One particular Scout build can potentially out-DPS strikes for a short period. Not everyone uses that particular build or ability.

 

As for turning fights, I don't do them. Ever. Turning fights make a scout into a sitting wet paper back when the opponent's strike or gunship buddies show up. I execute slashing attacks that leave me exposed for the shortest period of time possible, and never engage opponents that outnumber me.

 

I also don't engage other scouts one-on-one, but will engage strikes and gunships 1v1 because I have the ability to disengage at any time. I focus on speed and GTHO ability because as a scout pilot, I know just how killable they are when they get in over their head. Anytime I find myself on the small side of 2v1 it is GTHO time, because I only have so many cooldowns.

 

A lot of people here need to read the Dicta Boelke. Start applying those principles and you will be killing everything in no time, no matter what you fly.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Svarthrafn

As primarily a Scout pilot, I will say that in good hands (with enough practice), yes the Scout is currently the BEST 1V1 craft in the game. If anyone says otherwise, they are deluding themselves, or have not spent enough time/upgrades on the ship.

 

That said, this is a team game, and how often do you really find yourself in a 1V1 situation? I guess it's more common in PuG's, but why PuG when you can join your friends and actually use voice chat - the most OP thing this expansion... Trust me - ANY team with voice chat WILL win .

Well that's the thing though, the skill of the pilot. Strikes have extremely powerful directional shields and more hull hp. A scout is highly susceptible to shield piercing and range. Neither of these are giving one craft a significant advantage over the other. Considering what directional shields can do a strike can have virtual invulnerability for longer than a scout can.

 

true and I don't disagree with the idea that both starfighters being able to outfly the other depending on who has the greater skill. What I disagree with is the evasion mechanic which gives scouts RNG dodges in a twitch based game mode that can prolong a dogfight not because the scout is equally skilled but the accuracy penalty it applies requires a longer dogfight to shoot them down. Strikers survive based on pilot twitch skills as they will get minimal RNG dodges (10% evasion really isn't likely to make a difference the majority of the time) on the other hand it seems the argument in favor of evasion is that scouts survive on RNG dodges moreso than pilot skill.

 

It'd be like having a PvP ground match where you have to medium/heavy armor character who needs to manually dodge enemy attacks (GSF manually taking evasive action), perhaps in a mechanic that would be similar to manual blocking in Skyrim (to give an idea of what I'm talking about) with minimal RNG dodges going against a guy who is in light armor and can do the same manual dodges faster PLUS has a buff that gives him a sizable RNG dodge in case his manual dodge isn't enough. Yes the medium/heavy armor guy can still kill the light armor guy but he's contending with not only his opponent's twitch abilities but also his opponent's RNG defense whereas the light armor guy for all intents and purposes just has to contend with the twitch reflexes of their opponent. It may just be me but that doesn't sound balanced.

 

EDIT: as I've said in other posts I don't blame scouts for this and think they're OP; I blame a flawed game mechanic ported from a character stat based game mode but has no place in a twitch based game mode.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

^ I think sentawan has this figured out. If Distortion Field and Blaster Overcharge were both nerfed, the Sting/Flashfire would no longer be able to exceed the strikers in both offense and defense. It would just be a meaner, tougher, slower version of the base scout, which is what one would expect.

 

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

 

First of all, lets do a breakdown of the flashfire/sting and the other scout side by side.

 

Shield Regen Rate-

Sting/Flashfire: 74.8

Novadive/Blackbolt: 104.0

 

Max Shield Capacity-

1040 for each

 

Max Hull-

Sting/Flashfire: 1026

Novadive/Blackbolt: 950

 

Engine Power Capacity-

Sting/Flashfire: 100

Novadive/Blackbolt: 108

 

Engine Regen Rate-

Sting/Flashfire: 5.4/sec

Novadive/Blackbolt: 5.0/sec

 

Sensor detection is 2k higher in the Novadive/Blackbolt at 19.5k without buffs from abilities or companions. The Flashfire/Sting only can boost theirs through companions.

 

Evasion-

This is the tricky one. Stock with no abilities slotted all of them are 10%. With the abilities slotted they come with, the Flashfire/Sting has 25% without using cooldowns, and the Novadive/Blackbolt has 14%. Both however, have access to all the passive buffs, and can therefore be the same.

 

So in reality, if you think the 76 hull damage and the .4 engine regen rate make it meaner, tougher, etc...go ahead and keep thinking that. The things you EARNED by saving up the 5000 req for are the clusters and the quads. A fair trade off, considering you paid a premium out of the gate before you could even upgrade them.

 

Now, as for pilots of other ships that want Blaster Overcharge and Distortion Shield nerfed, and essentially nerfing all scout pilots who use those abilities, let me ask you this:

 

Do you have abilities that raise your accuracy?

Do you have abilities that grant damage reduction?

Can you plan a build that will help to negate the bonuses of scouts?

 

Answer to all three is most definitely yes. So if scouts are such a problem, why doesn't anyone want to plan a build for them? I'll tell you why. Because you found what you think is the optimal cookie cutter build for highest possible damage and you don't want to make the hard choice of utility vs maximum DPS.

 

Learn your class.

Play.

Take notes...and we'll revisit this in a few months time when there are more players AND ALL THE SHIPS ARE ACTUALLY IN THE GAME. Another thing most of you don't take into consideration is we aren't playing with a full deck here. There is at least one other ship that still isn't in game, maybe two, if the bomber isn't the cloaker.

 

HOW IN YOUR RIGHT DAMN MIND CAN YOU BALANCE A GAME WITHOUT ALL THE INFORMATION????

You can't. So stop trying.

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

 

First of all, lets do a breakdown of the flashfire/sting and the other scout side by side.

 

Shield Regen Rate-

Sting/Flashfire: 74.8

Novadive/Blackbolt: 104.0

 

Max Shield Capacity-

1040 for each

 

Max Hull-

Sting/Flashfire: 1026

Novadive/Blackbolt: 950

 

Engine Power Capacity-

Sting/Flashfire: 100

Novadive/Blackbolt: 108

 

Engine Regen Rate-

Sting/Flashfire: 5.4/sec

Novadive/Blackbolt: 5.0/sec

 

Sensor detection is 2k higher in the Novadive/Blackbolt at 19.5k without buffs from abilities or companions. The Flashfire/Sting only can boost theirs through companions.

 

Evasion-

This is the tricky one. Stock with no abilities slotted all of them are 10%. With the abilities slotted they come with, the Flashfire/Sting has 25% without using cooldowns, and the Novadive/Blackbolt has 14%. Both however, have access to all the passive buffs, and can therefore be the same.

 

So in reality, if you think the 76 hull damage and the .4 engine regen rate make it meaner, tougher, etc...go ahead and keep thinking that. The things you EARNED by saving up the 5000 req for are the clusters and the quads. A fair trade off, considering you paid a premium out of the gate before you could even upgrade them.

 

Now, as for pilots of other ships that want Blaster Overcharge and Distortion Shield nerfed, and essentially nerfing all scout pilots who use those abilities, let me ask you this:

 

Do you have abilities that raise your accuracy?

Do you have abilities that grant damage reduction?

Can you plan a build that will help to negate the bonuses of scouts?

 

Answer to all three is most definitely yes. So if scouts are such a problem, why doesn't anyone want to plan a build for them? I'll tell you why. Because you found what you think is the optimal cookie cutter build for highest possible damage and you don't want to make the hard choice of utility vs maximum DPS.

 

Learn your class.

Play.

Take notes...and we'll revisit this in a few months time when there are more players AND ALL THE SHIPS ARE ACTUALLY IN THE GAME. Another thing most of you don't take into consideration is we aren't playing with a full deck here. There is at least one other ship that still isn't in game, maybe two, if the bomber isn't the cloaker.

 

HOW IN YOUR RIGHT DAMN MIND CAN YOU BALANCE A GAME WITHOUT ALL THE INFORMATION????

You can't. So stop trying.

 

 

Also, just stop claiming the scouts exceed strikers in offense and defense. They don't. They exceed them in short BURST PERIODS, but not overall.

Really the thread is actually about the fact that scouts are performing like Space Superiority Fighters. Which makes no sense when you have the Striker trying to be so much the same thing.

 

Scout should be fast response and harassment fighters that rely on slashing attacks or "Knife" range attacks.

 

In the example of Domination scenario they should damage turrets and draw away defenders from control points or be fast reinforcements to falling control points, sprinkled with scouting > tracking > disrupting > eventually killing gunships.

I'd rather buff Striker shields than nerf Distortion. I'd also love to see a Shield that blocks shield penetration.

I'd rather buff Striker shields than nerf Distortion. I'd also love to see a Shield that blocks shield penetration.

 

As a striker pilot I'm actually very satisfied by striker shields("He's satisfied!!! nerf that") I don't need anymore shield for myself and I certainly don't need to have to take down more shield every striker I have to deal with.

 

I really do regret the title for this thread. Based on the conversation I'm seeing I should have called it "Scout, what is your role anyway?"

As a striker pilot I'm actually very satisfied by striker shields("He's satisfied!!! nerf that") I don't need anymore shield for myself and I certainly don't need to have to take down more shield every striker I have to deal with.

 

I really do regret the title for this thread. Based on the conversation I'm seeing I should have called it "Scout, what is your role anyway?"

I think that shield pen protection should be a unique Striker feature. Directional are OK 1v1, but Strikers don't have anything great for general combat.

I think that shield pen protection should be a unique Striker feature. Directional are OK 1v1, but Strikers don't have anything great for general combat.

 

Not sure I follow what your suggesting.

 

I use directional shields, they save my butt in head to head and let my rebalance my shields when one arc falls if i cycle through them. Also directional shields bring me back to my happy Tie fighter days.

I think that shield pen protection should be a unique Striker feature. Directional are OK 1v1, but Strikers don't have anything great for general combat.

 

 

Damage reduction *is* shield penetration protection.

Damage reduction *is* shield penetration protection.

Wouldn't mind if it were greater baseline, tbh. And it isn't awfully reliable, considering how every ship class has access to armour penetration of sorts.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Helig

Really the thread is actually about the fact that scouts are performing like Space Superiority Fighters. Which makes no sense when you have the Striker trying to be so much the same thing.

 

pretty much yes, the striker is supposed to be the space superiority fighter of the game (or multirole starfighter if you take the fleet req model). However, the upgraded scout is proving equally capable of this, largely I think because evasion makes them disproportionately hard to shoot down (not only do you have to overcome a good pilot manually taking evasive action, you have to account for components/abilities that give them RNG dodges). Their damage abilities wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have RNG dodges on top of manual evasive action that artificially gives them greater survivability than would be the case if scouts had to rely on their personal abilities at taking evasive action.

 

Perhaps the best indicator of how evasion doesn't fit in the GSF is watching scouts without striker support making attack runs on turrets and emerging relatively unscathed (I've both seen this happen and done it myself). IMO short of using tactics like an A-Wing Slash scouts shouldn't be have defensive abilities/stats that allow them to be successful in such attacks as it defies the whole point of having multirole strikers.

Strikers don't feel like they are meant to be space superiority fighters. They seem more like fighter-bombers, especially with their hard-hitting missiles, while the scouts are the more pure dogfighters.

i dont feel any ship is particularly OP

pretty much yes, the striker is supposed to be the space superiority fighter of the game (or multirole starfighter if you take the fleet req model).

Uhm no, the striker is not supposed to be a superiority fighter, like the name says primarily a strike or multirole plattform.

If you compare its design philosophy to todays fighter aircraft its the classic multirole fighter, strike fighter, fighter bomber or whatever you want o call it, capable of performing pretty much every mission without specialising too much on anything.

A true Superority Fighter is a far more specalizied tool. While design analogies only go so far and lines are blurred in the real world, a superority fighter optimized for stealth, speed, maneuverability for a tradeoff in firepower and protection.

Thats the scout in swtor. Its supposed to be the dominant dogfighter. You can use it for other stuff but it will barely useable. Strike fighters on the other hand are supposed to suck at everything. Its the tradeoff for being able to do every mission with them. Maximize your strength to exploit your enemies weaknesses

 

However, the upgraded scout is proving equally capable of this, largely I think because evasion makes them disproportionately hard to shoot down (not only do you have to overcome a good pilot manually taking evasive action, you have to account for components/abilities that give them RNG dodges). Their damage abilities wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have RNG dodges on top of manual evasive action that artificially gives them greater survivability than would be the case if scouts had to rely on their personal abilities at taking evasive action.

Yeah sure. So Scouts are supposed to have not only inferior firepower, weaker shields and less hitpoints but also no evasion? Good on. Lets take their speed as well so that everyone can finally catch and oneshot them. Afterall, there are only supposed to be targets for properly overarmored and overpowered strike fighthers Geez

 

Perhaps the best indicator of how evasion doesn't fit in the GSF is watching scouts without striker support making attack runs on turrets and emerging relatively unscathed (I've both seen this happen and done it myself). IMO short of using tactics like an A-Wing Slash scouts shouldn't be have defensive abilities/stats that allow them to be successful in such attacks as it defies the whole point of having multirole strikers.

Thats a very bad example. Turrets have few hitpoints, are slow to aquire targets and are stationary. As a scout you can use your speed to burn through their interception envelope for a duell with missile pods and max laser fire at point blank range. Thats the core of the scout fighting doctrine. Close up at maximum velocity, suprise the enemy and kill with a short but devestating blow. But try for a long range laser duel against mutliple turrets or just fly around in interception range. Once they have zeored in on you you will die within seconds.

pretty much yes, the striker is supposed to be the space superiority fighter of the game (or multirole starfighter if you take the fleet req model). However, the upgraded scout is proving equally capable of this, largely I think because evasion makes them disproportionately hard to shoot down (not only do you have to overcome a good pilot manually taking evasive action, you have to account for components/abilities that give them RNG dodges). Their damage abilities wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have RNG dodges on top of manual evasive action that artificially gives them greater survivability than would be the case if scouts had to rely on their personal abilities at taking evasive action.

 

Perhaps the best indicator of how evasion doesn't fit in the GSF is watching scouts without striker support making attack runs on turrets and emerging relatively unscathed (I've both seen this happen and done it myself). IMO short of using tactics like an A-Wing Slash scouts shouldn't be have defensive abilities/stats that allow them to be successful in such attacks as it defies the whole point of having multirole strikers.

 

You notice how everyone seems to completely ignore the evasion/accuracy argument your making which is the only valid point in this whole thread. If BW takes this out of GSF mode, no one will ever say scouts are op again, even with DF or BO. In fact I bet we would see a massive migration to strikes or GS. Not to mention that only those who really are good at piloting would ever use them. No scout would ever try a head to head with a strike, and hope to win unless the strike pilot was a complete moron in the cockpit.

 

Listen to Gavin all, he actually knows what he is saying. With the evasion/accuracy mechanic in GSF there is no piloting skill involved with scouts. This is what makes scouts OP currently, and its the only thing that does.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Troglis

You notice how everyone seems to completely ignore the evasion/accuracy argument your making which is the only valid point in this whole thread. If BW takes this out of GSF mode, no one will ever say scouts are op again, even with DF or BO. In fact I bet we would see a massive migration to strikes or GS. Not to mention that only those who really are good at piloting would ever use them. No scout would ever try a head to head with a strike, and hope to win unless the strike pilot was a complete moron in the cockpit.

 

Listen to Gavin all, he actually knows what he is saying. With the evasion/accuracy mechanic in GSF there is no piloting skill involved with scouts. This is what makes scouts OP currently, and its the only thing that does.

You want to nerf scouts so that only the very best players can use them? Really? so much fail. Evasion is just a stupid armor mechanic. Yes, its rng but so what? Scouts have weaker shields and hullstrength, there has to be some compensation. Rng or not, you and Gavin are basically arguing for further reducing the scouts survivability so that strike fighters can onshot them as well. Why? Because they are apparently supposed to be fast but nothing else.

In reality we are already getting oneshotted by upgraded gunships. Further nerfing survivability will only result in nobody touching the class since BW hole recon concept doesnt really work in GSF.

You want to nerf scouts so that only the very best players can use them? Really? so much fail. Evasion is just a stupid armor mechanic. Yes, its rng but so what? Scouts have weaker shields and hullstrength, there has to be some compensation. Rng or not, you and Gavin are basically arguing for further reducing the scouts survivability so that strike fighters can onshot them as well. Why? Because they are apparently supposed to be fast but nothing else.

In reality we are already getting oneshotted by upgraded gunships. Further nerfing survivability will only result in nobody touching the class since BW hole recon concept doesnt really work in GSF.

 

lol well if you had bothered to read everything gavin was saying. You would have realized he suggested adding in some stealth features for scouts, as well as that having the game dodge for you like in ground combat is dumb. Especially when your the one who is suppose to fly the ship. I would even go as far as making DF last longer. Besides its a freaking scout, they are not designed for survivability they are designed for recon, and quick in and out strike attacks. If you want survivability use a ship with heavier armor and shields.

 

If however you are so dead set against actually learning to manually evade attacks against you then the only balanced approach would be to give all ships the same evasion/accuracy stats.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Troglis

lol well if you had bothered to read everything gavin was saying. You would have realized he suggested adding in some stealth features for scouts, as well as that having the game dodge for you like in ground combat is dumb. Especially when your the one who is suppose to fly the ship. I would even go as far as making DF last longer. Besides its a freaking scout, they are not designed for survivability they are designed for recon, and quick in and out strike attacks. If you want survivability use a ship with heavier armor and shields.

 

If however you are so dead set against actually learning to manually evade attacks against you then the only balanced approach would be to give all ships the same evasion/accuracy stats.

 

Had you bothered reading the tool-tips, you would have realized that some other ship is already getting stealth, not scouts.

lol well if you had bothered to read everything gavin was saying. You would have realized he suggested adding in some stealth features for scouts, as well as that having the game dodge for you like in ground combat is dumb. Especially when your the one who is suppose to fly the ship. I would even go as far as making DF last longer. Besides its a freaking scout, they are not designed for survivability they are designed for recon, and quick in and out strike attacks. If you want survivability use a ship with heavier armor and shields.

 

If however you are so dead set against actually learning to manually evade attacks against you then the only balanced approach would be to give all ships the same evasion/accuracy stats.

 

And by manually evading attacks, do you mean by using your roll which has a 30% evasion mechanic?

lol well if you had bothered to read everything gavin was saying. You would have realized he suggested adding in some stealth features for scouts, as well as that having the game dodge for you like in ground combat is dumb.

Why is it dumb? The evasion mechanic is not fundamentely different from any other armor mechanic. Its rng based but in the end, a 30% deflection on shields which cant be bypassed would have the same effect over a longer period of time. To be honest, i would much rather take an 30% unpassable deflection than evasion.

But you are arguing to remove evasion entirely and therefore nerf the scouts surivability which is already the worst of any shiptype. So this has nothing to do with RNG, the hole problem lies in your inability to kill scouts quickly with overgunned flying tank.

 

And as for 'stealth futures', not thanks. We already have sensors dampening upgrades and there will be dedicated Stealth ships in the future. Scouts are superiority fighters and i want it to stay that way.

 

Especially when your the one who is suppose to fly the ship. I would even go as far as making DF last longer. Besides its a freaking scout, they are not designed for survivability they are designed for recon, and quick in and out strike attacks. If you want survivability use a ship with heavier armor and shields.

True, they are not designed for survivability. Thats why they have weaker shields and less hullstrength and are much easier to kill, even with evasion.

But they are designed to be the prime dogfighter in the game. They are the superoirity plattform. Thats what you keep ignoring. They are not just recon and speed. They are supposed to kill strike fighters in dogfights.

 

If however you are so dead set against actually learning to manually evade attacks against you then the only balanced approach would be to give all ships the same evasion/accuracy stats.

All ships can buff evasion stats! Geez, do you play GSF at all?

Rycer/Star Guards have 5% basic evasion, Quells/Pikes 9%. You can equip a +6% companion. And Quells/Pikes and Gunships even have the damn option do upgrade Lightweigth Armor!

You think Scouts are OP because they have a base evasion of 10%? For real??

Just fly a Pike if you like evasion so much and be done with it.

No seriously, if you want the same evasion armor i want the option to equiop Heavy Laser Weapons on my NovaDive. Afterall its OP if others have bigger guns.

Edited December 13, 2013 by AMightyKnight

Wouldn't mind if it were greater baseline, tbh. And it isn't awfully reliable, considering how every ship class has access to armour penetration of sorts.

I'll agree it does seem kind of devalued.

 

Question, do you take it? Do you take either the static DR bonus or the ability that grants it?

Hey ill will totally agree with you that you should be able to equip any blaster or missile you want on any ship, I think that is a great idea. However a scout ship is never a superiority fighter, its a scout. That means its weak and easily destroyed. If it wasn't there would never be a need for anything else. Their sole defense lies in there speed and maneuverability. Having your ship do all your dodging for you so that you can go head to head against a heavily armored and more heavily armed ship so you can win is dumb.

 

I guess the real issue is that they should have classified scouts as superiority fighters and not as a scout class. Please show me anywhere else where a scout anything is nothing but cannon fodder for more heavily armed and armored anything, in a head to head fight. I will happily agree with you then.

Yeah sure. So Scouts are supposed to have not only inferior firepower, weaker shields and less hitpoints but also no evasion? Good on. Lets take their speed as well so that everyone can finally catch and oneshot them. Afterall, there are only supposed to be targets for properly overarmored and overpowered strike fighthers Geez

 

Where are these mythical strikers that can one-shot a scout? You certainly can't mean missiles the hardest single hitter on a striker, they only mostly kill a scout and aren't really part of the evasion mechanic discussion anyway they pretty much hit or get out maneuvered in my experience. so you must be talking about one shotting with Lasers, which I don't see happening either, it still takes many volleys.

 

Strikers are also not tanks. Yes from the perspective of the scout everything is a tank, just like to me and my 6'-4'" height everyone looks "short". But the real tank is from what I understand, are the bombers.

 

OP really means "out of balance" and scout pilots are stacking way too well on the kill + medal charts and I can't believe it's simply more skill. Don't say kill/medal hunters don't do objectives, kills are still part of objectives. the fact is requisition rewards are based on medals afaik. which is also dumb because scouts are going to cap out on upgrades faster too, then what do they do?