ties do tend to happen more than once when they do happen, that is true).

We are discussing SWTOR, right? Ground PVP of SWTOR?

Lol I've been telling them since July to go kill the squishy idiot who tries to guard as a dps spec of a tank capable class. They die or or remove the guard. But no apparently that is too much strategizing for them.

Both you and the person you quoted maybe need to review your PvP lessons yourself. That DPS won't be taking damage much different because PvP damage is not mitigated in the same way.

So your smug implication that the DPS will drop like a rock is in fact not real. Now you understand why tanks stats are not really used in PvP.

Both you and the person you quoted maybe need to review your PvP lessons yourself. That DPS won't be taking damage much different because PvP damage is not mitigated in the same way.

 

So your smug implication that the DPS will drop like a rock is in fact not real. Now you understand why tanks stats are not really used in PvP.

Whoever does the guarding takes 150% damage. Which is, if anything, mitigated less in PvP than in pve. I spent a long time dpsing, with focus I have helped kill stupid dps like I decribe through guard damage alone.

Now who needs to review their PvP lessons?

Both you and the person you quoted maybe need to review your PvP lessons yourself. That DPS won't be taking damage much different because PvP damage is not mitigated in the same way.

 

So your smug implication that the DPS will drop like a rock is in fact not real. Now you understand why tanks stats are not really used in PvP.

Wait, are you really saying all the skank tanks in pvp, that all these thousands of people are complaining about, are wasting their time because they'd be able to do the same type of guarding if they were dps spec? that's. literally. laughable.

you've heard it here guys, skank tanking is dead. /thread.

I think Burst dmg should be lowered by the same amount as Guard to prevent these things from happening as often. This should be part of rebalancing if Guard was "nerfed" or it makes no sense tbh

 

A Tool could be a progressive taunt similar to Force Crush that ends at 90% over a short period (values could be changed for pve) An ability that healed Guarded target by 50% Health and an ability completely prevented dmg for 4 secs as well. Crazy dmg boost to a certain attack, when guard had prevented x dmg. But hey that just me wouldn't mind a swtor 2.0'ish

I don't see them restructuring the entire game at this point.

Honestly despite my screaming for it everywhere for over a year now, I don't see them making tank gear useful in PvP. Much less restructuring every tank ability just for PvP.

So we're stuck with things thst are simple number changes.

Nerf Guard! to 25% in PvP and remove it from dps specs!

 

Well! we tried. I hope my arguments were on point! I believe my logic is sound and that going back on some of the craziest Defensive Cooldowns, will need a nerf to Guard and Burst dps to be meaningful. Giving 100% resolve after a Hard stun properly never happens, but would be good as well. Losing control and dying is the definition of bad design.

 

Hope a devs gets by this post at some point I admit to exggerating majority as ties in arenas, because we all know burst and double cc wins all day long, that is why we play burst only dps with OP def CDs to counter.

 

Have fun Guys!

I'd be perfectly content if they removed it from dps specs, i just also don't really think that would help your problems lol.

I personally feel that the nerf to 25% would make tanking worthless, but at this point, we're both hypothesizing anyway. I too believe my logic is sound, and therein lies the issue, reasonable people don't always agree.

Both you and the person you quoted maybe need to review your PvP lessons yourself. That DPS won't be taking damage much different because PvP damage is not mitigated in the same way.

PVP lesson!!!

Attack types: M/R and F/T

{

roll 1: will the attack hit? (0-100) =>

{

[Warning: Obvious line] Rolling within the chance to hit will result in a hit, rolling out of it will result in a miss.

M/R: accuracy of attacker - defense of target = chance to hit. Defense of defender = 0 if stunned

F/T: accuracy of attacker - resist of target (resist is usually 0) = chance to hit.

Note: an attack missing means it's effect are also not applied, for example, a stun being resisted means you don't get stunned, push being resisted means you dont get pushed, etc. Resisted damaging abilities will still interrupt objective captures, though.

} // end roll1

} //end attack type

Damage types: Energy/Kinetic (E/K) and Internal/Elemental (I/E) [i/E damage only comes from Dots and certain F/T attacks. There is no direct M/R ability which deals I/E damage]

{

Passive damage reduction =>

{

E/K: Damage is reduced by the damage reduction % that you can see on character sheets, which is affected by armor. [Armor penetrations reduces that %]

I/E: Damage is reduced by the I/E damage reduction % which you can see when hovering over damage reduction. Unaffected by armor. Inquisitor buff increases this reduction by 10% further reductions come from some abilities, utilities, and disciplines.

} // end passive damage reduction

roll 2: what will the damage type be? (0-100) =>

{

E/K: This one gets a bit complicated. Both the attacker's critical chance and the defender's shield chance [for defenders who are tanks] are factored into the same roll. Let's say the DPS has 30% crit and the tank has 40% shield, and let's assume the roll puts crit from 0 upward and shield from 100 downward, though it wouldn't make a difference if it is the opposite way. That means a roll within the crit area (0-30) will result in a critical hit (which gets increased by the crit multiplier % of the attacker). A roll within the shielding area (60-100) will result in a shielded hit (which gets then mitigated by the absorb % of the target), and a roll within the middle area (30-60) will result in a normal hit. If the crit and shield are so great that they ovelap, for example, 45% crit and 60% shield would result in crit covering 0-45 and shield covering 40-100, then the winner is crit (which means hits within 40-45 will be crit and not shielded).

I/E: Same like E/K except for that there is no shield roll even for tanks. The chance to crit equals the crit chance % of the attacker, and any damage with roll within the range will crit, rest will be normal damage. This is mostly noticed by the majority of dots in the game that never get shielded, this is why tanks seem to take dots almost as hard as everyone else.

Note: When for any reason crit chance is above 100% (usually when you got an auto-crit proc), the % other 100 will be added to the multiplier, because we already know the attack will crit (so 130% chance means the multiplier is increased by 30% for this hit. This is the reason why auto-crits always hit harder than the same ability hitting a normal critical hit (deception 30k maul, for example).

} // end of roll 2

} // end of damage types

Now with guard, the rolls are all made on the guarded target and no further rolls are made for the 50% that goes for the tank (I say tank but speak of the guy who uses the guard in general). So if the guarded guy took a critical 30k, the guard doesn't care the number is a result of a crit roll, it will direct 15k at you. If guard damage goes through anything at all, it is maybe (need to check this one) through passive damage reduction, which is indeed better for tanks but for DPS and healers, not so much. Guard damage also goes through the "will attack hit" roll (roll 1) and therefore can damage a tank while he uses an invincible defensive such as force shroud. Guard damage can also damage a mezzed tank without breaking the mezz, but will get a tank out of stealth on the other hand, so its a lose-lose for the tank. At least it doesn't break objective captures...

So far is why guard is maybe the greatest source of damage for real tanks, because their stats make damage directed at them far more mitigated, and when used by DPS, guard still deal half the damage of the guarded target to the guarder, and to that the damage that the guarder himself takes, which is absolutely not reduced any better than a normal DPS (who isn't sooo tanky without DCDs), and the guarder isn't guarded. So if you claim you can kill an unguarded DPS, then you must be able to kill a guarding DPS, because a guarding DPS is essentially unguarded + he takes damage from guard, which equals half the damage that another DPS takes.

So lets say 2 players fight versus a DPS who guards, either 1 target him and the other target his guarded, resulting in 150% damage of a single DPS hitting the guarder and 50% hitting his target, or if they are smarter, both target the guarder and deal him 200% damage of a single DPS, and you say a DPS should manage to kill an unguarded DPS, so if 100% should be enough, 150% or 200% are FAST kills indeed. The 200% is in fact a bit more than 200% if you can hit him with AoEs with his target, so he takes 200% from direct damage, and 300% from AoE (reminding all % are compared to the damage dealt by a single DPS). Cut all these numbers by half if you are alone versus him. In that case you still get 100% damage on him + 150% aoe damage [Which might be dotspreads, by the way, and in that case it will be 150% dot damage too]. Repeating to make sure the message is clear: If your 100% is enough to kill unguarded, it is enough to kill a guarding, because guarding < unguarded, and that is due to guarding always being unguarded, just with a chance of extra damage. If your 100% isn't good enough to kill an unguarded DPS, you should cry for nerfs about DCDs and heals, not guards

So your smug implication that the DPS will drop like a rock is in fact not real.

So I suppose all those dead sins, juggs and pts were just an illusion.

The next is not completely related to the thread's topic, but I couldn't see the following line without responding, I mean seriously:

Now you understand why tanks stats are not really used in PvP.

So I suppose I am just an illusion. So is my 0.3 average deaths per match (regardless of the number of healers and the fact that I queue 95% of the times solo and rarely play as a node guard), occasional 3rd-5th damage in the chart, somehow having snipers and maras far below, and even occasional top damage in reg arenas versus idiots who stack tunneling me as hard as possible as soon as the enemies realized that I am a tank that guardswaps in regs, but me not dying due to all non-crits falling into my shield and well timed DCDs and stuns, are also illusions. And so are the 6/6 goals in huttballs without a healer on my group while the enemy can't believe a non-healed tank can survive such focus [i guard ball carriers from time to time, but it is much easier to guard myself as carrier At least I know to use stun immunities when running on fire ], the solo caps and solo kills, and the solo node-guarding versus 3 people long enough for reinforcements to arrive (and even once gaining a solo kill on 1 of those 3 because all were dps and didn't bother healing my focused one ), all were illusions? I suppose I make amazing edited recordings in my sleep, in that case

Mind that all the above included the benefits or guard only once, and that was in an arena. Do tell me what will a tank do in an arena without guard beside being a slow-paced DPS (deal damage slower, take damage slower, nothing else). Don't go screaming "nerf tanks" now. But the fact that tanks got rare is because people fail to see how to play real tanks these days (style gotta chance if you switch from skank to tank). Thus people forget what it is like to fight a tank, and how to do it properly, giving the few of us left a tactical advantage

I would like this dude Mannock and ppl like him to please take his math degree, and see if he can exchange it for a PS4 and a new game. If you don’t like the way this game works in pvp, and you can’t buy some friends to help strategize against it, stop looking for nerds and buffs and banning oremades or whatever else you wanna waste your time on and just play something else. I’ve been playin a scoundrel/op since forever; I don’t go creating a flavor of the month sniper or a sentinel or whatever else gets the updated Incredible Hulk buff and I don’t ***** and moan and whine. I play pvp to win and I have a ton of friends that help me do this cause they like to win. So forget about eliminating tanks, or eliminating stealth, or eliminating premades and please go eliminate this game from your hardrive.

May the gods bless the guildkiller legacy and Kendra p!

I'd be perfectly content if they removed it from dps specs, i just also don't really think that would help your problems lol.

 

I personally feel that the nerf to 25% would make tanking worthless, but at this point, we're both hypothesizing anyway. I too believe my logic is sound, and therein lies the issue, reasonable people don't always agree.

Yeah, I agree with you totally. DPS specs not having it makes the most sense, but by no means should a tank spec have their guard nerfed. That's thier bread and butter in PVP. They're tanks, it makes perfect sense that they should be able to be that effective guarding one person. Otherwise, what is going to be the draw for playing a true tank?

I can see limiting the guard on a tank that is in DPS gear, but a true tank should have the full guard effect as it is now. Tanks got a really raw deal in PVP and it's so unfair to them, which is why I don't blame people for skank tanking even if it's broken. It makes no sense to do it any other way under the current circumstances. The guard should have a relation to tank stats so in that way make true tanks have a true purpose and be seen as a better option than a skank tank. True tanks should be better at 'tanking'.

A DPSers job is to do damage, not protect people, that's what tanks are for. Time to get the trinity back in order and give Tanks their proper due as the undisputed masters of protection, taunting, and defense and be more of a brick wall than a person.

Hi mathman, first of all your math is off. You have a bunch of numbers there that are unsubstantiated at all ("let's assume that..."). But let's assume that you're correct about your math -- I know you're good at that.

Even if you're right, so what? The whole point of guard is to deter you from attacking someone. Yes, it's 50% less damage for the guarded player... do you try to bludgeon a sent through GBTF, and complain "but he's only taking 1% damage! I can't kill him, and look at my math!"? I hope not.

Here's a solution: instead of tunneling through guard -- and as a result, having to deal more than twice the amount of damage you usually need to -- how about you try to kill the source of the guard? The tank is, funnily enough, not guarded. They can't be if they're guarding someone else. Internal/elemental damage is much less affected by DR than energy/kinetic (DoTs as well as certain heavy hitters such as force breach), force/tech damage is almost immune to defense chance (except defensives more or less), crits ignore shield (and pretty much everyone has more than 50% crit chance in practice with buffs and passives), AND you only need to deal with one target!

Guard is not OP.

1) That is my point, making nerfs to DCDs and healing makes no sense without Nerf to Guard, as Guard would become even stronger and more mandatory... So thank you finally getting the point.

Did you just cut my paragraph and take it to the opposing context?

Full paragraph for Reference, you took the red part only:

"So lets say 2 players fight versus a DPS who guards, either 1 target him and the other target his guarded, resulting in 150% damage of a single DPS hitting the guarder and 50% hitting his target, or if they are smarter, both target the guarder and deal him 200% damage of a single DPS, and you say a DPS should manage to kill an unguarded DPS, so if 100% should be enough, 150% or 200% are FAST kills indeed. The 200% is in fact a bit more than 200% if you can hit him with AoEs with his target, so he takes 200% from direct damage, and 300% from AoE (reminding all % are compared to the damage dealt by a single DPS). Cut all these numbers by half if you are alone versus him. In that case you still get 100% damage on him + 150% aoe damage [Which might be dotspreads, by the way, and in that case it will be 150% dot damage too]. Repeating to make sure the message is clear: If your 100% is enough to kill unguarded, it is enough to kill a guarding, because guarding < unguarded, and that is due to guarding always being unguarded, just with a chance of extra damage. If your 100% isn't good enough to kill an unguarded DPS, you should cry for nerfs about DCDs and heals, not guards "

In context, you can see the that what I meant in the red text was a form of sarcasm. What I meant is "if you can't kill a dps that is guarding then you are bad, or we have another problem", but as no one complains lately about PT/Jugg/sin who play DPS spec being OP and too hard to kill, quite the opposite for the 1st two, in fact. So that gotta mean that the solution should always be simple and doable as killing the guarding DPS, and if people are not good enough to do that, then they can't be considered good. The way you cut it off as if I said there is a legitimate reason to cry for nerfs of DCDs and damage was totally NOT what the point was.

2) Yes skanks are insane in the right groups, most OP thing to ever happen in swtor, which is why you like to play it? just saying ^^. Don't get why people playing "Tanks" feel they are inherently entitled to keep Guard at 50%, when it is clearly OP and has been always. And play Skanks, which can be described, as the most OP Hybrid spec ever in swtor (can show why with math too) at the same time.

You see tank dealing damage so you assume skank? Then I will have you know my crit is 525 and my alac is 0, while my defense chance is 30%, my shield chance is 42% and my absorption is 50%. I would hardly consider myself skank. The only changes I made to my gear is trading defense for Endurance (which is still within tanky considerations and is done by swapping the default enhancements for crafted or lucky loot crate versions, and then some more defense for power. I took defense down because the total loss was 6% while the Endu gained 20k and the power was doubled. I don't think you can insult me and say I use an OP hybrid composition for the simple exchange of a useless stat with a useful stat. Especially when I use this "hybrid" in hard and solo PVE content and it functions much better than "real" tank gear does even there. Try soloing the KOTET story in MM with a full skank or a full tank.... I use the optimal build for tanks for all aspects of the game, not exploiting the defensiveness of a tank spec as I truly play a DPS in PVP. I am NOT skank.

3) You suggest to protect the "Tanking" part at any cost? I think you will get this argument. For making a valid point, the examples above should take into consideration: Taunt, AoE Taunt and Intercede/Oil Slick etc. range, los, slows and CC.

Tbh I play an assassin, so among all things you said, the only things tank-exclusive are the taunts. Range, Los, slows and CC should be used properly by all specs. Anyway, I am not sure why you responded to this, because the lines you quoted were used to correct's someone else's mistake for saying real tanks are not being used in PVP, not for you.

In fact, now that I reread his words "Now you understand why tanks stats are not really used in PvP.", lemme ask you: My 2nd paragraph in the quote (which you used to assume I am skank) came as a response to prove this wrong: "why tanks stats are not really used in PvP.". How would my response make any context unless I used those tanks stats and was not skank? Anyway I hope corrected that assumption above.

Math shy ppl, plz read the conclusion! it is not what you expect! I promise.

 

Damage Dealer A attacks Target A. Target A evades as best as he can and throw in whatever CC, mobility, tricks etc. he has. Lets say he reduce overall dmg by 15% before counting DCDs. We call this Evasion 1. Then the Tank+Guard 1 comes along. He Taunts/AoE Taunt/Intercede and Guards. These are multiplicable at ~35%x.uptime (lets say 33%) and 50%x.uptime. He also adds 15% to Evasion 1, because his CC allows Target 1 to avoid more damage.

 

Doing the math: 100 dmg x (1-0,3) x (1-0,35x0,33) x (1-0,5x1) = 31% and.. with Guard of 25% it would be 46%

 

Baseline would be Target 1 using Evasion 1 of 15% that would bring him to 85% damage received.

 

So how much less damage do Target 1 actually take? what do these numbers mean? This is were it gets funky, and this is why Guard needs a huge nerf. % start to get really compounded above 50% because each % added is way stronger the higher it gets. Going from 0-1% is a 1% increase compared to 50-51%, which is 2% and going from 75-76% for a 4% increase.

 

 

Conclusion

So. how do we figure out how strong 85%, 46% (with 25% Guard) and 31% is compared to each other, beside the "obvious" percentages? We do the math and ask ourselves: If Guard was 50% wouldn't that suggest that it reduces the damage by 50%? We test this with time to kill. Lets for ease of use say time to kill is ~10 secs. Which makes 2 dps able to Burst someone in around ~ 4 secs, if he lose the 15% reduction from Evasion 1, during a 4 sec Hard Stun.

 

Time to Kill Comparion..........."Tankyness"

85% from 10 to ~ 11,8 s............+18%

46% from 10 to ~ 21,7 s............+117% (Roughly twice as tanky and what most ppl think Guard do)

31% from 10 to ~ 32,3 s............+223% (What some of us is saying is Insane and OP)

 

Look at those numbers... it is such a flawed design it is almost unbelievable right?

 

We would all have way more fun in PvP, if this was changed as soon as possible. I hope you all get it now and why we really need it changed. Whatever isle you are on, Pro Con etc. let us avoid even more Burst dmg, DCDs and more Healing, to try make up for a 50% Guard, that was sadly broken from the beginning.

 

Cheers

Red numbers are made up. Too many assumptions there. Therefore anything depended on them is inconclusive.

Yellow line is just wrong. Now, unlike proving a mathematical theory, in order to DISPROVE a mathematical theory, you just need to find a countering example. I will use extreme unrealistic examples, which involves just 1 ability per player, just to illustrate the general idea:

Let's take an average healer with 130k HP. He can heal for 30k per GCD. Tanks don't exist in this story, they don't play in the match. Should half DTPS mean twice the time to kill him? Unless he is a training dummy - certainly not. If you can deal 130k damage per gcd he will die in 1 gcd, if you can deal 65k damage (exactly 50%), how fact will he die? if you answer 2 gcds, you answer is WRONG, it will take 3 GCDs because he can heal 30k between the 1st and 2nd gcd with his own gcd. On the other hand, if you could deal only 1k damage per GCD, your logic says it would take 130 gcds to kill the guy, but in truth he will never die because he gains more than he loses per GCD.

Those were the simplest possible scenarios. 1 player, vs 1 player, no external factors, and only 1 ability, yet assuming 50% damage taken should have a linear connection to the time to kill is totally wrong. In the previous example, the currect math is: if healer does 30k/gcd healing and you deal 30001/gcd damage it would take you 130k gcds to kill him because in each the total balance of yours and his abilities is him losing 1hp, but if you deal 30002/gcd (which is but 1damage/gcd more, and 1 is nothing compared to 130k) you will kill him twice as fast (65k gcds), because the balance per gcd will now be -2hp instead of -1.

Now, add the fact that the game involves multiple abilities, offensives, defensives, movements, healings, stuns, slows, los, and all that is without the external interference of another player. Any attempt to make a linear connection between a single damage reduction or increase is absolutely ridiculous. I would not be surprised 50% damage reduction makes it 5 times longer to kill a guy, or 10 times, or even infinite times in certain circumstances (in which case a smart player switches a target. [infinite time, for example, is a stunned sorc healer with 20% hp who just phasewalked in range of 1 other healer who now focuses him, and is in LoS 50 meters away, you could kill him in 2 secs, now you just can't, let it go and kill a DPS while they are busy]

A merc healer who used his shield when about to be killed by a mara (even without the healing utility), didn't gain 20% more time to live, he gained another life, and the mara is now more likely to be the one dying. In conclusion, wrong set of assumptions to base your theory on.

Hi mathman, first of all your math is off. You have a bunch of numbers there that are unsubstantiated at all ("let's assume that..."). But let's assume that you're correct about your math -- I know you're good at that.

 

Even if you're right, so what? The whole point of guard is to deter you from attacking someone. Yes, it's 50% less damage for the guarded player... do you try to bludgeon a sent through GBTF, and complain "but he's only taking 1% damage! I can't kill him, and look at my math!"? I hope not.

 

Here's a solution: instead of tunneling through guard -- and as a result, having to deal more than twice the amount of damage you usually need to -- how about you try to kill the source of the guard? The tank is, funnily enough, not guarded. They can't be if they're guarding someone else. Internal/elemental damage is much less affected by DR than energy/kinetic (DoTs as well as certain heavy hitters such as force breach), force/tech damage is almost immune to defense chance (except defensives more or less), crits ignore shield (and pretty much everyone has more than 50% crit chance in practice with buffs and passives), AND you only need to deal with one target!

 

Guard is not OP.

So much truth in such a short post. I tried to explain your 2nd paragraph at least 3 different times though ("tanks are meant to make enemies not attack their teammates" rings a bell, Mannok? ), so don't expect this to sink in.

The 3rd paragraph I think I mentioned "only" twice, but who knows, maybe repetition will eventually make people understand. Keep fighting the good fight, We Guard the Guard!!

I'm just happy Bioware is making the game and not some of the imbeciles around here tbh..

Reminding you that BioWare are those who made the game the way it currently is, which is the way we IMBECILES like it while you, the only SANE guy in the world, don't like it.

If any of you imbeciles were Devs and had given, let's say Snipers 100% uptime on Triple damage. None of you could make an argument to decrease it, because: "That is how is has always been", "it is L2P" , "strategize", "Isn't Snipers supposed to be 1 hitting people...".. This is swtor! Yeah man.. swtor, swtor!

2nd use of the word IMBECILES. Kinda extreme considering that since your last post you were not directly attacked or offended besides having your mathematical theory disproven using more logical math (which you, by the way, forgot to even try to counter, why?).

If we were devs, we wouldn't base our development on "let's say a healer can sustain 20k group dtps, and make the boss deal 18k dps to make the fight easy", then be wondering how comes everybody wipes in seconds. Let's say this, let's assume that, let's ignore logical responses which include Math that explains plainly where are our mistakes. Math can't be wrong under 2 conditions: 1. You make no assumptions. 2. You follow the basic rules. You failed the 1st one for assuming a few numbers that I marked red in my last post and reaching one illogical axiom which I marked yellow and explained thoroughly why it makes no sense. We did not fail to follow the rules, so unless you point out clearly where is our math wrong (= where are our hidden assumptions or wrong axioms or where is our failure to follow a mathematic rule).

Alternatively, you could bring up an entirely different acceptable reason for the need to remove guard. But either way, your "math" as it stands is discarded, don't use that.

Until you do either, we are right and therefore you are wrong and calling us imbeciles is just the childish way to avoid facing that truth. Either mentally grow up and make a logical reaction or abandon the discussion.

So have fun in lala land.. If I was Dev, game would be fun and ******* like you would be publicly shamed with sarcasm in State of the game dev posts.. I would get famous on twitter for making fun remarks of "halfwit" people shouting more or less full blown retarded nonsense.

"Have fun in lala land" [= a known term for people who live in illusions, usually about themselves]... 1 word later: "If I was a dev, game would be fun and ******* like you would be publicly shamed with sarcasm in State of the game dev posts.. " [= "When I conquer the world when I grow up, everything will be good and I will pull back the underwear of all the bullies in my school who used to pull mine", welcome to lala land VIP, my dear ] and then: "I would get famous on twitter for making fun remarks of "halfwit" people shouting more or less full blown retarded nonsense" [=the green zone is just additional self-important "I would do everything better" lala land fantasies, the red is again senseless hate for people who are better than you in math or hate for the math itself because it is so good and againts you. Still waiting for your counter-proof, by the way...]

And also by the way "I'm just happy Bioware is making the game" and "If I was a dev" in the same post? Ahh I see, it is Mannok>BioWare>imbecile 90% of the players, riiiiight...

Welcome to the internet bois!

The internet contains Cisco, Wikipedia and mensa, it contains youtube and google drive, it contains **** and crime. The internet is the whole world with easier access, and you get to choose which places you choose to go through (until pop-ups divert you to dating sites ), and you can decide how these places will look for those who come after you, in the type of mark you leave there behind you.

So congrats, you almost single-handedly reduced the level of this thread from the level of a logical forum's argument to the level of a Youtube comment section of conspiracy videos. Sad to see another guy who sees the internet as a place to spew their nonsense in. I realize people must be keeping their distance when you do that IRL, but the internet is not the place to resort to (if you wish to retain your self-respect). The real solution is to stop spewing nonsense.

I used to treat you more seriously until I saw this last post. Even when you were offensive before I could excuse it with you being directly offended (or at least accidentally taking direct offense) from someone else. This excuse doesn't work here, even if you valued your math sooo much. I wrote long logical reasoning posts to answer who I thought to be a logical man. Maybe you were truly logical but even if so, you are clearly exhausted from it. I won't spend further time to respond to posts which have no value beside repeating a point "nerf" or "don't nerf", with additional "every1 who think otherwise is XYZ" and/or "I am the smartest guy in the world and can/will XYZ", because there is nothing to do to change such a guy's mind...

I am indeed happy Bioware is making the game and not some of the imbeciles around here...

...The whole point of guard....

No, just no.

The whole point of guard is a PvE Trinity design.

PvP is not even an afterthought in the design, that is why we are having this discussion. In fact as far as I can recall they have not given ANY thought to the role of tanking in PvP much less any single tank ability.

The key is it was a tank ability that they gave to non-tank builds in an infamous patch. They don't need to touch tanks, just remove the ability from non-tank builds like it was to start.

No, just no.

 

The whole point of guard is a PvE Trinity design.

 

PvP is not even an afterthought in the design, that is why we are having this discussion. In fact as far as I can recall they have not given ANY thought to the role of tanking in PvP much less any single tank ability.

 

The key is it was a tank ability that they gave to non-tank builds in an infamous patch. They don't need to touch tanks, just remove the ability from non-tank builds like it was to start.

Again, as a tank main myself, I'd be nothing short of thrilled if all the squishy dps couldn't guard someone when I'm far better equipped to do so.

But really if you can't dps enough to pressure a dps spec of a tank capable class, you have much bigger issues. No dps pt guardian or shadow is, say, a merc.

Heck just give mercs a guard and a taunt and they'd be better than any tank XD

In fact, this reccomendstion might backfire on you as getting rid of the squishy wannabees would free targets (including them) up for me to guard lol

Again though, I literally spend months maining a vigi guardian out of protest to this change and would be nothing short of delighted if it went back to being a tanks only thing.

Ps: dps DISCIPLINES always had guard (it went with the advanced class) but they had to change STANCE to do so. Which I would assume gimped their damage somehow. Idk since I've always gone either vigi or defense, never tried to be a squishy vigi tank (which is NOT a thing). Well unless you count tanking karagga as a vigi guardian in a fail pug anyway.