As the tittle states, please stop telling people to go look something up online. Almost daily I see someone ask a perfectly acceptable question over general, and there are people who take the time to try to help the person out. ie on makeb the h4 savage skies, "how do you destroy the turrets?" we've all been there. we were all confused for a second, then either figured it out or got a response from the in game community. we said, Ty, they responded Yw, and we moved on. But there's always people who's default answer is to tab out and check online!

I mean are these people completely relying on outside sources to learn to play the game. I might be in the minority but i like to 'learn' how to play the game by 'playing' the game and not having it scripted to me by someone outside! it happened to last week on makeb doing the weekly [toboros courtyard] where you kill the golden fury "boss droid". The ops leader kept spamming 'oh make sure you check online for tactics blah, blah, blah' i dropped group because i can't stand that. I found another group recently that needed a tank, now my tank is in full 69 gear augmented and i've got over 38k health, and i've also tanked every boss, in every FP, Op, world boss fight there is I know how to tank. just give me the basics and i'll be fine! I don't need /want to have to tab out of a game to learn how to play it! I can learn to play the game from playing the game! (wow what a concept!) oh and btw for those that don't know how easy that fight is here let me explain it!

This is not an overly complex mechanic! and definately easily explained in chat in game.

If you're the type of player who wants to be given everything, doesn't like surprises and wants to have your hand held throughout the entire game (and unfortunately there are people like that) then go ahead go to the website and spoil everything for yourself. But there's no content in this game that a decent player can't figure out through playing it a couple of times or just with a few tips typed in through chat.

We're you guys using voice comm? Much easier to say that out than type it down too

Myabe the raid leader was busy spamming or trying to recruit people. During that downtime it may be a good idea to do a quick alt tab while the guy who is organizing that raid, well, is busy organizing that raid. When I pug HM raids, I always make it a point to ask if the person has done it before. If not I, i then "suggest" to watch a video or read up on dulfy while i'm spamming the fleet looking for more people. Is that the case in the raid group you were in?

If we're talking about boss fights on operations and such, while pugging, is a fair expection that if you havent done that fight before you at least read the tactics.

Dont see anything wrong with that.

And you don't want to read it on a web page (which already has been made) but you expect someelse to type it all that for you to read ? I just don't get this. Honestly.

There are some guilds that specifically ask people to not read tactics from guides, because they like figuring things out while playing, learning the mechanics and making strategies as they go. That's perfectly valid. But we're talking about a guild with a specific goal in mind.

When you're pugging, have the decency to read the tacts before you go in there. And seriously, why someone else has to type stuff for you to save yourself from alt-tab ?

Usually the guys who say 'look it up' don't really know how to do it themselves.

i think that's most of it! they don't want to explain it and take the responsibility for the wipe if it goes wrong. The thing i'm saying is that, they're asking you to look up the fight that isn't even that complicated! I mean what's so hard about typing when the aoe, thrash, knockback etc happens go click here, or kill the adds or whatever. Im not saying if it's a super complicated fight not to do some research first, but what's wrong with peer learning? even if you've watched the tactics online it doesn't mean success the first time you actually do it in game. Watching and playing aren't the same

i think that's most of it! they don't want to explain it and take the responsibility for the wipe if it goes wrong. The thing i'm saying is that, they're asking you to look up the fight that isn't even that complicated! I mean what's so hard about typing when the aoe, thrash, knockback etc happens go click here, or kill the adds or whatever. Im not saying if it's a super complicated fight not to do some research first, but what's wrong with peer learning? even if you've watched the tactics online it doesn't mean success the first time you actually do it in game. Watching and playing aren't the same

There's

1. Watching the fight

2. Peer learning (like you said)

The most preferable choice, to reduce the risk of wipes, so that people can get back RL and finish their agenda in game is as fast as they can is

3. Watching / reading AND peer learning.

The raid leader is already going to "peer teach you." It's going to help, even if just a little bit--for everyone's sake, especially for those who have cleared it before and want to get back to their other responsibilities, if those who have no idea how the fight goes alt-tabs and do some light reading while the raid leader organizes the raid.

It sounds like you are in a pick-up group. Pick up groups have a LOT of downtime. During which people mostly semi-afk, alt tab, take a water or bio break, and in your case, you could have probably do a quick alt-tab for some light surfing . Like you said the leader is already going to peer teach you (and everyone else for that matter). He is going to call out what made or caused some wipes, maybe type something in chat very quick when a major mechanic is about to happen, he/she also took the time to organize the said PUG---- and all one has to do is maybe get into mox or voice comm, if not then do a quick research while the PUG readies itself up.

I mean what's so hard about typing when the aoe, thrash, knockback etc happens go click here, or kill the adds or whatever.

Why do you want someone else to type something that has already been typed, probably much better worded, better formatted than what you can possibly do on ops chat ? What makes ops chat text much better than guides that are proven useful ?

If you can't be arsed by reading something in a web page, why someelse should be arsed to indulge you ?

even if you've watched the tactics online it doesn't mean success the first time you actually do it in game. Watching and playing aren't the same

That has nothing to do with this. Of course, specific group compositions, gear, etc will change everytime. Otherwise everybody would have gotten EC NiM on farm after the first week after tacts were release.

Yes, online guides aren't a guarantee. Nobdy said that. But neither is ops chat. Main difference is, in one case you can learn the basics of the fight in your own time, the second requires someone to type it for you and waste everybody else's time.

Why do you want someone else to type something that has already been typed, probably much better worded, better formatted than what you can possibly do on ops chat ? What makes ops chat text much better than guides that are proven useful ?.

I actually find it more easy to learn if I read the tactic at the same time as I look at the surroundings where the fight will happen. Instead of "there will be a random shield at place x" you can look at the area and think "oh, the shield is going to be just there, next to that rock!". I hear there's going to be aoe that has to be dodged, I can already think where to stand and where to dodge it without messing anything up. Not to mention that you get the strategy just before the boss, so you most likely don't confuse it with the strategies of the other bosses.

Of course, the same situation can be achieved if you read the strategy to that boss just before the fight, but that would also mean the group has to wait. So it's either that the group does nothing while you read or someone from the group explains the boss, and at least I don't mind explaining the strategies in most of the fights.

Oh look, it's this thread again.

So, having someone type out in ops chat the mechanics ("just give me the basics", "what's so hard about typing...") of a fight works for you. But the same person asking you to go read what dulfy has written on the same fight is off limits? Even though you could certainly find and skim what she has written in about 2 minutes, freeing everyone else up to go grab a quick bio and a drink. Yep, perfectly logical and reasonable argument you make here. /sarcasm.

Of course, the same situation can be achieved if you read the strategy to that boss just before the fight, but that would also mean the group has to wait. So it's either that the group does nothing while you read or someone from the group explains the boss, and at least I don't mind explaining the strategies in most of the fights.

The group either waits while you go read something already written about the fight.....or they wait while someone types out the mechanics for the umpteenth time because people can't be asked to go read something outside of the game.

We don't mind explaining mechanics in voice chat (and you will be invited to our guild's voice chat if you are joining us as a PuG, and strongly encouraged to join if you have not done the fights before). Because it is faster, clearer, and you can be reminded of upcoming phases during the fight. But if you force me to type them out, the entirety of the instructions you are going to get are "don't suck". If I'm charitable, and you are a tank, you might get "tank sunder, don't let him catch you or anyone else, CD on The End....and don't suck!"

The group either waits while you go read something already written about the fight.....or they wait while someone types out the mechanics for the umpteenth time because people can't be asked to go read something outside of the game.

 

We don't mind explaining mechanics in voice chat (and you will be invited to our guild's voice chat if you are joining us as a PuG, and strongly encouraged to join if you have not done the fights before). Because it is faster, clearer, and you can be reminded of upcoming phases during the fight. But if you force me to type them out, the entirety of the instructions you are going to get are "don't suck". If I'm charitable, and you are a tank, you might get "tank sunder, don't let him catch you or anyone else, CD on The End....and don't suck!"

Funny thing is, always if I join a ops/fp I'm unsure of or it's my first time (no matter if I have read a boss quide or not, because reading all the bosses at the same time doesn't help me remember all that), I ask if someone can explain the strategies or give me a moment to look up the strategies online before the fight. Every single time people have preferred to explain the tactics.

Someone with personal experience is likely better at explaining the encounter compared to a guide, because any strat is dependent on the person executing it. Since you have at least one person who ran something successfully before where he is a participiant, you'd assume what he knows is consistent with at least 1 piece of the encounter held constant, namely the guy explaining it. While most online guides have improved, they are generally still pretty bad at accounting for the fact that various groups have vastly different strengths/weaknesses. Of course usually the guy explaining it doesn't know either, but he should be a better first choice than a guide.

Honestly guides should be written like WoW's dungeon journals where it just lists what each abilities do and any noteworthy quirks. Trying to make any assumption about another group's capability is usually just a bad idea. It's better to say 'these adds hit for 5K and spawn 5 at a time with 50K HP each" and let whoever's reading figure out if they should burn it down or just tough it out. Depending on that group's capability both choices may be perfectly valid.

I enjoy reading mechanics before I engage in them. I'm also a huge fan of the "I'm new to this boss / FP, could someone please mention mechanics".

If someone says that, I will endeavor to explain each boss as succinctly as possible, because since the guy has asked for advice, he's gonna be actively wanting to listen to it.

I also believe if you have a decent amount of situational awareness, combined with intelligence, you can do ANY HM FP without knowing about mechanics beforehand.

Big circle under your feet and the boss did it? Probably not good for you to be in. Clickable thing beside the boss? Probably needs to be clicked when the boss does some sort of "rawr I'm immune till you hit this button" type of deal.

Adds in the fight? If they have less hp than the boss, and are going for something / the healer, probably meant to die. If they have more than the boss, or some immunity, or hit like a noodle, hit the boss and ignore them...

It's simple logic combined with being semi-smart and aware that can get you through anything you don't really know yet in terms of mechanics. If you don't wanna read stuff up, simply pay attention to more than your bars and use your noodle while you fight and you'll do fine.

As the tittle states, please stop telling people to go look something up online. Almost daily I see someone ask a perfectly acceptable question over general, and there are people who take the time to try to help the person out. ie on makeb the h4 savage skies, "how do you destroy the turrets?" we've all been there. we were all confused for a second, then either figured it out or got a response from the in game community. we said, Ty, they responded Yw, and we moved on. But there's always people who's default answer is to tab out and check online!

 

I mean are these people completely relying on outside sources to learn to play the game. I might be in the minority but i like to 'learn' how to play the game by 'playing' the game and not having it scripted to me by someone outside! it happened to last week on makeb doing the weekly [toboros courtyard] where you kill the golden fury "boss droid". The ops leader kept spamming 'oh make sure you check online for tactics blah, blah, blah' i dropped group because i can't stand that. I found another group recently that needed a tank, now my tank is in full 69 gear augmented and i've got over 38k health, and i've also tanked every boss, in every FP, Op, world boss fight there is I know how to tank. just give me the basics and i'll be fine! I don't need /want to have to tab out of a game to learn how to play it! I can learn to play the game from playing the game! (wow what a concept!) oh and btw for those that don't know how easy that fight is here let me explain it!

 

 

you walk into the instance and you start dpsing these "towers" down to about 20% there's one for every group member, you'll need the debuff from them later on in the boss fight. the main tank turns the boss away from the group, off tank gathers up adds when they appear. melee dps behind the boss, ranged up on the walls on the side of the courtyard. about every 45s the boss does an attack that will kill anyone that's on the floor infront of him. basically a giant laser. you've got plenty of warning when the attack happens, and then you run up onto the sides to join ranged/healers and wait out the attack, then go back down and repeat this until the boss it to about 20% health when he releases an aoe radiation burst, this is when you go kill the "towers" and get your radiation protection buff, then burn the boss down.

This is not an overly complex mechanic! and definately easily explained in chat in game.

 

If you're the type of player who wants to be given everything, doesn't like surprises and wants to have your hand held throughout the entire game (and unfortunately there are people like that) then go ahead go to the website and spoil everything for yourself. But there's no content in this game that a decent player can't figure out through playing it a couple of times or just with a few tips typed in through chat.

In most cases when people ask questions like "how do you destroy the turrets" It requires a lengthy answer. One people do not feel like typing out in general chat due to the specific nature of how to tackle the mechanic, as well as the character limit.

To be honest you should be looking it up FIRST and THEN asking in general if you have any questions.

We rarely use guides in my guild to learn the flashpoint or heroics. We actually have fun learning to do them and learning each other's abilities in the specific flashpoint or heroic .

But there are some people that want everyone to do this because a lot of times they are trying to rush through something and maybe that is fun for them but it is not fun for everyone.

There is no right or wrong way to do flashpoints and the ones that say yes you have to read the guides I will say no you don't have to. It may be what you like but like people say take everyone that is in the group in account. If there are more that don't want to read the guide and want to experience first hand than that is the way it should be done but if more want to read the guide then that is the way it should be done.

If you are going to Pug then I would suggest you find out what they expect and if it isn't what you like don't join. Find a group that is more your style and that way you will enjoy it which is the purpose of the game.

Also remember your idea of fun may be different than some. Just because some want to look up the stuff on the internet doesn't mean everyone does. We all need to remember there are different types of people and just because you may be one that likes to read about things before hand doesn't mean the next person should and we should not expect everyone to play as we do. We all need to learn patience and realize why our style of play may work for us it may not work for someone else.

That said be sure to check your gear. Even if you have modable stuff upgrade if it is not what you need for the flashpoint or heroic you are doing.

Sorry, I normally sit on the sidelines, but I have to reply to this one. I agree with the replies that suggest reading up on it first, then ask when you get there in game. I have helped so many folks in-game I have long lost count, and yes in voice is so much easier, especially when the person you are trying to explain it to is literally bouncing around the screen while they sort-of wait for you to type. I find I can't send paragraphs or even complete sentences many times before the novice has triggered the fight intentionally or accidentally. I have quit doing the early ops of KP, or EV because of all the novices who don't bother to study the run before hand. As the Gree ops encounter proved over and over, the veterans grow tired of explaining and "disconnect" so we bring in more new folks and start the typing all over again. The Toborro's Courtyard run yesterday was a classic. Novice tank with purple 66s and a 69, but a blue 58 saber hilt, had it explained to him twice with insta- wipe results when he couldn't even turn the boss away from the rest of the group and we stole agro on multiple occasions.

I don't mind helping, but you have to put some effort in yourself. The double points weekends put many seriously undergeared folks to level 50, and now they are showing up in the levl 55 flashpoint and ops runs with minimal class skills, and a carry-me-through-this attitude. Start by buying or crafting a purple 66 barrel or saber hilt. Most of these are gear check runs with serious enrage challenges for undergeared folks. That barrel or hilt costs less than the payouts from a single weekly Black Hole or Section X run. It isn't the only determiner of damage, agro, or heal ability, but it sure helps. Do some homework, get properly ready with some Basic gear, and let's go have some fun!

Sorry but when I start an OPS formed with pugs for KP/EV. I expect them to look up strategies. You'll get kicked instantly. I cba to explain year old contend for the lazy.

If doing EC I do little tactics and thats it

TfB and SV I do not pug since most pugs are clueless derps from Groupfinder who just want to get carried while doing ****all

The online explanation are usually mode detailed, but you shouldn't skip asking other players how they will engage this fight. Some of them are clueless teachers (just telling negative hint "don't do this", talking jargon without ensuring it's understood or giving part of the trick because the rest is obvious for them.) In this case you rather have to figure out what's going on from another source.

But if your group (not just you) don't mind to learn the hard way, feel free to experiment your ideas on the bosses. The discovery is fun too.

ie on makeb the h4 savage skies, "how do you destroy the turrets?" we've all been there. we were all confused for a second,

No.

ok lets just put this down to playstyles and that's that, i prefer to learn in game, and yes sometimes that involved dying and wiping. This way though i'm actually learning what's going on and i can apply the lessons learned to future situations. I enjoy the challenge and the discovery of figuring out what' going to happen next and how i'll have to react. The thing to that most people who 'suggest' go online is that you also spoil the encounter for people who are doing it for the first time.

The thing is i think this is more of a playerbase skill issue more than a game/boss mechanic thing. As a tank i need to know only a few things, interuptable? tauntable? (that info i can get right from clicking on the boss himself) LOS damage ( ie turn the boss), aggro swap, big burst damage (blow your deffensive cd's). you give me that information myself and any other tank that knows what they're doing and is geared for the encounter should do fine.

Same thing goes for healers and dps, except they should be asking different questions. like healer should be asking is there a cleanse, is there a time for group aoe heals, how hard are the mdps going to be hit by Aoe, etc. give a good healer that info and they should be fine.

I think in summary what i'm trying to vent here is that the people who are trying to learn the game through playing it. When they are asking questions in game they are looking for answers in game. They are not looking for an external resource for that answer. they are seeking help from people who have actual experience in it or that may even be willing to help 'walk' them through the encounter.

First, I agree.

In a great community this is how it should work

• If you feel like helping someone who requested it in general then send him a tell.
  
• if you don't feel like helping them, ignore them.
  

what normally happens

• If you see someone asking for help, troll them.
  
• keep trolling them , taking up more of your time then it would have by replying with a real answer
  
• flood the general chat with your "witty" trolling.