What percentage of SWTOR's population only participates in PvP? What percentage participates in PvP at all?

I don't know the stats, but I'm reckoning it's a very small percentage. Point is: I don't think Cartel Market sales would take much of a hit if the gear grind were somehow removed from PvP. In fact, I'd wager they'd see an uptick in sales because, well, because math: more participants, more sales. Yes, I do think removing the grind would increase population. Obviously I'm just guessing (I don't claim to be psychic), but at this point, why not give it a shot? Seriously, what's the worst that could happen?

The idea of being on equal statistical footing from the get-go is not specific to Overwatch. It's specific to many games this decade. It's specific to adapting to the market and consumer demands. It's specific to common sense.

People these days, especially the younger generation and extra especially gamers, don't have the same kind of attention spans as seen in previous generations. Plus there are simply too many options, and many popular games available today only cost only time to play.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I just sincerely believe that only good things would result from eliminating the gear grind in PvP, so even though some may call it "silly," I'm gonna keep the dream alive.

I think "silly" is ignoring a clear opportunity for improvement because you're an old dog scared of new tricks.

All these "there-is-PvE-endgame" kinda games are often silly, as the hardest content in any MMO with PvP in them, is the PvP itself.

"True" PvPs and the few none-PvP hardcore players are often satisfied with a grindy, you have to earn you way through, reward progression. Most hardcore'ish PvPs are semi-masochistic, as they do not mind socking big time for 4+ days /played in PvP. But that same grindy mentallity is not present in perhaps more than 25% or even as low as 10% of a total player base.

Bolster is a way to make sure that new and more casual players, do not need to grind for weeks and weeks to be competitive numbers vice i PvP and for Flashpoints before being able to enjoy them. And at the same time making sure, that the actual hardcore'ish PvP types have a meaningful challenge as PvP is already a 75+% win rate / facestomp.

For these reasons I do believe, that it is mentaly backward to reward any player doing PvE with items exclusively obtained through PvE, as that content is the easiest by a large Foc'ing margin. Giving exclusive rewards from Easymode PvE is as bad as WoW. PvE is meaningful the first 1-2 times and becomes a complete waste of mental effort / time afterwards. PvP is always unpredicable and hard even at low and mid levels.

Anyways good day and fck PvE exclusive rewards tbh. Make PvE "end-game" on par with PvP end-game and not this reversed backward WoW mentallity. Bolster should be a help for none-PvP players and casuals to be able to compete not the other way around… wt… FCK ?

just saying

/fockpve

What percentage of SWTOR's population only participates in PvP? What percentage participates in PvP at all?

 

I don't know the stats, but I'm reckoning it's a very small percentage. Point is: I don't think Cartel Market sales would take much of a hit if the gear grind were somehow removed from PvP.

The fact that they are considering bringing back pvp gear means they clearly saw a massive drop in the pure pvp players. I think you're in the minority on this one man.

The reason they force us into a grindy situation is because it causes us to stay subbed longer. It might not be fun, but it works. The people who arent going to play arent going to play, the people who arent going to come back arent going to come back. I think the amount of people who TRULY (not possibly) make their full decision not to sub or return based off of gear grinds or otherwise is small in the grand scheme of things.

 

Otherwise they'd do it differently and put more time into these releases and things like Dsync.

I don't know, that just sounds like speculation. I still think they would bring in more profit if they reduced or removed gear grind for pvp. Listening to my friends and looking at other current popular games, suggests to me that gear-free pvp is in higher demand than gear-grind pvp. And it just seems logical. More even playing fields make for better pvp games.

Note: I support a "gear null out" in PvP for an MMO like SWTOR. It serves the PvP-only crowd with an esport style approach to PvP. That does bring complications to the rest of the content in SWTOR which do require and depend on gear (not everyone, probably no where near any majority in fact, does PvP-only in this or any other MMO). But the studio has so far made it clear they do not want PvP to follow an Overwatch model in an otherwise MMO format.

Well, I don't see the reason to stubbornly hang onto this gear progression model for pvp. But it is hopeful that they are considering bringing back pvp gear in the future, so long as it's easy to obtain, and accompanied by a well functioning bolster that allows pveers in pve gear to be competitive as well. (Players in high lvl pve gear should be bolstered to be on an equal footing with players in pvp gear, but again, simply making bolster max ilvl would be a lot simpler to implement.)

Hm, which complications would it bring to other content? It would just be separate and not affect other areas. It would be like the 4.x gear system just without a pvp grind, or possibly one just for stat weight tweaking for pvpers only. Maybe less demand for crafted gear, but I think the positives of better pvp outweigh slightly reduced demand for crafting. They could also add craftable cosmetic items. More incoming players would increase demand for crafting too ^^.

I don't know, that just sounds like speculation. I still think they would bring in more profit if they reduced or removed gear grind for pvp. Listening to my friends and looking at other current popular games, suggests to me that gear-free pvp is in higher demand than gear-grind pvp. And it just seems logical. More even playing fields make for better pvp games.

The WoW pvp community is literally begging for pvp gear back. The swtor core pvpers are begging for pvp gear to come back. Its less a matter of progression, more to simply separate pve and pvp. Both games have proven that removing pvp gear brought a massive drop in pvp player base.

I think you're in the minority on this one man.

I’m not surprised.

I tend to agree with much Wimbleton has stated.

While I have no issue with gear type, gearing and grinding, or even gearing options I nonetheless cannot dismiss the causes for PVPers discontent. It really is not an issue for me because I'm fine with any outcome. BIS gear or PVP.

I do tend to think that overall, PVP gear coming really would be the best thing. I know some of you guys have concerns about that but I think that if we look at the options as a whole in the long run PVP gear would probably solve a lot of the woes of PVPers.

PVPer/Raider mentalities will never been reconciled. It's impossible, they want very different things. Neither side is gonna budge on that. I say that not just in the abstract sense but as a former HM/NiM progression raider. You may as well try and have angels and devils hold hands.

I have to be honest, if BIS shared gear continues to be 'the way of things', I cannot advocate for full BIS bolster. If Raiders have to go through all that crap than you can't expect them to be okay with PVPers getting a free ride. And yes, that's what it would be., a free ride. They come all of a sudden and say 'Yeah we know we said this new gear grinding in 5.10 was going to be for PVPers too, but they'eve been ************ and we really can't stand to hear their whining any longer so we are given them a pass and still have all the stat gains PVEers will have to spending the next 3 months try to obtained and have to spends millions and gazillions of credits on". Raider's will go all heh A raider will hear only "A free ride". As for 'casual' players, they don't deserve or entitled to anything. If they don't know their class rotations they're already doomed and no gear will save them.

Remember when 5.0 dropped and the first 2 months we had 250 bolster in PVP? Everybody loved that, it felt Godly. Those numbers! [i can't lie sometimes it gave me a chubby]. No one complained so why did they get rid of it? Gear grinding.

Because as long as PVPers share gear with Raiders there's no difference between them and BIS gear was never fast and easy to get in PVP because it didn't have BIS gear before. PVP gear was fast and easy, PVE gear never was and BIS gear is PVE gear. They have the greater claim to it as that has always been their gear type. PVP gear can be fast and easy and no one will even mention that ever again. Raiders/PVEers won't care that PVP gear is fast and easy, as it should be, BIS gear, that shouldn't be IMO.

There is bolster in raids, SM raids, but it's still bolster and operates the same and for the same purpose, so if they can give PVP 258 bolster, there's absolutely nothing that would stop them from doing it in Operations if they wanted, on any difficulty. The system is already there.

What happens if now PVP gets the 258 bolster, and than raiders ***** and moan and say, this is BS, if they get it free, we should get bolster just like them. What would happen than?

No need for gear at all,ergo, no gear grinds, no reputation needed, no need to do Ossus more than once, no need for UCs or coms of any kind, no need for augments, no need for crafting, no need for resources, no need for guild buffs, no credit sink for insane repair builds that currently only raiders are forced to pay for at stupidly high prices everytime they die, no need for venders, and very shortly after all that, no need to sign on because no one has anything they need to do because they already have everything they 'need' already.

If they change things now and keep the 5.10 gear grind only for PVEers there will be a Civil War over it unless PVPers would be kind enough to lend them 5000 gazillion credits for BIS gear on the GTN.

I will back anything you guys think is best for PVP over all, even if it's not in keeping with my personal view. I'm with you. This is just food for thought - BIS gear in PVP is bad is for business and Bolster to 258 will likely cause a Civil War.

But, it's as good a time as any to have a Civil War. I'll make sure my Lightsabers are in good working order.

"Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the Dogs Of War" - Julius Caesar:

All these "there-is-PvE-endgame" kinda games are often silly, as the hardest content in any MMO with PvP in them, is the PvP itself.

 

"True" PvPs and the few none-PvP hardcore players are often satisfied with a grindy, you have to earn you way through, reward progression. Most hardcore'ish PvPs are semi-masochistic as they do not mind socking big time for 4+ days /played in PvP. But that same grindy mentallity is not present in perhaps more than 25% or even as low as 10% of a total player base.

 

Bolster is a way to make sure that new and casual players do not need to grind for weeks and weeks to be competitive numbers vice i PvP and for Flashpoints before being able to enjoy them. And at the same time making sure, that the actual hardcore'ish PvP types have a meaningful challenge as PvP is already a 75+% win rate / facestomp.

 

For these reasons I do believe, that it is mentaly backward to reward any player doing PvE with items exclusively obtained through PvE, as that content is the easiest by a large Foc'ing margin. Giving exclusive rewards from Easymode PvE is as bad as WoW. PvE is meaningful the first 1-2 times and a complete mental waste of time effort afterwards and PvP is always unpredicable and hard even at low and mid levels.

 

 

Anyways good day and fck PvE exclusive rewards tbh. Make PvE "end-game" on par with PvP end-game and not this reversed backward WoW mentallity. Bolster should be a help for none-PvP players and casuals to be able to compete not the other way around… wt… FCK ?

 

just saying

 

/fockpve

Like this guy.

Has every change been disappointing for you? That sounds like burnout. Even if BWA was doing a particularly bad job, a broken clock is right at least twice a day.

 

Everything changes. Find your inner peace.

Not every change, it just feels like that after the last 3 years. There have been some good ones, but they seem to get drowned out by all the bad ones.

I really liked all the 3.3 - 4.x pvp gearing changes and I liked the introduction of cross faction pvp.

I can’t say there has been much else I can think of in the last 3 years.

The last actual expansion I liked was Revan. Every expansion after that was

Not every change, it just feels like that after the last 3 years. There have been some good ones, but they seem to get drowned out by all the bad ones.

 

I really liked all the 3.3 - 4.x pvp gearing changes and I liked the introduction of cross faction pvp.

I can’t say there has been much else I can think of in the last 3 years.

 

The last actual expansion I liked was Revan. Every expansion after that was

You wouldn't like him as much if ya met him in TOS HM. Seems like every time you meet him there you inevitably end up lieing on the ground even though your not tired.

No social skills whatsoever. He's kind of an A-O actually.

You wouldn't like him as much if ya met him in TOS HM. Seems like every time you meet him there you inevitably end up lieing on the ground even though your not tired.

 

No social skills whatsoever. He's kind of an A-O actually.

LoL, probably not. He is a dick, but the lead up to him was fun.

I especially liked being able to still do real OWPVP on Yavin while I waited for pvp pops or while farming mats,

Pvp gear was still a thing and Flagging for pvp on the same instance as everyone was still a thing.

Doing story with someone in a group was “mostly” still a thing. At least it wasn’t as restricting as chapters are now.

I think the Revan exapansion was the last “true” MMO expansion in this game. The last 2 expansions have essentially been RPGs with side game content that was neglected till Keith came along (pvp, FPS and OPs).

No gear gaps.

Yes as long as, as I mentioned before, players with pve gear also get competitive stats in bolster, so we avoid situations like in the past where pveers in high ilvl gear got so little expertise they were weak compared to players in pvp gear. It appears some players who do both pve and pvp are unwilling to get 2 sets, even if the pvp one is easy, and not accommodating them will either lead to more uneven games or less players doing pvp.

If they change things now and keep the 5.10 gear grind only for PVEers there will be a Civil War over it unless PVPers would be kind enough to lend them 5000 gazillion credits for BIS gear on the GTN.

The new gear is meant for NiM ops, where the materials also drop, so why should it affect pvp. Gear progression is part of pve raiding.

players with pve gear also get competitive stats in bolster, so we avoid situations like in the past where pveers in high ilvl gear got so little expertise they were weak compared to players in pvp gear. It appears some players who do both pve and pvp are unwilling to get 2 sets, even if the pvp one is easy, and not accommodating them will either lead to more uneven games or less players doing pvp.

But that’s all relative to the situation. The same argument could be made that pvp geared players should get bolstered to be competitive in operations.

That just leads us back to only needing one set of gear in the game because there would be no difference.

Pvp gear always needs to be better than pve gear in pvp. The same as pve gear always needs to be better than pvp in gear in operations.

One of the reasons we had expertise was because the pve gear was always so much higher in stats than pvp gear. You couldn’t wear pvp gear into NiM ops and it be any good. The same as you couldn’t wear the top end pve gear into pvp and it be any good.

Bioware could have definitely done things better around the whole expertise and bolster setup,

What should probably happen moving forward is pve gear gets bolstered to what ever level bolster is set at for entry level gear and without set bonuses. It could require some people needing to be negatively bolstered and some positively bolstered.

Pvp gearing only works if there is a distinct difference between pvp and pve gear. Otherwise there is no point in having it and they may as well set bolster to max level for everyone.

But that’s all relative to the situation. The same argument could be made that pvp geared players should get bolstered to be competitive in operations.

That just leads us back to only needing one set of gear in the game because there would be no difference.

No, if someone does both pve and pvp they could gather only pve gear if they wanted, and use that for pvp too. The other way would only work on the low tiers of pve content. Having one same gear for both doesn't work because if there is to be gearing in pvp, it needs to be fast and easy to minimise imbalance. For pve however, gearing is part of the process, and much slower, the higher tiers at least. This new masterwork gear is being introduced for NiM GotM for example.

Pvp gear always needs to be better than pve gear in pvp. The same as pve gear always needs to be better than pvp in gear in operations.

Why does pvp gear need to be better than pve gear for pvp? What would be so bad about pve mainly players jumping into some occasional pvp and having an equal footing, not being a stat burden to their team? Material rewards from pvp could be in the form of cosmetics. It doesn't have to be gear.

But again, I think we should have access to gear via pvp, if only for stat tweaking purposes and basic pve content. Something similar to 4.x only with a better bolster.

Expertise needs to come back. RNG gearing has to go. We need more class balance to change the current 2+ year old meta.

We also need new expansion-sized PvP and PvE content that'll justify this seemingly months-long new gear grind, but we know that'll never happen so this upcoming gear grind needs to be canceled.

I highly doubt anything I've said will come to fruition, though. EAware is their own worst enemy when it comes to the development of this game.

Expertise needs to come back. RNG gearing has to go. We need more class balance to change the current 2+ year old meta.

 

We also need new expansion-sized PvP and PvE content that'll justify this seemingly months-long new gear grind, but we know that'll never happen so this upcoming gear grind needs to be canceled.

 

I highly doubt anything I've said will come to fruition, though. EAware is their own worst enemy when it comes to the development of this game.

Couldn’t agree more.

This is EAware opening presents at Christmas - gets a new blaster and automatically blows off a foot to see it will grow back next year.

Then EAwares birthday comes around and they get a new light sabre and automatically cut of the other leg because their other foot had not grown back yet.

The following year EAware ask Santa for a new foot, hand and leg - Santa sends them another blaster (Santa is a sadist)

Eric, I play since BETA and I tell you that the COMMUNICATION with the community is the key for a good game.

Thanks for this, it's almost what we expected but the fact the devs ACTUALLY READ the forums is what matters.

252 is not perfect but good enough to settle expectations, but devs listening and taking actions is what gonna make people not unsub.

Just an idea, how about you create an item rating ONLY for bolster? Like 256? This way the gap is even smaller and people who loves "min/max" still have a goal to chase.

A lot of people forget that nim gear had such high rating that it could match expertise gear. (I remember watching duels between nim raiders and pvpers on yavin4 in 3.0)

in addition they got a minimum expertise level just by being bostered, I think it was like 10%

in the old days tho, very few people actually had nim gear... cuz the game actually had diffculty

A lot of people forget that nim gear had such high rating that it could match expertise gear. (I remember watching duels between nim raiders and pvpers on yavin4 in 3.0)

 

in addition they got a minimum expertise level just by being bostered, I think it was like 10%

 

in the old days tho, very few people actually had nim gear... cuz the game actually had diffculty

This is true. NiM gear was always 2-3 levels higher in stats than pvp gear. It’s why we had a pvp specific stat (expertise) so that the devs didn’t have to keep uping pvp gear everytime they raised it for a new OP difficulty.

If we didn’t have the pvp stat, then raiders would have been coming into pvp with gear 2-3 times higher. People seem to forget that when they whine about not wanting expertise back. If we had pvp gear, we wouldn’t need to grind to keep getting higher and higher pve gear that we dont really need for the rest of the pve content.

Anyone who thinks getting two sets in 3.0-4.x was hard is deluding themselves. Compared to now it was a cake walk. Compared to what we are about to get, it was like getting given it,

The grind is about 20 times harder for pve gear and about 40 times harder if comparing it to the old pvp gearing.

Going back to the old system with expertise would allow people to get pvp gear in less than 2 weeks and pve gear for non ops could be worn with Bolster till then.

Getting pve gear for ops wouldn’t be needed by any except raiders. So basically no gear grind for the majority of players.

When we had pvp gear I could even do SM ops with no problem. So I didn’t even bother with 2 sets of gear. All I had was my pvp gear if I wanted to do 95% of the pve content. I never had a problem, even when NiM geared people would try and jump me in OWPVP.

Bringing back the old system is the best solution to the gearing problem in this game. Nobody but progression raiders like grinding gear this much. The rest of us don’t even need NiM gear to do any of the other content in the game.

The only reason pvpers will need it is because it’s availabe and if some have it in pvp, then all needed.

+1 for expertise return eric. Im giving you my vote now cuz I wont have forum posting soon.

I could explain all the reasons why expertise needs to come back... but I have a far better idea. for all of you who dont get it, say nooo I dont want to carry 2 set. do a wz. have some fun. right now. because right now? is how it used to be. everyone used to be equal. it took a week to gear up. then you ran in and had fun. you didnt get blown up in one rotation. you didnt lose half your hp to a 30k ambush.... this game used to be balanced and fun.... but we've all forgotten.. just bought into this god forsaken bs gear wins crap.

I cant tell how... both sad and happy todays wzs made me. it was like the good old days, when the game was fair.. and made money. and I also knew deep down...... it wasnt going to last. 6 months from now people in top gear will be obliterating all the new rerolls once more and nothing will have changed.

heres to expertise.. the last time this game had fun pvp.