It's also why I think the next great MMO will be made by a private group (if it happens at all) as they'll be able to take risks that companies like EA are afraid of.

Yeah, I agree with you there.

And I did say in a previous post, that I had thought about it, and that I think herosexuality would be a good idea in being able to end it all.

Oh, to be clear, the herosexual thing was me expounding on a point I've made before. Wasn't aimed at you specifically. But still, yes, it'd solve an awful lot.

And with your use of "be appalled" is very likely why they haven't come out and said "Not worth the time and money to go back into old content"

But see, that's the thing. It probably actually would be worth going back over the original content and make a bunch of small tweaks and changes (not just SGRAs but a number of things; class-specific content that's keyed to the advanced classes, for example so that levelling a Gunslinger is a bit different from levelling a Scoundrel, say). It'd freshen up the content and get people who've been into the game from the start interested in the original stuff again.

But even if it's not worth going back over it, that's a different reason than 'we don't want to'. Cost-effectiveness is a very different animal than lack of desire to include a given type of content.

But yes, that's probably why they haven't said either. Which is a shame, really. There's always someone who's going to be appalled by something. If I had to choose between the two I'd personally prefer to have people appalled at me for honesty than for being duplicitous.

But see, that's the thing. It probably actually would be worth going back over the original content and make a bunch of small tweaks and changes (not just SGRAs but a number of things; class-specific content that's keyed to the advanced classes, for example so that levelling a Gunslinger is a bit different from levelling a Scoundrel, say). It'd freshen up the content and get people who've been into the game from the start interested in the original stuff again.

 

But even if it's not worth going back over it, that's a different reason than 'we don't want to'. Cost-effectiveness is a very different animal than lack of desire to include a given type of content.

 

But yes, that's probably why they haven't said either. Which is a shame, really. There's always someone who's going to be appalled by something. If I had to choose between the two I'd personally prefer to have people appalled at me for honesty than for being duplicitous.

As a player, I actually would like it. Though, as a player with 6 50+ characters, and only planning on getting 2 more run through the lower levels (one of each class), I can see why they don't think it'd be worth it.

And now that the game is over a year old, I'm sure there's players who play much more than me, who have all 8 classes to 50 and would think updates to past content would be a reason to walk away.

So, this means no Companion SGRA?

Not in the 1-50 story content at least.

And now that the game is over a year old, I'm sure there's players who play much more than me, who have all 8 classes to 50 and would think updates to past content would be a reason to walk away.

Honestly, if someone finds an update to content they're past a reason to actually walk away, I'd disregard their opinion. That 'You must only update content I wish to play' attitude is selfish.

Honestly, if someone finds an update to content they're past a reason to actually walk away, I'd disregard their opinion. That 'You must only update content I wish to play' attitude is selfish.

Updating old content on something as insignificant as same gender romances would be great waste of time and resources. I say include it in the new content if you must, but focus on new content, not on recycling old one.

Updating old content on something as insignificant as same gender romances would be great waste of time and resources. I say include it in the new content if you must, but focus on new content, not on recycling old one.

Well done, you managed to completely avoid a key part of my point. I said retooling old content, including romances. Not exclusively romances. Plus this content isn't 'insignificant' to everyone who plays the game.

Honestly, if someone finds an update to content they're past a reason to actually walk away, I'd disregard their opinion. That 'You must only update content I wish to play' attitude is selfish.

But it's typical MMO player behavior. Look at this thread. "I only wish to play SGR content, don't update it and add it or I'm leaving"

It's the same attitude, just a different area of the game.

This is why adding a replay feature would help a huge amount, if they ever want to retool this content. In fact it would probably be the necessary first step.

Just curious, but do you know of any MMOs with a replay option that isn't "roll up a new character"?

Just curious, but do you know of any MMOs with a replay option that isn't "roll up a new character"?

The closest I've seen to that was when WOW completely re-vamped the 1-60 questing zones. Blizzard did a terrific job on the revision but the general reception to all that work was one of indifference. So I don't blame BW for not being keen to revise one part of one part of the leveling story. And then what should they do with the folks who've finished the stories? How do they reset the companion stories in a way that won't piss someone off? Reset the story? Reset the class story? Reset affection? Put an option to reset? As bummed as I am that I didn't get to see the Jorgan romance, I can't say I see any solution that is particularly satisfying. I'm not interested in rolling another trooper and a flat reset would simply mean watching all the companion scenes back to back in one go, instead of as a more or less organic part of the leveling process.

Even BW agrees that not including SGRs at launch was a mistake, but I agree with zzoorrzz, I'd rather see them move forward and make it a part of future content. Maybe we'll see Lemda and Cytharat as actual companions (I see them with weapons drawn every time I load the game. They must have some fight in 'em). And, yes, I think it's fair to ask that as they add new story content everyone who wants to fade to black with Kira, Ashara, Quinn or fuzzy ol' Aric should be able to.

Just curious, but do you know of any MMOs with a replay option that isn't "roll up a new character"?

None really, which is why it intrigues me as a feature - replay means replay VALUE. Diablo 3 has such a feature where you can load up any quest at any time in multiple different difficulty modes, and it's ALMOST MMORPG as it's always online, but I wouldn't really call it an MMORPG. But despite the backlash against D3 for the always online, it actually is a very sleek and very replayable system.

There's basically two questions here that bioware has to explore, the first is about how quickly they can put out content to satisfy their players, which a replay mode could give players something to do in the meantime, especially since a number of players want to revisit the companion conversations and class quests without rerolling. But that would have to be considered in light of Swtor wanting to make money off of selling players more server character slots. A balance, basically.

The closest I've seen to that was when WOW completely re-vamped the 1-60 questing zones. Blizzard did a terrific job on the revision but the general reception to all that work was one of indifference. So I don't blame BW for not being keen to revise one part of one part of the leveling story. And then what should they do with the folks who've finished the stories? How do they reset the companion stories in a way that won't piss someone off? Reset the story? Reset the class story? Reset affection? Put an option to reset? As bummed as I am that I didn't get to see the Jorgan romance, I can't say I see any solution that is particularly satisfying. I'm not interested in rolling another trooper and a flat reset would simply mean watching all the companion scenes back to back in one go, instead of as a more or less organic part of the leveling process.

 

Even BW agrees that not including SGRs at launch was a mistake, but I agree with zzoorrzz, I'd rather see them move forward and make it a part of future content. Maybe we'll see Lemda and Cytharat as actual companions (I see them with weapons drawn every time I load the game. They must have some fight in 'em). And, yes, I think it's fair to ask that as they add new story content everyone who wants to fade to black with Kira, Ashara, Quinn or fuzzy ol' Aric should be able to.

My recollection was that people actually liked the Cataclysm revamp, except for the usually vocal minority crowd that always yells about how they changed things so now it sucks or that it's "easy mode." And yet 8 million people are still playing, so after almost ten years they have to be doing something right.

I want to see future content too, don't get me wrong, but I think replay might allow some retention of players while we wait for that.

I actually wrote a giant post on the general board about the programming problems a replay system would pose but also the possible workarounds, but Ill only post it here if people are interested.

One option for Companion SGRAs in the leveling content, is to consider whether or not the romance conversations are separate of the rest of the conversations.

I would say that currently, they are. There are no prompts for romancing Mako on my female Bounty Hunters, because the romance conversations are separate of her "Finding the Family" story.

This means that, for example, the romance conversations added to Mako for female characters would the presumably be accessible post-10k affection, because they are new. They are not part of the conversation line that has already happened.

And with conversing with companions while at affection cap? That can be done already - the conversations are scripted prompts that occur throughout the storyline and, while they also require affection to unlock, you can go over on affection versus storyline progression or be under affection versus storyline progression.

I've not yet spoken to Bowdaar on my Smuggler, but I doubt all his conversations are suddenly gone simply because I've finished the class story.

One option for Companion SGRAs in the leveling content, is to consider whether or not the romance conversations are separate of the rest of the conversations.

I'm pretty sure they are.

Dulfy has a list of companion convos (with affection requirement triggers) on her blog and there seem to be specific romance ones separate from the regular ones (they have their own affection requirement).

Edit: link here ...shows a list of 'possible additional romance triggers'.

Just curious, but do you know of any MMOs with a replay option that isn't "roll up a new character"?

Depends on the part. In LotRO you can play through any given flashpoint-style mission, but any MMO allows that kind of replayability. In STO you can replay any mission at all (and you get a level-appropriate version of the quest rewards), so such a system does exist out there. Definitely not common but it exists.

It's a good point about whether the romances are separate from the companion class story conversation progressions. I had assumed they weren't, and came up with this replay option as a stepping stone to putting in SGR for players and existing companions.

But if those romance quests can exist after the other quests are completed, that might not be an issue. I suspect that they aren't though, because I suspect all companion quests are considered a quest chain, with some flagged as available or not depending on the gender of your player character, what level you are, where you are in the class story, and what affection you have. Meaning that in order to finish that companion's story, you would have to have skipped over the relevant companion romance quests in the process because they weren't available to you.

It's like a system of checks, have you done this quest yet? Okay, then you can do this one, but oh wait, you're not the right gender for that quest, but the next quest after that is available.

But it's typical MMO player behavior. Look at this thread. "I only wish to play SGR content, don't update it and add it or I'm leaving"

 

It's the same attitude, just a different area of the game.

No, sorry. I don't know a single person who's pro-SGRA who's ever said they ONLY want to play SGR content. Everyone I've spoken to on the matter wants to play SGR romance content (many, like myself, also want to play OGRA content) and also, you know, the rest of the game. It's not the same attitude at all. And in any case that's not even the point I was making. I'll repeat myself.

What I was saying was that it's selfish to threaten to leave the game because someone else is getting content updates in a form of content you don't play. Here, I'll even give you an example.

I don't play PvP at all. I accidentally ran into an enemy territory today and backpedalled well before the game could PvP flag me. I have no interest in it at all. I find no fun in it, I don't bother doing it, I avoid it whenever I can. I absolutely refuse to play games that enforce PvP because I won't be pushed into it; I don't even play competitive RTS games like Starcraft 2, I'll only play cooperative games or the single-player campaign. I truly can't express the depth of my disinterest in PvP. Heck, I don't even like competing for crafting resources and quest mobs.

But I don't go into PvP threads demanding that no time or resources be spent on developing it. I don't call it insignificant; I don't even consider it insignificant because lots of people do indeed enjoy it. I don't insult people who do it. I don't think less of PvPers. I certainly wouldn't block the development of PvP in the game with the single exception that I would indeed leave in a heartbeat if they enforced PvP. But even then I wouldn't try and take anyone with me when I left; I'd do so quietly and without fuss.

Why? Because I'm not so small-minded and petty that I think the whole game needs to be catered to my tastes alone. Do I want SGRAs in the game? Yes I do. Do I think that they should retool the original content? Yes I do. Does that mean I ONLY want to play SGRA content? No, it does not. Honestly I'd be happy if they did more work on PvP because it'd make the PvPers happier (presumably). I have no problem with them getting what they want. That's totally cool with me. It's content I'll never ever see and still I'm in favour of them working on and improving it.

So no, sorry, we'll have to disagree. There's a massive difference between saying 'I want this in because that's where my interests lie' and 'If those people get what they want then I'm leaving.' The latter is tremendously selfish and to boil all MMO players down to the same motivations is a gross oversimplification.

Honestly I'd be happy if they did more work on PvP because it'd make the PvPers happier (presumably).

Heh. I like the "presumably" there. Nice touch.

I also avoid PvP myself, as well as the PvP threads because of the arguments that usually go on in those, but yeah, I understand why it's included and why people like it and why they think it's important.

Heh. I like the "presumably" there. Nice touch.

 

I also avoid PvP myself, as well as the PvP threads because of the arguments that usually go on in those, but yeah, I understand why it's included and why people like it and why they think it's important.

Yeah, the arguments are the reason that 'presumably' is there. Still, there's people who will never be satisfied in every group (including the pro-SGRA crowd). I can't really speak about them because I don't think they're representative of any majority. Most tend to be quite reasonable people.

Or maybe I just meet the few reasonable ones by some freakish cosmic chance.

I'm pretty sure people who want SGR don't only want that. Actually, if I was asked if I preferred to get a SRG companion or 2 new warzones, I'd have to think about it...and after that, ask what kind of warzones.

Yeah, see, I'd go the SGRA companion hands down, but that doesn't mean I don't want to play the rest of the game (PvP excluded). And let's face it, one of the great things about the MMO game model is that there's no real need to choose; we can have PvP, PvE, RP-friendly areas, companions, OGRA/SGRAs, guilds, space combat...

No, sorry. I don't know a single person who's pro-SGRA who's ever said they ONLY want to play SGR content. Everyone I've spoken to on the matter wants to play SGR romance content (many, like myself, also want to play OGRA content) and also, you know, the rest of the game. It's not the same attitude at all. And in any case that's not even the point I was making. I'll repeat myself.

 

What I was saying was that it's selfish to threaten to leave the game because someone else is getting content updates in a form of content you don't play. Here, I'll even give you an example.

 

I don't play PvP at all. I accidentally ran into an enemy territory today and backpedalled well before the game could PvP flag me. I have no interest in it at all. I find no fun in it, I don't bother doing it, I avoid it whenever I can. I absolutely refuse to play games that enforce PvP because I won't be pushed into it; I don't even play competitive RTS games like Starcraft 2, I'll only play cooperative games or the single-player campaign. I truly can't express the depth of my disinterest in PvP. Heck, I don't even like competing for crafting resources and quest mobs.

 

But I don't go into PvP threads demanding that no time or resources be spent on developing it. I don't call it insignificant; I don't even consider it insignificant because lots of people do indeed enjoy it. I don't insult people who do it. I don't think less of PvPers. I certainly wouldn't block the development of PvP in the game with the single exception that I would indeed leave in a heartbeat if they enforced PvP. But even then I wouldn't try and take anyone with me when I left; I'd do so quietly and without fuss.

 

Why? Because I'm not so small-minded and petty that I think the whole game needs to be catered to my tastes alone. Do I want SGRAs in the game? Yes I do. Do I think that they should retool the original content? Yes I do. Does that mean I ONLY want to play SGRA content? No, it does not. Honestly I'd be happy if they did more work on PvP because it'd make the PvPers happier (presumably). I have no problem with them getting what they want. That's totally cool with me. It's content I'll never ever see and still I'm in favour of them working on and improving it.

 

So no, sorry, we'll have to disagree. There's a massive difference between saying 'I want this in because that's where my interests lie' and 'If those people get what they want then I'm leaving.' The latter is tremendously selfish and to boil all MMO players down to the same motivations is a gross oversimplification.

The problem I have is not that you want time and resources invested into this same gender romance thing. The problem is that you want to "retool" the old content. That's waste of time. We all know how slow they are with developing new story content. Lets not make it even slower by coming back again and again to change old content.

But if those romance quests can exist after the other quests are completed, that might not be an issue. I suspect that they aren't though, because I suspect all companion quests are considered a quest chain, with some flagged as available or not depending on the gender of your player character, what level you are, where you are in the class story, and what affection you have. Meaning that in order to finish that companion's story, you would have to have skipped over the relevant companion romance quests in the process because they weren't available to you.

 

It's like a system of checks, have you done this quest yet? Okay, then you can do this one, but oh wait, you're not the right gender for that quest, but the next quest after that is available.

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that.

Still, I'd hope that should they bring SGRAs to current companions, they'd implement it such a manner as to be 1-50 content, available to those who have leveled and maxed.

Though, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride I'd have a full stable by now with all things I've wished for over SGR/A's in this game.

The problem I have is not that you want time and resources invested into this same gender romance thing. The problem is that you want to "retool" the old content. That's waste of time. We all know how slow they are with developing new story content. Lets not make it even slower by coming back again and again to change old content.

That's why if they do any retooling, they don't have to do it all at once, they can get it done when they can. They can work on other stuff too. Even the people who want SGR I'm sure also want new story content. Pro-SGR people just also want some sort of indication they haven't been forgotten. I don't blame them for that. Makeb was a start, but there's still a ways to go.

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that.

 

Still, I'd hope that should they bring SGRAs to current companions, they'd implement it such a manner as to be 1-50 content, available to those who have leveled and maxed.

 

Agreed. Not really that fair to put people through 1-50 content with them hoping for some outcome, then implement the stuff they want then say lol nope gotta reroll to see it.

The boards would turn into an inferno.