Abbyssion Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I was reading over the lore of the sith emperor and read how he had to do a whole ritual to absorb the strength of sith lords to make himself the all powerful sith emperor we know of in the game, But isn't this just the same thing Darth Nihilus did but without the whole ritual? Couldn't Nihilus had just cruised around space in the ravager eating Jedi faces and become the most powerful thing to exist? making the skywalkers look like ants before him? EDIT: omg totally derped the title... Edited December 6, 2012 by Abbyssion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradTheImpaler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I was reading over the lore of the sith emperor and read how he had to do a whole ritual to absorb the strength of sith lords to make himself the all powerful sith emperor we know of in the game, But isn't this just the same thing Darth Nihilus did but without the whole ritual? Couldn't Nihilus had just cruised around space in the ravager eating Jedi faces and become the most powerful thing to exist? making the skywalkers look like ants before him? EDIT: omg totally derped the title... Pretty much. Karpyshyn completely ignored the lore around Nihilus, so it's hard to compare the powers of those two. Nihilus gained his power by accident when he survived Malachor V, though. He was incredibly powerful, but that power was in its own way a weakness, because the scale of his attention (to planets full of beings) allowed a small group to escape his notice enough to sneak attack him. If the Exile and her companions hadn't stopped him, he would have gone on to drain the life out of the galaxy in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scathe Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Pretty much. Karpyshyn completely ignored the lore around Nihilus, so it's hard to compare the powers of those two. Nihilus gained his power by accident when he survived Malachor V, though. He was incredibly powerful, but that power was in its own way a weakness, because the scale of his attention (to planets full of beings) allowed a small group to escape his notice enough to sneak attack him. If the Exile and her companions hadn't stopped him, he would have gone on to drain the life out of the galaxy in the end. Couple things. The first isn't just about Karpyshyn ignoring the lore, since after Bane I don't really take much of what he writes as Canon, Bioware did the same thing. If you watch the Histories that they did again, they kind of go out of their way to completely ignore most of KotOR 2 like it never happened. Kreia's lore regarding Revan and all that doesn't seem to be mentioned, the eradication of Malachor V due to the Mass Shadow Generator, the second Civil War. It's just not there. They seem to have only really kept The Exile and given her a name. Talking with my friend about Meetra after the Revan book came out, we both had the same conclusion: Meetra didn't feel like the Exile from the game. They also played around a bit with Naga Sadow's history from the original Tales of the Jedi comics. The second is about Nihilus' power. It wasn't just his tunnel vision on a planet that was his weakness, it was his need to consume that was his ultimate downfall. Kreia says that he is a wound in the Force, much like the Exile is, only this wound consumes and destroys endlessly. He is Lord of Hunger for a reason, he needs to feast on the Force and the beings of the Galaxy. In the end, he would have consumed all life and then starved to death, eating away at his own essence until he was nothing. This is evidenced by Katarr, he consumed the entire planet, with the exception of Visas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendaryBlade Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Couple things. The first isn't just about Karpyshyn ignoring the lore, since after Bane I don't really take much of what he writes as Canon, Bioware did the same thing. If you watch the Histories that they did again, they kind of go out of their way to completely ignore most of KotOR 2 like it never happened. Kreia's lore regarding Revan and all that doesn't seem to be mentioned, the eradication of Malachor V due to the Mass Shadow Generator, the second Civil War. It's just not there. They seem to have only really kept The Exile and given her a name. Talking with my friend about Meetra after the Revan book came out, we both had the same conclusion: Meetra didn't feel like the Exile from the game. They also played around a bit with Naga Sadow's history from the original Tales of the Jedi comics. The second is about Nihilus' power. It wasn't just his tunnel vision on a planet that was his weakness, it was his need to consume that was his ultimate downfall. Kreia says that he is a wound in the Force, much like the Exile is, only this wound consumes and destroys endlessly. He is Lord of Hunger for a reason, he needs to feast on the Force and the beings of the Galaxy. In the end, he would have consumed all life and then starved to death, eating away at his own essence until he was nothing. This is evidenced by Katarr, he consumed the entire planet, with the exception of Visas. Ignoring KOTOR IIs lore was most likely intentional. Bioware didn't make KOTOR II and it seems like they go out of their way to avoid acknowledging it. Notice how much more emphasis they put on the first KOTOR which, while it was an amazing game, was not nearly as popular as KOTOR II? They didn't write KOTOR II so they want nothing to do with it. That's it in a nutshell, and it's pathetic. It isn't just something they should of skimmed over, considering she rebuilt the jedi counsel. I also agree that the Meetra we got in game doesn't feel like the Exile at all. I don't even remember having the option to act all psuedo mystical ******** in KOTOR II, let alone every line she said. Also they put way too much effort in to basically making her Revan's *****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ignoring KOTOR IIs lore was most likely intentional. Bioware didn't make KOTOR II and it seems like they go out of their way to avoid acknowledging it. Notice how much more emphasis they put on the first KOTOR which, while it was an amazing game, was not nearly as popular as KOTOR II? They didn't write KOTOR II so they want nothing to do with it. That's it in a nutshell, and it's pathetic. It isn't just something they should of skimmed over, considering she rebuilt the jedi counsel. I also agree that the Meetra we got in game doesn't feel like the Exile at all. I don't even remember having the option to act all psuedo mystical ******** in KOTOR II, let alone every line she said. Also they put way too much effort in to basically making her Revan's *****. Couldn't agree more. KOTOR II may as well be N-canon as far as Bioware and Drew are concerned. What happened to the Exile was undeserved, imo. As to the topic at hand. Nihilus' hunger had dominated his mind. His only thought was the next meal. This was his downfall. In reality, if Kreia hadn't been so conniving, Nihilus would have destroyed the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradTheImpaler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Couple things. The first isn't just about Karpyshyn ignoring the lore, since after Bane I don't really take much of what he writes as Canon, Bioware did the same thing. If you watch the Histories that they did again, they kind of go out of their way to completely ignore most of KotOR 2 like it never happened. Kreia's lore regarding Revan and all that doesn't seem to be mentioned, the eradication of Malachor V due to the Mass Shadow Generator, the second Civil War. It's just not there. They seem to have only really kept The Exile and given her a name. Talking with my friend about Meetra after the Revan book came out, we both had the same conclusion: Meetra didn't feel like the Exile from the game. They also played around a bit with Naga Sadow's history from the original Tales of the Jedi comics. The second is about Nihilus' power. It wasn't just his tunnel vision on a planet that was his weakness, it was his need to consume that was his ultimate downfall. Kreia says that he is a wound in the Force, much like the Exile is, only this wound consumes and destroys endlessly. He is Lord of Hunger for a reason, he needs to feast on the Force and the beings of the Galaxy. In the end, he would have consumed all life and then starved to death, eating away at his own essence until he was nothing. This is evidenced by Katarr, he consumed the entire planet, with the exception of Visas. I mentioned his ignoring the lore about Nihilus specifically because that's what the OP was asking about, but anyway, you made good points. Edited December 6, 2012 by BradTheImpaler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) In terms of strictly popularity I think the first Kotor game is greater than the second. That said I do wish we got more Kotor 2 references. I wasn't happy with what they did with Revan and less so with the Exile. Even if they were restricted to the voice actors they had back in TOR, they could have shown us some more of Handmaiden, Disciple, Jolee or Juhani in addition to Bastila. Secondly, Nihilus is similar to the Emperor, but there are key differences. He's sort of like a much more extreme version of him. Nihilus doesn't become more powerful by eating worlds, he simply uses them to feed his hunger. Everything including himself is consumed by the Hunger. In that sense, he's IMO better character because even though he's more overpowered, he seems to have paid a greater price for it. I'm not sure if this is the case for the Emperor too, but Nihilus is specifically drawn to force users, they are what are the most nourishing to him. He appeared on Katarr because the Jedi Conclave had gathered there, not because of the rest of the Miraluka population living there, even though he consumed them all together. I always suspected that he was a living weapon orchestrated by the True Sith Empire against the weakened Jedi back when playing Kotor 2, because he was a perfect instrument to weaken or destroy the Jedi by his actions alone. Edited December 6, 2012 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Both have pros and cons Sith Emperor: Can consume a planet but needed to set up a ritual first (con) Consumed the planet more thoroughly than even Nihilius according to Revan novel (pro?) Does not need to keep eating to stay alive (PRO) Nihilius: Can strip planets bare with a single word (PRO) Will die when he runs out of force users to eat (CON) So basically, Nihilius seems to have bigger feats than the Emperor (kept a ship together, destroyer a planet sans ritual) but he also wasn't as immortal - once he stopped eating others, he started eating himself. The Emperor however, is more immortal than Nihilius since he doesn't need to keep eating to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Nihilus would eat Emperor Vitiate's face .................my opinion , and I do not care ..........Nihilus > Vitiate ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCJK Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 He was very powerful, it's about 10th place in me top list... But i have many thoughts about him. Well, first of all, i want to say that all this is only my point of view, so it isn't confirmed by canon but isn't refuted by it too. Meetra Surik defeated Lord Nihilus because of her force wound, right. But almost all force abilities have their counteractions. As for force lightning, first time it seemed to be unstoppable, but we can see it can be blocked even with hands by powerful force users. I believe Nihilus force drain is overwhelmingly powerful, but it still can be resisted by powerful force users(but without wounds in the force) like from top 10 guys. So as for Lord Vitiate in this topic, he will just resist Nihilus' power and defeat him, he's almost equal to Sidious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartanik Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I cant see many similarities to be honest, allthough i understand why people talk about it. First and formost, Vitiate made that ritual to make it self imortal, he consumed a planet of all force, nathema was not only without life, but without the force as well, he made that ritual for a means of power.Not realy a necessety. We are talking about a person that can control minds of even sith lords and powerfull force users making him to do his will, for years. Playing the jedi Knight and one will have a better picture of the nature of Vitiate power. The whole imperial guard its dominated by him for example, he killed a darck council alone one time when revan was in dromund kass. Only very few individuals were able to resist, his dominance, and none after they were taken before in the past. Revan also JK for instance. Nihilius its completely diferent, as much i like him like many other Kotor II characters, i see being with all its power, completely dependent of it, to even be, the whole situation about him holding the ship, together, and him being on it traped, its the perfect analogy for what nihilius represents. A person like this, hostage of its own power it was doomed to fail from the very begining, it was just a matter of time. sufice to say the true living being nihilius died at malachor V. Not in the ravager. i cant see him even defeat the emperor, while Vitiate might be unpredictable, Nihilius is certainly not that. The clear case of power controling him instead of him controling the power. Vitiate control his power however, he controls everything, from what i can gather its his most feared ability, he controls his power also the power of others. Edited December 6, 2012 by Spartanik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephet Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 My personal opinion is that Nihilus, in terms of raw power, was > anything. However, he paid a price far in excess of what he gained; he was, as far as i remember Kreia putting it, "just hunger". No desire, no passion, barely intelligence, simply all-consuming, himself included. He was more of a force of nature than a force of being. The Dark Side taken to an extreme, aptly likened in this thread, to a black hole. I think, that if any of the sith in the empire was confronted with the pros and cons of Nihilus... That none of them, power hungry as they are, would be willing to pay that price. They might be enticed and consider it, but confronted with the full scope of it, I sincely doubt any of them would take the deal. How is that old highlander quote again... "Better to burn out than fade away?" I believe that applies very much in this case ^^ It does beg the question... What the H was in his Holocron? And how/when did he make it? A force of nature doesnt exactly keep a diary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scathe Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ignoring KOTOR IIs lore was most likely intentional. Bioware didn't make KOTOR II and it seems like they go out of their way to avoid acknowledging it. Notice how much more emphasis they put on the first KOTOR which, while it was an amazing game, was not nearly as popular as KOTOR II? They didn't write KOTOR II so they want nothing to do with it. That's it in a nutshell, and it's pathetic. It isn't just something they should of skimmed over, considering she rebuilt the jedi counsel. I also agree that the Meetra we got in game doesn't feel like the Exile at all. I don't even remember having the option to act all psuedo mystical ******** in KOTOR II, let alone every line she said. Also they put way too much effort in to basically making her Revan's *****. I just think it's BS that they didn't want anything to do with KotOR 2 and deliberately left it out of the lore and story telling for TOR simply because they didn't make it, but decided to keep the little bits and pieces that they liked. Examples being Nihilus and "Meetra". Honestly if they were going to ignore it ever happened to the degree that they did, they should have just left the Exile out of it. I am one of the people that believes in the "All or nothing" approach when it comes to lore. Especially since, if you never played KotOR 2 and are coming into TOR fresh after the first KotOR, Meetra just seems like a tacked on character. She even feels that way in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I was reading over the lore of the sith emperor and read how he had to do a whole ritual to absorb the strength of sith lords to make himself the all powerful sith emperor we know of in the game, But isn't this just the same thing Darth Nihilus did but without the whole ritual? Couldn't Nihilus had just cruised around space in the ravager eating Jedi faces and become the most powerful thing to exist? making the skywalkers look like ants before him? EDIT: omg totally derped the title... He was very powerful and deserves to be at least in the top 5 most powerful Sith. He had mastered an ancient Sith technique which allowed the user to literally devour the Force, and by extension, Force users. So yes, he could have consuming the entire galaxy if he was not stopped - whether he would grow exponentially more powerful I can not say. He's like a black hole, he doesn't just consume the Force but destroys it, so I suspect it would only sustain him and not empower him. That I believe is the one drawback, he has become shackled by his hunger and therefore could never attain the sort of power and mastery over the dark side that Vitiate and other great Sith lords achieved. But he could destroy them. And guess what, guess what... it just so happens I wrote a short FanFiction a while ago on an alternate ending to KOTOR II - in which Nihilus lives and discovers the Emperor in the Unknown Regions. Go on, the links in my sig, give it a read. Edited December 6, 2012 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnsignSorrow Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think he only consumed force sensitives. It's worth noting that the Miraluka are a force sensitive species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think he only consumed force sensitives. It's worth noting that the Miraluka are a force sensitive species. He devoured all life on the planet too though. He is drawn to places strong in the Force however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradTheImpaler Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think he only consumed force sensitives. It's worth noting that the Miraluka are a force sensitive species. It's not that he was only capable of consuming force sensitives. Those just fed his hunger (temporarily) much more than other beings. But all life on Katarr was fed on by Nihilus---except for Visas, the only survivor, who said "every living thing on Katarr died", which seems to imply not just force-sensitive sentients. All life is touched by the Force, after all. Jedi are just exceptionally sensitive to it. By the time of KOTOR 2 his hunger was probably so strong that only other force sensitives could feed it noticeably, but if he'd gotten more desperate he could have fed on non-Force sensitives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Nihilus pretty much turned into the Ghost Rider of Star Wars, but yes, a lot of "Ummmmmm" lore aspects in Kotor II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueArab Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Ignoring KOTOR IIs lore was most likely intentional. Bioware didn't make KOTOR II and it seems like they go out of their way to avoid acknowledging it. Notice how much more emphasis they put on the first KOTOR which, while it was an amazing game, was not nearly as popular as KOTOR II? They didn't write KOTOR II so they want nothing to do with it. That's it in a nutshell, and it's pathetic. It isn't just something they should of skimmed over, considering she rebuilt the jedi counsel. I also agree that the Meetra we got in game doesn't feel like the Exile at all. I don't even remember having the option to act all psuedo mystical ******** in KOTOR II, let alone every line she said. Also they put way too much effort in to basically making her Revan's *****. They get $200 million to make a game, and they are being sour about not making KOTOR II? In regards to Nihilus, his weakness was his strength, in that he could consume an entire planet, but without that, he was essentially nothing. Given a perfect scenario, he could consume the galaxy to his death, or possibly even consume himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Bopper Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 IN KOTOR 2 Kreia says if you think these are true sith you are mistaken. Indicating the sith the exile fought were nothing compared to the true sith (The Emperor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 IN KOTOR 2 Kreia says if you think these are true sith you are mistaken. Indicating the sith the exile fought were nothing compared to the true sith (The Emperor) I wouldn't interpret it in that way. I think she was referring to the mindless, animal nature of Sion and Nihilus who had been consumed by the dark side and had no real understanding of it - they were just raw power, honed by Traya and then let loose across the galaxy like beasts. She could also be refererencing to the difference between the Sith as a culture and a nation, with ancient heritage and links to the old masters, and former Jedi broken by war and twisted by hatred into dark side monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jawa-Punter Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Bioware did the same thing. If you watch the Histories that they did again, they kind of go out of their way to completely ignore most of KotOR 2 like it never happened. Why not? I do that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Why not? I do that too. Opinion of the work matters not, only respecting the continuity matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skapek-Skocap Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) How powerful is a fire that can consume the world, therefore extinguishing itself. The greater is rages, the more is needed to keep it alive. And in the end, it consumes itself. Edited December 7, 2012 by Skapek-Skocap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelAlkaiser Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Nihilus doesn't make much sense. How does he supposedly do all of this consuming? A massive force storm? Does he open his mouth and shrink a planet to the size of an apple? How instanteous is it? Throughout all of the KOTOR2, you hear about the Lord of Hunger, whom consumed Katarr. Yet through the entire game, he actually consumes nothing else. He must not be that hungry if he ignores Sion and Vistas, who are constantly surrounding him. You can argue that is combat skills are greater than Sion and Traya's. Obviously not better than the Exile's. And while the Exile "was" a force wound, she regained her connection to the force as the game progressed. Which would effectively cease her from being considered a force wound. If Nihilus was actually capable of just consuming her, he would have stripped her of her force powers again, and she would not have been a threat. I think the reason BioWare ignored some of KOTOR2's lore, not only because they didn't write it, but they didn't want to trample the game. They took a certain amount of liberty, but obviously felt more comfortable centering on lore that came from their own development teams. I don't blame them one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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