The people who say they haven't had trouble with Shadow/Sin tanks 1v1, have not fought good ones. I can almost promise that there are a couple sin/shadows on each server which cannot be killed 1v1 and are almost unkillable 2v1.

The rebalanceing has to be incomeing, BH was rebalanced and it didn't have near the abilities Sin/Shadows have.

It's amazing what you can see with cherry picked screenshots. Nerf Juggs too, amirite?

It will be amazing when he does that same damage while guarding someone.

Oh wait...he won't.

It's amazing what you can see with cherry picked screenshots. Nerf Juggs too, amirite?

I'd expect a DPS spec'd Jugg to be able to DPS.

except that jug screen shot is only one where the ones i showed you are multiple.

So? Your sample size is still way to small to be statistically relevant, and being cherry picked means the sample is unusable anyway. Try using the combat log available on the test server to find out what the actual DPS of the various ACs are, then get back to us.

It will be amazing when he does that same damage while guarding someone.

 

Oh wait...he won't.

And yet he still managed over 17k protection. The fact that he did nearly 1 million damage in a single warzone without using guard is even more remarkable since it means he was getting less heals to keep him up. Either that or the healer was just standing back freecasting in which case guard would have been irrelevant anyway.

The point, for people who seem to have missed it, is that screenshots that show large amounts of damage are just trophies and useless for balancing classes. Let's see some of those parsed combat logs to see what's really going on.

So? Your sample size is still way to small to be statistically relevant, and being cherry picked means the sample is unusable anyway. Try using the combat log available on the test server to find out what the actual DPS of the various ACs are, then get back to us.

 

 

 

And yet he still managed over 17k protection. The fact that he did nearly 1 million damage in a single warzone without using guard is even more remarkable since it means he was getting less heals to keep him up. Either that or the healer was just standing back freecasting in which case guard would have been irrelevant anyway.

 

The point, for people who seem to have missed it, is that screenshots that show large amounts of damage are just trophies and useless for balancing classes. Let's see some of those parsed combat logs to see what's really going on.

17k protection is nothing lol. He threw TAUNTS out, not GUARDS. I can play my Focus Guardian and easily get 25-50k protection just from taunts.

I'd expect a DPS spec'd Jugg to be able to DPS.

Maybe you should actually define how much damage is acceptable and how much isn't. All anyone ever says is "class so-and-so does 'too much' damage" without ever defining what 'too much' is.

Total damage screenshots are useless in this regard because variables like how much uptime on targets and how long the WZ lasts distorts the numbers. So you can use either straight-up DPS or just use a percentage. Is 2000 DPS too much? For who? A tank? DPS? A healer? Should a Tank do 10% less damage than DPS? 50% less? What about a healer? What are the magic numbers you think are acceptable?

17k protection is nothing lol. He threw TAUNTS out, not GUARDS. I can play my Focus Guardian and easily get 25-50k protection just from taunts.

That's nice. What's your point? Are you saying taunts are now apparently overpowered too?

PS: I didn't say he used Guard. Please to read the post you reply to.

That's nice. What's your point? Are you saying taunts are now apparently overpowered too?

 

PS: I didn't say he used Guard. Please to read the post you reply to.

You made it seem like 17k was a lot....

The point is that being able to do DPS numbers as a Tank in Tank stance that can guard is imbalanced.

Edit: Hmm, my quote disappeared.

The point is that being able to do DPS numbers as a Tank in Tank stance that can guard is imbalanced.

 

Edit: Hmm, my quote disappeared.

Did you notice in the screenshot I linked the DPS Jugg did more damage than any of the shots in the other link? So since none of the nerfherders are willing to give an actual definition of what 'DPS numbers' or 'tank numbers' are, or what percentage of 'DPS numbers' a tank should do, all we can go by is that the very best Assassin tanks in DPS gear still can't match the damage of a Damage spec.

Did you notice in the screenshot I linked the DPS Jugg did more damage than any of the shots in the other link? So since none of the nerfherders are willing to give an actual definition of what 'DPS numbers' or 'tank numbers' are, or what percentage of 'DPS numbers' a tank should do, all we can go by is that the very best Assassin tanks in DPS gear still can't match the damage of a Damage spec.

Oh please. Your entire argument hinges on a single fluke screenshot.

Dozens of screenshots of what Tankasins are capable of have been shown. Furthermore, that Jugg did zilch for healing (which matters because that adds to the survivability of the Tankasin), way less protection for 200k more damage in a fluke match.

Oh please. Your entire argument hinges on a single fluke screenshot.

 

Dozens of screenshots of what Tankasins are capable of have been shown. Furthermore, that Jugg did zilch for healing (which matters because that adds to the survivability of the Tankasin), way less protection for 200k more damage in a fluke match.

I think her (or his) point is valid.

How much is too much? You're obviously taking your metrics from silly scoreboard screenshots that don't tell the whole story, so that's not a good measure. It's perfectly plausible to refute one baseless screenshot w/ another, since neither of them mean anything when it comes to class balance.

Are we talking about damage per second? Total damage done? Burst damage? High crits?

What is the criteria for saying someone is doing too much damage, other than some random screenshot of a tank being healbotted through an entire WZ while spamming AoEs?

Why does it matter how much healing the Tankasin did, when he's only healing HIMSELF? It adds to his survivability by design, since the Tankasin is less sturdy than the other two tanking classes w/out it.

Neamhan is asking a very simple question. What are you basing your judgment on when it comes to damage?

I don't see why it's so hard to answer, if you think they do "too much damage". You must have some sort of basis to be saying that, right?

Why do you keep dodging the question w/ vague statements like "DPS numbers" and "too much damage" w/out trying to clarify your position. It's hard to take anyone seriously who can't even provide the basis for their own argument.

I think her (or his) point is valid.

 

How much is too much? You're obviously taking your metrics from silly scoreboard screenshots that don't tell the whole story, so that's not a good measure. It's perfectly plausible to refute one baseless screenshot w/ another, since neither of them mean anything when it comes to class balance.

 

Are we talking about damage per second? Total damage done? Burst damage? High crits?

 

What is the criteria for saying someone is doing too much damage, other than some random screenshot of a tank being healbotted through an entire WZ while spamming AoEs?

 

Why does it matter how much healing the Tankasin did, when he's only healing HIMSELF? It adds to his survivability by design, since the Tankasin is less sturdy than the other two tanking classes w/out it.

 

Neamhan is asking a very simple question. What are you basing your judgment on when it comes to damage?

 

I don't see why it's so hard to answer, if you think they do "too much damage". You must have some sort of basis to be saying that, right?

Bioware will determine what is too much. All I have to do is bring it to their attention.

Oh please. Your entire argument hinges on a single fluke screenshot.

 

Dozens of screenshots of what Tankasins are capable of have been shown. Furthermore, that Jugg did zilch for healing (which matters because that adds to the survivability of the Tankasin), way less protection for 200k more damage in a fluke match.

No, my entire argument is that none of the screenshots prove anything other than lots of uptime in very long matches. I'm glad you agree with me in that regard now.

My other argument is that until someone defines what acceptable damage for Damage, Tank and Healing specs are, none of the nerf posts here are anything more than opinionated whining since there can be nothing more constructive than 'is not! is too!'.

I think her (or his) point is valid.

 

How much is too much? You're obviously taking your metrics from silly scoreboard screenshots that don't tell the whole story, so that's not a good measure. It's perfectly plausible to refute one baseless screenshot w/ another, since neither of them mean anything when it comes to class balance.

 

Are we talking about damage per second? Total damage done? Burst damage? High crits?

 

What is the criteria for saying someone is doing too much damage, other than some random screenshot of a tank being healbotted through an entire WZ while spamming AoEs?

 

Why does it matter how much healing the Tankasin did, when he's only healing HIMSELF? It adds to his survivability by design, since the Tankasin is less sturdy than the other two tanking classes w/out it.

 

Neamhan is asking a very simple question. What are you basing your judgment on when it comes to damage?

 

I don't see why it's so hard to answer, if you think they do "too much damage". You must have some sort of basis to be saying that, right?

 

Why do you keep dodging the question w/ vague statements like "DPS numbers" and "too much damage" w/out trying to clarify your position. It's hard to take anyone seriously who can't even provide the basis for their own argument.

Thank you! Someone is finally getting it. The original poster goes and makes a suggestion to nerf Tank damage by at least 15% without providing any measurements or benchmarks to justify it. How is there supposed to be a discussion about that?

No, my entire argument is that none of the screenshots prove anything other than lots of uptime in very long matches. I'm glad you agree with me in that regard now.

 

My other argument is that until someone defines what acceptable damage for Damage, Tank and Healing specs are, none of the nerf posts here are anything more than opinionated whining since there can be nothing more constructive than 'is not! is too!'.

The "opinionated whining" as you like to call it, because you can't have a civil discussion, is just as valid as your blind defense of the class. It's all opinion ultimately.

Tankasin damage will eventually be adjusted. It's only a matter of time. Don't worry though, I'll be sure to bump this post whenever that day comes for you.

Oh please. Your entire argument hinges on a single fluke screenshot.

Does this make their argument more valid? Did you really think that Tankasins were the only ones who could do those kinds of numbers?

http://i.imgur.com/0hNY4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eqnyx.jpg

http://imgur.com/Tiihv

http://h12.abload.de/img/500ktyuox.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/kdgrP.jpg

Bioware will determine what is too much. All I have to do is bring it to their attention.

And you don't think that's a cop-out? You say they do too much damage for a tank class. Someone asks you how much damage a tank class should do.

Your answer is pretty much "I have no idea, I just feel like they do too much". That's not very sound, imo.

Does this make their argument more valid? Did you really think that Tankasins were the only ones who could do those kinds of numbers?

http://i.imgur.com/0hNY4.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/eqnyx.jpg

 

http://imgur.com/Tiihv

 

http://h12.abload.de/img/500ktyuox.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/kdgrP.jpg

 

 

 

And you don't think that's a cop-out? You say they do too much damage for a tank class. Someone asks you how much damage a tank class should do.

 

Your answer is pretty much "I have no idea, I just feel like they do too much". That's not very sound, imo.

It's as sound as you saying their damage is fine. What ultimately matters is if they get nerfed or not. I bet they will.

Does this make their argument more valid? Did you really think that Tankasins were the only ones who could do those kinds of numbers?

http://i.imgur.com/0hNY4.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/eqnyx.jpg

 

http://imgur.com/Tiihv

 

http://h12.abload.de/img/500ktyuox.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/kdgrP.jpg

 

 

 

And you don't think that's a cop-out? You say they do too much damage for a tank class. Someone asks you how much damage a tank class should do.

 

Your answer is pretty much "I have no idea, I just feel like they do too much". That's not very sound, imo.

And again, none of those players in those screenshots are in tank stance and able to guard another player.

Now a class that can do that much damage AND guard someone? That's too much.

31/0/10 Tankasins putting up big 500k+ damage games depends entirely on how much people are clumped up for wither to hit lots of people consistently, that's really about it.

If you're in one of those voidstar games where both teams have several healers and it's a big endless brawl at the door with everyone from both teams hanging out at one door the majority of the match and hardly anyone dying, they can put up really big numbers. Other than looking pretty at the end of the game, it doesn't really mean much of anything though.

ANYONE putting up the big 150k+ protection games means something similar, extended brawling at a door or turret with your guarded healer. Generally this means several healers too so there's cross healing on your guarded healer. Basically it just tells the story and composition of the match more than it is a credit to the player.

Ever see juggs get those 700k+ damage games? I won't say it happens a lot but it isn't super uncommon either. Does anyone feel that Juggs are a top damage class? I don't really hear much complaining about that. Once again, it just depended on how often they hit a bunch of people with big smashes clumped around doors and turrets.

The "opinionated whining" as you like to call it, because you can't have a civil discussion, is just as valid as your blind defense of the class. It's all opinion ultimately.

 

Tankasin damage will eventually be adjusted. It's only a matter of time. Don't worry though, I'll be sure to bump this post whenever that day comes for you.

I'm trying to have a civil discussion but no one will define what numbers we should be discussing. What else can this thread be, then?

My defense of Tank Assassins/Shadows isn't blind because I've actually seen some of the Damage Per Second totals taken from parsed combat logs on the test server from all three of the Shadow specs. What a Kinetic, even in DPS gear, can put out compared to a Damage spec looks perfectly reasonable to me. I'm waiting for someone to post some actual benchmakes of what they think is acceptable so we have a place to start a real discussion.

While strictly speaking all of us are posting our opinions, for some of us they are not uninformed.

I dont mind tanks at all.

What i do mind are tanks doing a decent dps, with several escape tricks, and taking huge amounts of dps and standing like a walking fortress.

I mean, cmon, on huttball some shadow/assassins, besides taking a huge amount of damage while they walk with the ball, JUST WALK THROUGH THE DAMN FIRE and score the goal.

Seriously, *** is that?

The way it is now, the shadow/assassin tank hybrid spec completly blows away the jugg/guardian class with their heavy armor when it comes to tanking.

This is wrong and u shadow/sins players know it.

It's as sound as you saying their damage is fine. What ultimately matters is if they get nerfed or not. I bet they will.

Their damage is fine, imo.

What those screenshots don't show is how little damage each of their abilities hits for compared to DPS classes. Or how much setup it takes to actually get to the "damaging" portion of their rotation, which can be disrupted by a single knockback or stun.

I play a DPS Sorc, Pyro PT, Anni Mara, and Tankasin.

The Tankasin's damage is far, far below what any of the other three actual dps classes can put out, even the Sorc. The Tankasin does survive longer, though, and can put up numbers similar to my DPS classes AT THE END OF A MATCH because he didn't spend as much time in the spawn area, or running back to join the fight.

Given any length of time and no deaths, ANY of my DPS classes will outclass my Tankasin for damage; it's not even close to a contest.

That's why basing judgments on stupid scoreboard screenshots is never a good idea. You're not getting the whole story.